Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"

[AClone]

The Archive is a general in a secret war. How is that neutral? She sends Thomas out to kill people. That's neutral? How?!

For starters, I think that you innately misapprehend he meaning of “neutral”. Several people seem to be.

“Neutral” does not mean “does not fight”. That’s a pacifist, or someone sworn to nonviolence.

From the dictionary: “not helping either side in a conflict, Disagreement, etc.; impartial”.

When two people or countries are fighting, she doesn’t help either. That’s does not mean that the Archive does not pursue its own purpose. It means it doesn’t help others with theirs.

Look at the example of McAnally. He is neutral, “out”, however you want to say it. And yet when an entity invaded his personal territory, he is free to defend that territory. That doesn’t make him “not neutral”. Nor does it when he helps a groggy Andi. He is still stubbornly neutral.

From the perspective of the Archive, the human race, this world are her territory, and she is doing nothing but defending it against threats. Not taking any side but her own.

The Archive is pursuing her own purpose in eliminating the threat of various monsters. She uses her minions, regardless of their other affiliations, to do so. She’s neutral. She doesn’t help anyone fight their wars, she only fights her own.

Please don’t confuse “neutral” with “inactive”. They aren’t the same thing.

[Mira]

Please don’t confuse “neutral” with “inactive”. They aren’t the same thing.

Thank you.

[AClone]

Doggone it, I came on here to actually post what I felt was an original thought.

I’m quite certain that when Ivy says “Your services are no longer required,” that Kincaid is fired on the spot. And he knows it, and won’t be coming back.

Jim even outright said in the discussion with the Peace Talks trailer that Ivy will be attending alone. You know how rare a direct answer like that from Jim is?

Now, unlike the svartalves, Ivy knows exactly how treacherous the Fomor are. She wouldn’t be attending alone if Kincaid still worked for her.

The thing is, I’m pretty sure that Kincaid also knows full well that these Peace Talks smell rotten. And whether he wants to admit it to himself or not, he cares about her.

I’m guessing that when it all falls apart, he’s waiting in position somewhere nearby (perhaps with a sniper rifle) to protect her—which serves to heal their friendship.

[Mira]

Doggone it, I came on here to actually post what I felt was an original thought.

I’m quite certain that when Ivy says “Your services are no longer required,” that Kincaid is fired on the spot. And he knows it, and won’t be coming back.

Jim even outright said in the discussion with the Peace Talks trailer that Ivy will be attending alone. You know how rare a direct answer like that from Jim is?

Now, unlike the svartalves, Ivy knows exactly how treacherous the Fomor are. She wouldn’t be attending alone if Kincaid still worked for her.

The thing is, I’m pretty sure that Kincaid also knows full well that these Peace Talks smell rotten. And whether he wants to admit it to himself or not, he cares about her.

I’m guessing that when it all falls apart, he’s waiting in position somewhere nearby (perhaps with a sniper rifle) to protect her—which serves to heal their friendship.

  I think the bottom, bottom line is Ivy's judgement in this case.  I am talking Ivy here, not the Archive.   Going back to what Luccio was telling Harry about the dangers of the Host not distancing emotionally from the Archive.   The crux of why Ivy fired Kincaid is because he went along with Harry's request to assist his suicide.  That is an emotional response, not clear is whether or not
the Archive sees it that way.   So if it goes as bad as Kincaid suspects, we have an emotional teenager in charge of the Archive trying to protect itself and others, where as before the firing that was mitigated somewhat by her body guard, Kincaid who might have a bit better judgement in this case into what is and isn't a threat to Ivy and the Archive.

[morriswalters]

It took a couple of books for Jim to reconcile Eb and Harry.  It will be interesting to see if Jim uses Peace Talks or Battle Ground to repair that relationship.

A couple of points for the short story.  Being able to reach the pedals isn't a necessary or sufficient condition for driving.  Documentation would be key, but it implies that the Archive owns a car.  I wonder what kind she would favor?

Also, I would expect that when the double cross occurs, that the Archive would bail.  While she can fight, to this date she has relied on security through obscurity.  Her true mission would seem to work best when she functions out of sight.

[Mira]

It took a couple of books for Jim to reconcile Eb and Harry.  It will be interesting to see if Jim uses Peace Talks or Battle Ground to repair that relationship.

