Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"

[Bad Alias]

Actually the Archive is bound to neutrality, that why it was asked to act/direct the duel between Harry and Ortega.

This is either 100% wrong or pure speculation based on some reasoning you haven't expressed. She was asked to serve to mediate the duel because she's a "neutral party" under the Accords. In Small Favor, Harry "could have chosen any one of a dozen neutral arbiters." Ch. 35. Marcone is a neutral party. Are you suggesting that Marcone is "bound to neutrality," that he was "created neutral?"

As to the claim she is "bound to neutrality," I ask that you read the quote I provided, my argument based on that quote and what we know about the Archive's true purpose, and make an argument that my reasoning is flawed or give some other reasoning that you think is better instead of just saying I'm wrong.

she has to abide by the rules for the Archive.

What are those rules and where did you get them from? Because the rule that we get about the Archive being bound to neutrality is from her cover story that we know for a fact is a lie.

[g33k]

Can we agree that:

• The Archive -- within the context of the Accords -- is at least legally a "neutral party" regarding any other two parties?
• She is "bound" to that "neutrality" to whatever degree her being signatory to the Accords binds her.
• Her original Oblivion-War purpose will bind her more strongly than the Accords, and isn't at all a "neutral" thing:  any entity that seems to threaten Mankind, and has an otherworldly origin such that it CAN be "obliviated," is on the Archive's agenda to do so -- even other Accorded parties.

I do not believe the Fae can be obliviated.  They are too tightly tied to the mundane world, too naturally a part of it.

[Bad Alias]

The Archive -- within the context of the Accords -- is at least legally a "neutral party" regarding any other two parties?

I was going to say yes, but I'm not sure if she is a de facto or de jure neutral party. I'm also not sure if she is a neutral party regarding any other two parties.

She is "bound" to that "neutrality" to whatever degree her being signatory to the Accords binds her.

No because the "bound" language comes from the description of the Archive's essential nature. I believe agreeing to the use of the bound language for two different situations just confuses the issue when people have enough trouble with this concept when not using the same language to describe both ideas.

We don't know if neutral parties are bound to that neutrality or if they just happen to be neutral parties, so we wouldn't really even be agreeing to anything.

This is strictly an objection to form and not substance.

I do not believe the Fae can be obliviated.  They are too tightly tied to the mundane world, too naturally a part of it.

Thomas said that the Venatori tried but failed because of Gutenberg and the Grimm Brothers. The Venatori operate under orders from the Archive. Thus the Archive tried to obliviate the Fae. The Archive acted against multiple Accorded members without provocation.

Whether or not that task is achievable is irrelevant to the issue at hand, though it is interesting, and I'd be happy to leave this discussion behind to take that one up. I just don't have much to offer other than that if the Archive ordered it, then it is exceedingly likely that it is possible. A counter to that argument might be that the Venatori sometimes act on their own initiative.

[toodeep]

What she is bound to in terms of neutrality is vague when dealing with the Accords (is it because of her position in the accords or because of what she is), but is less vague in response to Dresden's call in Changes.  In response to not getting much response Harry complained and Kincaid said, "But she isn't free to share her knowledge like you or me.  When she says she can't tell you, she's being literal.  She physically cannot let such information leave her head."  So clearly Ivy does experience some limits on what she is and isn't allowed to do with her power/knowledge from the Archive, which may be described as being required to stay neutral.

[Mira]

What she is bound to in terms of neutrality is vague when dealing with the Accords (is it because of her position in the accords or because of what she is), but is less vague in response to Dresden's call in Changes.  In response to not getting much response Harry complained and Kincaid said, "But she isn't free to share her knowledge like you or me.  When she says she can't tell you, she's being literal.  She physically cannot let such information leave her head."  So clearly Ivy does experience some limits on what she is and isn't allowed to do with her power/knowledge from the Archive, which may be described as being required to stay neutral.

Exactly,  which may be another reason why the Senior Council and others prefer that the host stay
mentally/emotionally detached from everyone around them. 

[Bad Alias]

In response to not getting much response Harry complained and Kincaid said, "But she isn't free to share her knowledge like you or me.  When she says she can't tell you, she's being literal.  She physically cannot let such information leave her head."  So clearly Ivy does experience some limits on what she is and isn't allowed to do with her power/knowledge from the Archive, which may be described as being required to stay neutral.

Kincaid doesn't know Ivy's true purpose. He wouldn't know that she could. And Ivy did give Harry the information he needed. She also interfered in this micro fiction.

