Perhaps a silly question

[kbrizzle]

What is the point of the Outer Gates? As in why do the Outer boundaries of Creation need a gate of any kind, especially when there are a lot of powerful beings who want to break in?

The only couple of reasons I could come up with are:

• Occasionally entities are banished to the Outside in the DV - although why not build an exit only door instead of a 2-way?
• Leaving an obvious opening in the Outer boundary in the form of a Gate would focus the Outsiders’ attack there instead of them trying to break the boundary walls in a million different random places
• The DV is built on freedom of choice & in order for there to be choice, the Outside has to be an option

What do you guys think?

[Yuillegan]

There is a WOJ that says something about how TWG said the Outsiders had to stay out of Creation, but gave mortals the choice to invite them in.

My guess is that there wasn't always Gates and Walls, but were built when the first Old Ones etc were invited in and subsequently kicked out/imprisoned.

Remember, a mortal mind has to make sense of the Outer Gates and as Harry is very literal he comprehends the Outer Gates as being a giant pair of gate doors. I suspect were he more subtle, and less limited in what he could comprehend, the Outer Gates wouldn't look much like Gates at all.

Your last bullet point is interesting...what exactly is the option of Outside?

[morriswalters]

Order and Chaos.  The Gate is where they meet.  What has always bothered me is that a gate implies a wall or a fence.  The only solution that comes to mind is that the Outer Gates are the tangent point, the one place where the Outsiders domain and our reality touch. So that there is no real wall, only the gates.

[Dina]

Like a portal, you mean? They can even be two physically distant domains with only a portal connecting them. But even then, why having the portal at all? I think it has a symbolic meaning, it is the representation of the choice to invite something...completely different, even if that means betraying your kind (sensu lato, anything from this side of reality). Or to leave it if you choose to cross to the other side. Just as Mab was not literally a mountain, a hurricane and I don't remember what other things Harry says, the Gates are not literally a pair of gates, the Pearly Gates are not literally Gates in Heaven, and the Apple of the Eden Tree is not an Apple.

[Con]

WOJ is the Venatori and The Archies purpose is to wipe the memory of particularly dark Demons and Gods. Ones that were defeated by Good Gods. Basically Cthulhu Gods and Demons. When enough of humanity has forgotten the name and purpose of Dark Gods, The Archive exiles them to the Outside. Thats where they become Outsiders.

Once you know that you understand how the Lords of Outer Night and the Fomor (an alliance of dark gods) are everybodies enemies.

[morriswalters]

@Dina

I don't have any idea of why Jim chose to use this plot device.  Maybe he watched too much Star Trek.  There is an episode called The Alternative Factor which might be useful in shedding some light.  The ending has two characters locked in an eternal fight in a space between to preserve this universe. That's all I got, other than the idea for order to exist there must be chaos and that you can't separate the two.

[g33k]

  WOJ is the Venatori and The Archies purpose is to wipe the memory of particularly dark Demons and Gods. Ones that were defeated by Good Gods. Basically Cthulhu Gods and Demons. When enough of humanity has forgotten the name and purpose of Dark Gods, The Archive exiles them to the Outside. Thats where they become Outsiders.

Once you know that you understand how the Lords of Outer Night and the Fomor (an alliance of dark gods) are everybodies enemies.

I've wondered if the Archive covers Outsiders...  It's unclear to me if the Oblivion War is exiling beings to the far reaches of the Nevernever... or to the Outside.

I've never seen a WoJ that makes this unambiguously and explicitly clear.

[Dina]

@Dina

I don't have any idea of why Jim chose to use this plot device.  Maybe he watched too much Star Trek.  There is an episode called The Alternative Factor which might be useful in shedding some light.  The ending has two characters locked in an eternal fight in a space between to preserve this universe. That's all I got, other than the idea for order to exist there must be chaos and that you can't separate the two.

Too...much...Star Trek?  *tilts head* I don't follow.

But yes, you may be right. I was not arguing about the existence of the Outsiders as a plot device but the "in universe" explanation for the presence of "gates".

[morriswalters]

Too...much...Star Trek?  *tilts head* I don't follow.

There may be nothing to follow.

There is no in universe explanation.  It's all very vague.  He sketches an idea and then leaves it to your imagination to fill in the blanks.  It's a gate in a wall with no endpoints, more notable for what it can do rather than what it is.

[Yuillegan]

I think the argument could be made that considering the Never-never is the term for all that is metaphysical made manifest, that is to say - a realm of thought and emotion, EVERYTHING that exists on that side is symbolic.

Especially the further you get from "base reality". And as the Outer Gates are about as far as you can get before you hit a plane/realm that is pure chaos and almost by definition has no rules...a Gate might be just be the symbol of connection between the order of Creation and the chaos of Outside...a threshold if you will.

Con - I think what you're saying is still just theory at this point. Jim once did explicitly say that we would never see much of the Oblivion war as it takes huge amounts of time for anything to happen. But the theory itself is good, and could well be true. Jim does lie!

[Bad Alias]

I've wondered if the Archive covers Outsiders...  It's unclear to me if the Oblivion War is exiling beings to the far reaches of the Nevernever... or to the Outside.

I've never seen a WoJ that makes this unambiguously and explicitly clear.

I think the lack of clarity is intentional.

[kbrizzle]

@morriswalters
That’s an interesting notion - that there is no wall but rather a conjunction point where the Outside meets the DV & a Gate was built there.

Still, why a Gate? And the existence of a Gatekeeper implies (extremely restricted) through traffic.

@Yuillegan
Agreed, but my point is why build a Gate at that boundary instead of something as close to impenetrable as possible?

@Dina
That was the only realistic answer I could come up with - the Gates exist because in order for free will to really mean something, the Outside also needs to be a viable choice.

[Yuillegan]

I think the lack of clarity is intentional.

I agree.

kbrizzle - I suspect you and Dina are correct in that the Gate exists as part of the whole Choice mechanism. However, the whole thing gets into the Problem of Evil argument...which gets dicey. Presumably until mortals existed there were no Gates however, and so I imagine it something to do with the creation of Man and the end of the Outsider reign.

[Bad Alias]

Agreed, but my point is why build a Gate at that boundary instead of something as close to impenetrable as possible?

So that Winter's forces can go out and defend the barrier. Recall that the battleground was outside of the Gate. (This is just a guess assuming some theory of the Gate being "built" is correct).

[AClone]

Too...much...Star Trek?  *tilts head* I don't follow.

But yes, you may be right. I was not arguing about the existence of the Outsiders as a plot device but the "in universe" explanation for the presence of "gates".

That one is simple. Because if there is a Wall, it is far, far better to be fighting on the far side of it than your own. And your guys have to go to that side to do that fighting.