A couple of points for the short story.  Being able to reach the pedals isn't a necessary or sufficient condition for driving.  Documentation would be key, but it implies that the Archive owns a car.  I wonder what kind she would favor?

Also, I would expect that when the double cross occurs, that the Archive would bail.  While she can fight, to this date she has relied on security through obscurity.  Her true mission would seem to work best when she functions out of sight.

   But that's the thing,  in Small Favor Luccio warns Harry that the Host still has control over the Archive.  Normally by the time the female candidate inherits the Archive she has had a life time of
emotional experience to insulate her from all the lifetimes of the Archive Hosts.  Ivy hasn't had any of that, she has just been distant until Harry came along, and to some extent Kincaid both attempting to treat her like a normal kid which she has never been.   

Luccio asks the question page 408

Imagine the results of the anger and bitterness and desire for revenge of all those lifetimes, combined with the power of the Archive and the restraint of a twelve-year-old child."
"I'd rather not." I said.
"Nor would I," Luccio said.  "That could be a true nightmare.  All that knowledge, without conscience to direct it."

While it is true that Ivy is older now, not sure her age, somewhere between 17 and 19, I am not
sure there is any evidence that she has made progress on how to keep the emotional distance between herself [Host] and the Archive.  So the question for "Goodbye" becomes was the firing of Kincaid merely a cold rational decision based on the facts made by the Archive who feels he is no longer needed to drive the Host around or protect the two of them?  Or an emotional one made by
Ivy because she is upset with Kincaid and is pissed enough to kill him using her power?

[Bad Alias]

For starters, I think that you innately misapprehend he meaning of “neutral”. Several people seem to be.

“Neutral” does not mean “does not fight”. That’s a pacifist, or someone sworn to nonviolence.

From the dictionary: “not helping either side in a conflict, Disagreement, etc.; impartial”.

When two people or countries are fighting, she doesn’t help either. That’s does not mean that the Archive does not pursue its own purpose. It means it doesn’t help others with theirs.

Look at the example of McAnally. He is neutral, “out”, however you want to say it. And yet when an entity invaded his personal territory, he is free to defend that territory. That doesn’t make him “not neutral”. Nor does it when he helps a groggy Andi. He is still stubbornly neutral.

From the perspective of the Archive, the human race, this world are her territory, and she is doing nothing but defending it against threats. Not taking any side but her own.

The Archive is pursuing her own purpose in eliminating the threat of various monsters. She uses her minions, regardless of their other affiliations, to do so. She’s neutral. She doesn’t help anyone fight their wars, she only fights her own.

Please don’t confuse “neutral” with “inactive”. They aren’t the same thing.

How does this make her any different than Marcone or "any other of a dozen neutral arbiters under the Accords?" Is Marcone also therefor bound by neutrality? Ivy might be neutral in the most dry, technical, legal sense, but in any practical sense of the word, Ivy is likely rarely neutral.

I would grant that the Archive could be largely neutral in a conflict between two targets of obliviation, unless she was the instigator of the conflict in the first place. I would also offer that she would take advantage of the weaknesses such a conflict would present to advance her agenda of obliviation. She probably wouldn't ever be totally neutral.

A good example of this the the White Council's war with the Red Court. Ivy ended it.

If not for Ivy, Harry would not have approached Vadderung. If Harry had not met Vadderung, he wouldn't have known to go to Chichen Itza. (Except that this is a fictional story that Jim would have worked out differently). The point is that Ivy took sides in a supernatural conflict to decisively end it in favor of one of the participants.

Ivy is a participant in the larger and ongoing conflict for power in the supper natural world with her own agenda. She may be neutral in this or that conflict, but the White Council and the Faerie Courts are also often neutral in a particular conflict. It doesn't mean that any of them are inherently neutral. I wouldn't be surprised is Ivy is never truly neutral in any conflict. I would expect the Archive to be constantly pushing things this way or that way. I think "undeclared" would be a much better descriptor of what the Archive is actually doing than neutral.

Further, we don't know the extent of the Oblivion War. Is Ivy trying to eliminate everything that is supernatural? The White God, wizards, minor practitioners? Is she only targeting certain supernaturals that prey upon humanity? If it's the latter, she will never be close to neutral in any but the narrowest sense of the word.

