Archive & Oblivion War -- who knows?

[g33k]

2 questions, here...

The Venatori know of the Oblivion War, by and large.

Q.1 -- Who else knows?  The OW relies heavily on keeping it secret; indeed the OW itself is about reducing the number of people who know certain secrets -- and writings recording those secrets -- to zero.

So... who (else, besides the Venatori) knows of the OW?



Q.2 -- Who knows of the Archive's role in the Oblivion War???

Damned few, I think... 

I don't think there's any real sign the Venatori themselves know of the Archive's role in it.  Many of them "know of the Archive," of course:  as "a signatory of the Accords" and as "a repository for human knowledge," the Archive is (to the Supernatural community at large) something of a "public figure" (albeit a reclusive or low-profile one; unlike, say, the White Court or the erzatz Reds, who keep/kept up an intentional image as dangerous and active).

But the Archive's role in the Oblivion War?

I think that knowledge is as rare (amongst those who know of the OW at all) as knowledge of the OW itself is, among supernaturals-in-general...  Possibly so rare as to be unknown, within the Dresdenverse; or only known to individuals like Vaderrung, or Mab, or Anduriel.

As has already been pointed out:  the Archive's obvious purpose is to collect and preserve knowledge / information; the Oblivion War's purpose is to eradicate it.  So the Archive has a "cover story" that's reasonably solid... indeed, I might wonder if some Venatori (ignorant of the Archive's genuine role) might conclude the Archive's known "collect/preserve" function is actually a huge threat to the Oblivion War!      

Thoughts?  Insights?  Facts I have overlooked?

[Yuillegan]

Interesting, interesting.

I imagine there would be a few supernaturals who are aware. Kringle I am sure. Mab. Any being with Intellectus that covers that sort of thing in the scope (so probably all Angels, fallen or otherwise). Naturally, the probably were also aware of the Archives role.

I would be willing to bet it was a "good" supernatural entity allied with humanity that helped create the Archive for that purpose, and it's secondary cover purpose. Kringle, or perhaps Thoth (if they aren't the same being...Thoth is the equivalent of Hermes and Hermes is the equivalent of Odin apparently).

As for mortals (and the somewhat mortal like the WCV)...I would say very, very few but the most senior know. And perhaps one or two very knowledgeable people (like maybe the Merlin or Gatekeeper).

It would be amusing if the Venators believed that the Archive itself was a threat to be forgotten. But I doubt it. I could see a rogue Venator zealot deciding that though. I imagine that as part of it's purpose, the end function when all the supernatural are consigned to Oblivion is to shut the Archive down. Perhaps a self-destruct is built in.

[Mira]

   Reading the blurbs about it, the main weapon is the Archive.   From what I read the Archive is the keeper of the memories of the dead, until it decides the memory of that particular being doesn't need
to exist anymore..  Zap!  That is that..  So maybe no one knows except the Archive.. 

[Arjan]

According to Thomas in Backup they tried to get rid of the fairy courts but Mab prevented that.

There was an old book on the table next to the candies, set carefully and precisely in place beside the dish. It was titled Kinder- und Hausmärchen. I leaned down and opened it. The text was in German. It was really old. The pages were made of paper of the finest quality, thin and crisp and edged in gold foil. On the title page, under the title, were the names Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm, and the year 1812.
             It was autographed, and personalized, “For Mab.” I couldn’t read the text, so I settled for the illustrations. It was better than reading those stupid celebrity magazines in every other waiting room, and was probably more grounded in reality

[g33k]

Reading the blurbs about it, the main weapon is the Archive.   From what I read the Archive is the keeper of the memories of the dead, until it decides the memory of that particular being doesn't need to exist anymore..  Zap!  That is that..  So maybe no one knows except the Archive.. 

The Archive serves 2 purposes.  As you note, she does the ZAPping -- she is the coup de grace.

But before she does that, she tracks every time someone commits anything to writing, and when she sees signs of an Oblivion Target, she dispatches an assassin (or if needed a team, presumably) to deal with the situation.

So she is intel/recon, and command&control (in addition to being Cap'n Zap).

[Con]

I assume Rashif as Gatekeepr would know. Blackstaff might as well. Rashid says the White Council only knows as much as it needs to. Aand that theres paperwork for coming back from the dead.

[Mira]

The Archive serves 2 purposes.  As you note, she does the ZAPping -- she is the coup de grace.

But before she does that, she tracks every time someone commits anything to writing, and when she sees signs of an Oblivion Target, she dispatches an assassin (or if needed a team, presumably) to deal with the situation.

So she is intel/recon, and command&control (in addition to being Cap'n Zap).

  I doubt that it does it directly, and I wouldn't be shocked if Ivy isn't even aware when it is being done.  I bet it is all very "Mission Impossible,"  nothing can be traced back to the source of the orders.

Quote
ccording to Thomas in Backup they tried to get rid of the fairy courts but Mab prevented that.

    There was an old book on the table next to the candies, set carefully and precisely in place beside the dish. It was titled Kinder- und Hausmärchen. I leaned down and opened it. The text was in German. It was really old. The pages were made of paper of the finest quality, thin and crisp and edged in gold foil. On the title page, under the title, were the names Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm, and the year 1812.
                 It was autographed, and personalized, “For Mab.” I couldn’t read the text, so I settled for the illustrations. It was better than reading those stupid celebrity magazines in every other waiting room, and was probably more grounded in reality

Or further back, in Shakespeare's "Romeo and Juliet" there is reference to "Queen Mab,"  which is a hundred and fifty years or more earlier.

[Avernite]

I assume Rashif as Gatekeepr would know. Blackstaff might as well. Rashid says the White Council only knows as much as it needs to. Aand that theres paperwork for coming back from the dead.