I'm not arguing that the Archive won't act so as to appear bound by neutrality. I'm arguing that the evidence we have of her being bound by neutrality is tied up with the lie of her purpose so that we don't know that she is in fact bound by neutrality. We know that the Archive is not neutral. The Archive pursues a goal. That goal appears to be the obliviation of most if not all supernatural creatures. We know Ivy acted to help Harry twice.

If Ivy is bound by neutrality, we clearly don't have any idea what that means because it hasn't stopped her from doing a whole lot. Saying Ivy is bound by neutrality is a poor objection to someone's theory that Ivy got word to Mab to be prepared to save Harry (or any other theory that doesn't necessitate Ivy acting openly).

[g33k]

... No because the "bound" language comes from the description of the Archive's essential nature. I believe agreeing to the use of the bound language for two different situations just confuses the issue when people have enough trouble with this concept when not using the same language to describe both ideas ...

I think this is a critical component of the disagreement on this point.

Is she "bound" (unable to do some things, forced to do some things) as the Archive, regardless of the Accords?  Kinkaid says so; at least, that she cannot do some things.  It certainly appears so to me.  Is there explicit WoJ?

Then we ask, is she "bound" under the Accords?  I think so, but only legally:  Accord members are able to do whatever they want, it's just an issue of whether they get caught, and whether Mab then goes all psycho-vengeful on them for breaking the Accords...

It's all too easy to conflate the two usages.

[Arjan]

Kincaid doesn't know Ivy's true purpose. He wouldn't know that she could. And Ivy did give Harry the information he needed. She also interfered in this micro fiction.

I'm not arguing that the Archive won't act so as to appear bound by neutrality. I'm arguing that the evidence we have of her being bound by neutrality is tied up with the lie of her purpose so that we don't know that she is in fact bound by neutrality. We know that the Archive is not neutral. The Archive pursues a goal. That goal appears to be the obliviation of most if not all supernatural creatures. We know Ivy acted to help Harry twice.

If Ivy is bound by neutrality, we clearly don't have any idea what that means because it hasn't stopped her from doing a whole lot. Saying Ivy is bound by neutrality is a poor objection to someone's theory that Ivy got word to Mab to be prepared to save Harry (or any other theory that doesn't necessitate Ivy acting openly).

It is much like the Sidhe, Lea did it in Ghost Story. When they want to tell you something but they can't they may resort to oracle like riddles.

[Mira]

I was going to say yes, but I'm not sure if she is a de facto or de jure neutral party. I'm also not sure if she is a neutral party regarding any other two parties.

The Archive is the collective written memory of mankind, that makes it a bit different from Marcone for example who begins with a bias..   In Small Favor, Harry went more to rescue a child than the Archive. 
The Council sees her as a computer base..

This is either 100% wrong or pure speculation based on some reasoning you haven't expressed. She was asked to serve to mediate the duel because she's a "neutral party" under the Accords. In Small Favor, Harry "could have chosen any one of a dozen neutral arbiters." Ch. 35. Marcone is a neutral party. Are you suggesting that Marcone is "bound to neutrality," that he was "created neutral?"

As to the claim she is "bound to neutrality," I ask that you read the quote I provided, my argument based on that quote and what we know about the Archive's true purpose, and make an argument that my reasoning is flawed or give some other reasoning that you think is better instead of just saying I'm wrong.

Yup, you are wrong...  Luccio, Small Favor page 408

The Archive was created to be a neutral force.  A repository of knowledge.  But what if Ivy's unique circumstance allowed her to ignore those limitations?"

The female hosting the Archive is human, with all the emotions that goes with being human, thus with a bias.  However in it's five thousand year history the host has been able to keep her bias out of it, sometimes it has driven her mad to do so.   Ivy is unique because she had no human experience before she became host, up until she met Harry it more or less was working out, but he gave her a name and treated her like a human child, which triggered the biases a human child would have.  Thus  this puts Ivy, the human host with biases in conflict with the Archive, a thing created to be a neutral repository of all human knowledge with no bias.

[morriswalters]

All neutrality means with respect to the Accords is that she isn't involved in the ongoing fight. 

Jim on the other hand is blowing smoke as far as the Archive is concerned until he reveals how and when she was created.  If she is a container of all human knowledge she predates the White Council by at least 5000 years and probably more.  And by more I mean a lot more.  So what can the Council know? 

It only could have been created in a more modern era if it were constructed from a spirit which had the sum total of knowledge of the human race up to the time it was created.

Toodles
_{I have discovered at least one personality who also uses this, the Millennial Farmer}

[Bad Alias]

Yup, you are wrong...  Luccio, Small Favor page 408

No, you're wrong. It doesn't matter what Luccio says unless Luccio knows more about the Oblivion War than the Venatori like Thomas and Lara, and Luccio spreads it around by telling the truth about the Archives true nature instead of being smart enough to know that's an absolutely stupid idea and keep spreading the lie that the Archive is just a hedge against a cataclysmic disaster. Luccio doesn't know about the Oblivion War.