And the Archive is certainly not bound to neutrality, which was my original point. Arguing that examples of the Archive being neutral doesn't in any way mean that the Archive is bound by neutrality has convinced me that the Archive is seldom even being neutral. The Archive is, at most, bound to the appearance of neutrality.

in Small Favor Luccio warns Harry that the Host still has control over the Archive.  Normally by the time the female candidate inherits the Archive she has had a life time of
emotional experience to insulate her from all the lifetimes of the Archive Hosts.  Ivy hasn't had any of that, she has just been distant until Harry came along, and to some extent Kincaid both attempting to treat her like a normal kid which she has never been.   

Luccio asks the question page 408

Luccio is speculating in that conversation. She states that the many well known oracles were actually the Archive. These oracles helped sides in conflicts. They didn't meet the dictionary definition of neutral. If the Archive is neutral, Luccio is wrong that these women were the Archive. If she is correct, the Archive isn't neutral. If the Archive isn't neutral, Luccio is wrong about the Archive.

[Mira]

How does this make her any different than Marcone or "any other of a dozen neutral arbiters under the Accords?" Is Marcone also therefor bound by neutrality? Ivy might be neutral in the most dry, technical, legal sense, but in any practical sense of the word, Ivy is likely rarely neutral.

Well to begin with Ivy/the Archive is the living memory of mankind backed by a hell of a lot of magical power.  She can do a whole lot of damage all by her lonesome..  Marcone ain't in her league.

Luccio is speculating in that conversation. She states that the many well known oracles were actually the Archive. These oracles helped sides in conflicts. They didn't meet the dictionary definition of neutral. If the Archive is neutral, Luccio is wrong that these women were the Archive. If she is correct, the Archive isn't neutral. If the Archive isn't neutral, Luccio is wrong about the Archive.

Yes, and most were mad..  Oracles foretell the future based on the past and the information at hand..  That is pretty neutral because it is, what it is...  Now what the humans upon hearing the oracle do, or not do with the information is up to them.   Prophasies and omens cut both ways.

If not for Ivy, Harry would not have approached Vadderung. If Harry had not met Vadderung, he wouldn't have known to go to Chichen Itza. (Except that this is a fictional story that Jim would have worked out differently). The point is that Ivy took sides in a supernatural conflict to decisively end it in favor of one of the participants.

Actually Ivy said she couldn't give Harry any information.   Harry pressed further and she sent him to Marcone.   Harry decisions from that point were up to him, not exactly taking sides on Ivy's part.

[Bad Alias]

Well to begin with Ivy/the Archive is the living memory of mankind backed by a hell of a lot of magical power.  She can do a whole lot of damage all by her lonesome..  Marcone ain't in her league.

Your ignoring the point.

Yes, and most were mad..  Oracles foretell the future based on the past and the information at hand..  That is pretty neutral because it is, what it is...  Now what the humans upon hearing the oracle do, or not do with the information is up to them.   Prophasies and omens cut both ways.

Are you suggesting the Oracles had no idea what would happen when they provided such information? That they didn't profit one side over the other by providing such information? I'm just applying known facts to the definition supplied by AClone and endorsed by you.

Actually Ivy said she couldn't give Harry any information.   Harry pressed further and she sent him to Marcone.   Harry decisions from that point were up to him, not exactly taking sides on Ivy's part.

Telling him Marcone could help is giving him information. It is helping. It led directly to the destruction of the Red Court. Or is Ivy incapable of predicting that because she is completely unrelated to the Oracles?

[g33k]

... it implies that the Archive owns a car.  I wonder what kind she would favor? ...

The safest, most reliable, most practical, versatile one.

But, as noted, something low-key and good for "flying under the radar," so no WWII-era armored Mercedes!

I'm guessing something like an older police-modified (but civilian paint &c) sedan, nice & boring-looking (Ford Crown Victoria?  Chevy Impala?), with bullet-proof glass & armor in the body-panels.

Maybe one of the 4WD trucks / SUVs used by rural cops, rangers, etc?

Given the likely resources of the Archive, I expect cost wouldn't play ANY part of the equation.

[morriswalters]

The safest, most reliable, most practical, versatile one.

But, as noted, something low-key and good for "flying under the radar," so no WWII-era armored Mercedes!

I'm guessing something like an older police-modified (but civilian paint &c) sedan, nice & boring-looking (Ford Crown Victoria?  Chevy Impala?), with bullet-proof glass & armor in the body-panels.

Maybe one of the 4WD trucks / SUVs used by rural cops, rangers, etc?