On the one hand, Rashid knows way too much.

On the other hand, how does the Oblivion War cross his path? It is about locking things away from Earth in the Nevernever, not about (so far as I can tell) locking things Outside. It seems greedy to make him also the Senior Councillor to know the truth about the Oblivion War and the Archive.

More importantly - we know the White Council SOP is the wrong counter for the Oblivion War even as it's great for diffusing dangerous rituals. I think anyone in the Council who knows can't be so solidly in power as the Gatekeeper or Merlin. Ebenezar? Maybe. Martha Liberty or Eldest Mai? Certainly possible, if more unlikely (Martha is supposedly about knowledge gathering). But the Merlin or Gatekeeper? They seem too big to know the Oblivion War and yet do the wrong thing.

As to who knows of the Archive's role; I would say the Angels are indeed good candidates (or at least intel people Uriel and Anduriel; does Michael have a need-to-know? Or even a need-to-consider, since he probably has Intellectus), but apart from that it's going to be a VERY short list. I suspect Anduriel hasn't told Nicodemus why the Archive was such a good candidate (because Nic becomes rather obsolete if Anduriel has his claws in the Archive). For all we know Anduriel whispered in the old Archive's ear to commit suicide.

The Fae probably know of the War, or the Grimm move would be strange, but they seem too vicious to not strike back if they found a specific target like the Archive. So if any of them know, Odin/Kringle and the Mothers seem the only reasonable ones.
Or, of course, one of the Fae started it, so Mab thought 'humm, our Archive is going after me, but I know how this works'.

Lara and Thomas seem to not know the Archive, so in general I would exclude the Vampire Courts; if anyone would know, it'd be in papa Raith's library (or his mind, and Lara has access to both).

From there we only know a handful; Dragons or Drakul? Possible, but no specifics. Old Greek gods? Athena could easily be one of the sources of the Fae (so see there) but otherwise would likely know, Hades has other things to do, most of the rest is too frivolous or aggressive (unless, as above, Hermes is now Odin). Maybe Apollo, as the god of the Pythia and other seers (though Gaia may have been the first worshipped at Delphi).

And of course, there's a sponsor. Of the people given who know, Uriel and Odin seem the most logical, but the matrilinear linkage suggests a female source to me (though Uriel could undoubtedly be counted as female if need be, the showings so far have been male, and we know from the Fallen that Angels do have gendered tendencies).
So who, then?

Of the maybe candidates given, I do quite like Athena; she fits as goddess of wisdom, and if her essence went into the Archive Ivy would be resurrecting an old part of her by patronizing Harry the Hero (and in the Odyssey, Athena is also often confined to giving advice from afar, rather than intervening directly). According to pre-classical analysis 'Athena' may just be the Athenian representative (and eventually name-giver) of a more general 'city goddess', and of course the Archive has a bit of sense of human civilization against the rest, quite fitting for a city goddess.

[Snark Knight]

I doubt that it does it directly, and I wouldn't be shocked if Ivy isn't even aware when it is being done.  I bet it is all very "Mission Impossible,"  nothing can be traced back to the source of the orders.
Or further back, in Shakespeare's "Romeo and Juliet" there is reference to "Queen Mab,"  which is a hundred and fifty years or more earlier.

I think WOJ is that Kincaid was leaving the orders as dead drops, but he didn't know what or for who.

I wonder what she's doing for dispatching orders without him around lately.


And in reply to Avernite, I wouldn't assume attempting to get rid of the Fae was a proper order that came down from the Archive. I find it hard to believe she doesn't know what Winter is actually doing, and how disastrous for earth it would be to cripple or eliminate the Sidhe. That could have been one of the monsters among the Venators deciding on their own initiative to try to eliminate Winter as "competition" and/or Summer for protecting humanity.

[Mira]

I think WOJ is that Kincaid was leaving the orders as dead drops, but he didn't know what or for who.

I wonder what she's doing for dispatching orders without him around lately.

If that is true, one does wonder if Ivy is aware of what the Archive is doing?  Also if the firing was purely emotional and ultimately will put her in conflict with the Archive.

[Avernite]

If that is true, one does wonder if Ivy is aware of what the Archive is doing?  Also if the firing was purely emotional and ultimately will put her in conflict with the Archive.

I assume the Archive has tricks up her sleeve to accomodate the occasional emotional decision. I assume the Archive must be carried by functional humans (even if only barely, though Ivy's grandma hired a bodyguard/assasin just fine) so some emotion will always bleed through.

[Mira]

I assume the Archive has tricks up her sleeve to accomodate the occasional emotional decision. I assume the Archive must be carried by functional humans (even if only barely, though Ivy's grandma hired a bodyguard/assasin just fine) so some emotion will always bleed through.

  Ivy's mother was able to take her own life, so strong emotion must trump the Archive.  I think that is what Luccio was getting at when she stressed the importance of the Host remaining emotionally detached.

[Avernite]

  Ivy's mother was able to take her own life, so strong emotion must trump the Archive.  I think that is what Luccio was getting at when she stressed the importance of the Host remaining emotionally detached.

Exactly... and yet the Archive is still a going concern.

Compared to her mother's suicide, Ivy firing Kincaid would be just a minor blemish.

[Mira]

Exactly... and yet the Archive is still a going concern.

Compared to her mother's suicide, Ivy firing Kincaid would be just a minor blemish.

True, nothing trumps her mother's suicide, however we do not know as of yet the consequences of her firing Kincaid.   Nor what all of that implies as far as her feelings for Harry.

[Arjan]

She needs to hire someone else. She has the knwoledge to make a good choice.