The Archive is the collective written memory of mankind, that makes it a bit different from Marcone.

It doesn't make them any different under the Accords.

[Mira]

   I rather take Luccio's word for it, she goes into a lot of detail as a warning to Harry..

1]  page 407  Small Favor about the importance of the host keeping emotionally remote from the
Archive.

Archive keeps it's host emotionally remote for a reason--because otherwise the passions and prejudices and hatreds and jealousies of thousands of lifetimes have the potential to distill themselves into a single being.

She goes on to say on the next page 408 that the host keeps her emotions separate from that of the Archive,  least all those lifetimes of emotions over run her and she goes out of control.
Then she says

The Archive was created to be a neutral force.  A repository of knowledge.

There is no quibble there, the Archive doesn't take sides any more than a computer does.

What she is bound to in terms of neutrality is vague when dealing with the Accords (is it because of her position in the accords or because of what she is), but is less vague in response to Dresden's call in Changes.  In response to not getting much response Harry complained and Kincaid said, "But she isn't free to share her knowledge like you or me.  When she says she can't tell you, she's being literal.  She physically cannot let such information leave her head."  So clearly Ivy does experience some limits on what she is and isn't allowed to do with her power/knowledge from the Archive, which may be described as being required to stay neutral.

Yes, and her life time or life times of emotional bias cannot enter into the computing the Archive does.. 1] It would drive her mad. 2] It would make her one of the most powerful forces in the world.

[Bad Alias]

It doesn't matter what characters who don't even know about the Oblivion War say about the Archive. Give me a reason why they should be believed when they are wrong about what the Archive even is. Until someone can do that, it does absolutely nothing to advance your argument when you repeat what those characters have said. They don't know. They are basing their reasoning on lies.

[Mira]

It doesn't matter what characters who don't even know about the Oblivion War say about the Archive. Give me a reason why they should be believed when they are wrong about what the Archive even is. Until someone can do that, it does absolutely nothing to advance your argument when you repeat what those characters have said. They don't know. They are basing their reasoning on lies.

 

The Archives official role is a cover story, the Archive was created specifically for the Oblivion War since it's a war that by definition is fought over generations they needed a way to secure knowledge between centuries. The Archive monitors any mention of any Old Once and once they appear to be forgotten she holds on to the name for a few hundred years to be sure and then deletes it from her memory casting that particular god in to oblivion

  Which makes it the most neutral of neutral entities..

Yes, the Archive (and Ivy, the two aren’t really divisible) know about these forgotten beings. The Archive is in essence the keeper of the dead, where they are concerned. Once the archive believes one of them has been consigned to oblivion, she holds on to the memory of that being briefly, for another thousand years or so, watching for any mention of that being in print in an effort to make sure that she is the last person alive who remembers whichever hideous entity has been consigned.

And once the safety period has elapsed, and the Archive is confident that no one else remembers, she deletes the memory from the Archive. Bad guy, gone.

That makes it an umpire so to speak, neutral..

[Bad Alias]

Your first quote is from Anubissama on reddit. I don't know why we should care what this person says. Anyway "casting that ... god into oblivion" doesn't seem like a neutral act to me. Even if all that is "neutral," it doesn't mean the Archive is incapable of acting in a non neutral way.

Your second quote is actually from Jim, but you left off the next couple of paragraphs that show the Archive is the opposite of neutral, what Kincaid says doesn't matter, and that the bound by neutrality is "smoke and mirrors."

She also tries to keep track of the enemy players in the Oblivion War via watching for communications and so on. When she finds a trace of them, somewhere, she lets a cell of operatives (like Lara and Thomas) know what’s up, through a blind drop, and sends them off to handle the problem.

The Oblivion War is a huge, slow thing. Stuff happens every few decades, at most. That’s why the Archive was created–to be an immortal awareness, something that could track and intelligently direct responses to the enemy in a war happening on an almost geological scale.

All that other stuff she says the Archive is for? Smoke and mirrors.

Kincaid, by the way, has no idea that the Oblivion War exists. It isn’t like Ivy explains this stuff. She just gives orders.

(Emphasis added). The Archive is a general in a secret war. How is that neutral? She sends Thomas out to kill people. That's neutral? How?!

Further, your quote has refuted the argument that the Archive is bound to neutrality but Ivy isn't.

the Archive (and Ivy, the two aren’t really divisible)