Given the likely resources of the Archive, I expect cost wouldn't play ANY part of the equation.

I had a shocking pink Hummer in my minds eye.  My age is probably showing.


@Bad Alias
Just for the record, Mab ended the Reds, not Ivy. You don't think it was an accident that Lea was at Harry's, at that moment of time?  Which isn't to say that Ivy shed any tears for them.  But Ivy didn't tell Harry anything that he couldn't have known, given Marcone's known proclivities.

The question about Ivy, is neutral with respect to what?  She is bound to her purpose, which is to win the Oblivion War, on behalf of humanity.  That isn't a neutral purpose.  And she is quite capable of killing humans if her primary purpose is served.  But she is neutral to the future of humanity, she isn't there to pick winners or losers, but to give them the opportunity to choose for themselves.

@Mira
It is an open question to the point, can the Archive control the host? Any creature able to create the Archive would have known the risks of the Archive being used by the host against its purpose.  Has Jim thought it out that far? It's an interesting point.  My guess is no.

[Mira]

Your ignoring the point.

No, I am not, Marcone wasn't asked to referee the duel between Harry and Ortega, nor would both agree that he'd hold a deadly substance that could kill either if they cheated.. 

Are you suggesting the Oracles had no idea what would happen when they provided such information?

No, they don't..  What you are failing to take into account is free will and the many forks in the road between here and there..

Telling him Marcone could help is giving him information. It is helping. It led directly to the destruction of the Red Court. Or is Ivy incapable of predicting that because she is completely unrelated to the Oracles?

Key word, could not would, she doesn't even name Marcone..

here is what she says on page 147 Changes...

" Ivy says she cannot get involved.  That the business you're on is deadly.  She dares not unbalance it for fear of changing the outcome."

This upsets Harry because he knows damn well the business he is on is deadly, he doesn't think she is being very helpful, and pleads with her, reminding her she owes him one.. To wit, Kincaid says further

"Believe me, she remembers, Dresden. But she isn't free to share her knowledge like you or me.  When she says she can't tell you, she's being literal.  She physically cannot let such information leave her head."

Then she tells him she cannot tell him where little Maggie is, but she can tell him someone who might.. But then she doesn't give him Marcone's name, in very cryptic oracle fashion she tells him ,"That the last man he wants to see might have useful information." 

So, in the interest of remaining neutral and not upsetting the balance, which she isn't allowed to do.  In true oracle fashion, she told Harry the business he was going into was deadly.. Hail princess of the obvious... She didn't name names, but told Harry the last man he wanted to see right now might have useful information.. That was for Harry to figure out.

So no, she didn't give him any direct information that would help him or lead to the down fall of the Red Court.   However most likely she could predict it, but she wasn't being asked about that, nor could she volunteer that.   She gave a hint,  yes, helpful perhaps, but from there it was up to Harry.

[Mira]

It is an open question to the point, can the Archive control the host? Any creature able to create the Archive would have known the risks of the Archive being used by the host against its purpose.  Has Jim thought it out that far? It's an interesting point.  My guess is no.

I think Jim is contradicting himself to some degree.  Because in Small Favor that is what Luccio is talking about, the Host controlling the Archive..  However in Changes, Kincaid tells Harry that even if Ivy wanted to tell him the information he wants, the Archive will not let it out of her head. 

[g33k]

I think Jim is contradicting himself to some degree.  Because in Small Favor that is what Luccio is talking about, the Host controlling the Archive..  However in Changes, Kincaid tells Harry that even if Ivy wanted to tell him the information he wants, the Archive will not let it out of her head. 

No reason to think it's 100% one-or-the-other (Ivy in total control of the Archive, or the Archive being totally immune to Ivy).  I suspect a "middle ground," maybe even some variability -- depending on the Host and the issue(s) where they differ -- is much more likely.

[kbrizzle]

I think the whole point with the Archive is that it is supposed to be neutral in concept but since it is applied practically through a mortal lens, it rarely actually is neutral.

Some of the hosts may have been better at neutrality than others, but since Ivy’s ascension to that mantle was unusual she is less neutral than she probably should be.

Perhaps like Anakin Skywalker, her emotional attachments too will lead her to the dark side? 

@morriswalters
From what we’ve seen of how such things work in the DV, the Archive definitely exerts a lot of influence on its host (like the quote @Mira posted about Kincaid telling Harry that there’s certain info that Ivy literally can’t let leave her head).