Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"

[Bad Alias]

Jim doesn't say the coins are frozen in carbonite. He says they are effectively frozen in carbonite. He could just mean that it's cheating for them to act outside of the coin. If they do, then Uriel can respond, so they are effectively, but not actually, limited. It's a bit of a stretch.

Is a fallen angel lying the violation? Could Lashiel have lied to Harry through Ascher's mouth in Hades' vault? Would that be cheating? (In my opinion: probably not, probably, probably not).

(Edit: Sorry about the double post. My internet connection was being screwy).

[Arjan]

Jim doesn't say the coins are frozen in carbonite. He says they are effectively frozen in carbonite. He could just mean that it's cheating for them to act outside of the coin. If they do, then Uriel can respond, so they are effectively, but not actually, limited. It's a bit of a stretch.

Is a fallen angel lying the violation? Could Lashiel have lied to Harry through Ascher's mouth in Hades' vault? Would that be cheating? (In my opinon: probably not, probably, probably not).

I code us Nicodemus lies all the time.

I need to switch of the autocorrect on my new phone.

[g33k]

But Bonnie wasn't, was she?   Note in Skin Game Lasciel referred to her as her child, not Lash's child ...

That Bonnie was there -- but the sigil was gone -- tends to show that Bonnie isn't a viable conduit!

Lasciel had no idea that "Lash" existed.  That thing was "Lasciel's Shadow" as far as the Fallen knew (or cared, other than in a tactical sense); so of course anything of Lash's was -- to the Denarian -- Lasciel's... there was no Lash to them.

... It was unlikely anyone was going to come for it.  Maybe Anduriel knew ...

Anduriel certainly knew.  Nic/Anduriel gave the coin to Harry, watched him take it; Harry and Nic made eye-contact!  If Nic or Anduriel ever concluded that Lasciel's Shadow had somehow failed to sway Harry (or that there was a higher priority for the coin) they knew exactly where to go to get it.

If I were in Harry's shoes, I'd be quaking in them:  the HEAD of the Denarians, the sneakiest and most long-range of them, thinks I've got one of his assets stashed away in my home...  And the building is full of bystanders/hostages.

So long as Harry believed the Fallen still had some connection to him, he wanted the Coin where he could Take Steps.  Stronger containment.  HTHP BARS press.   Sneaking into a Nasa facility and sending the coin on the next Voyager interplanetary probe, etc...

Once he was confident the influence of the Fallen was gone, his own responsibility was over; then he gave the coin to the Church, to protect the bystanders.

... Maybe Anduriel knew, but then he must have also known that the Sword of Faith was in plain sight in Harry's umbrella stand for years, yet no one tried to steal it to destroy it ...

Actually, I'm pretty sure nobody else knew (in particular, Nic or Anduriel).  It's strongly implied that the sword was simply never noticed/spotted by anyone; and Nic isn't likely to have been able to insert many (if any) agents into Harry's place.

Plus, I strongly suspect "stealing a sword from a non-wielding / non-Knight guardian" might just be the sort of "rule-breaking" that lets archangels step in to counterbalance it.  Given the sheer power the 30 Denarians possess, and the effectively-eternal lifespan, they'd have been repeatedly able to attack and steal the Swords, across 2 millenia.  That they haven't suggests there's a good reason not to (at a guess:  Divine Providence insures that such a project Does Not Turn Out Well for them; no matter how careful their plans, it's worse for them to try for a Sword that way, than to wait for a Knight).

[forumghost]

I mean even after Nic knew that Harry had the sword, It's not like Harry left it entirely unguarded. His apartment was Warded, and Nic isn't exactly a Mage.

Plus I rather think he preferred having it collect dust in Harry's umbrella stand then actually having the Sword put back in play, which was the most likely scenario if Heaven got wind of Nic making a play for it. Lord knows Dresden wasn't putting much effort into finding a suitable candidate for it.

[Avernite]

It also meshes nicely back with Skin Game - because Harry had a Sword hanging out in his apartment, the know-it-all spymaster of the Denarians didn't KNOW what was going on in there.

Talk about scary, for a being who usually can know everything!

[Mira]

It also meshes nicely back with Skin Game - because Harry had a Sword hanging out in his apartment, the know-it-all spymaster of the Denarians didn't KNOW what was going on in there.

Talk about scary, for a being who usually can know everything!

Indeed, and if the wards kept him from knowing about the Sword, why would he then know about the coin and why wouldn't it stay protected? 

Lasciel had no idea that "Lash" existed.

I find that hard to believe, I think it more that Lasciel couldn't do anything about Lash. And Lash
until the very end in an effort that she'd thought would save Harry as well as herself tried to talk
Harry into taking up the coin.  Only at the very last minute when Harry said he'd rather die or go
brain dead than take up the coin did she switch and sacrifice herself.

[Arjan]

Anduriel is not continuously listening to Harry, he has other people to watch and other things to do. He has to concentrate on someone to do so. Nic can easily miss something.

[morriswalters]

The sword was in an umbrella stand mostly unknown and not talked about and Anduriel can't listen everywhere all the time, at the same time.  Not to mention that any White God worth his godhood would not make his sword trackable or findable. 

Nic could have brought in troops at any time and burned Michael's house to the ground and killed everybody in it and then taken his sword from his burned dead  bullet ridden fingers.  From Small Favor onward, when it is established that he knows where Michael lives. But by canon the sword is unbreakable except through a failure of the Knight and possession is meaningless outside of that.  This can be inferred by the number of times the Knights have challenged the Denarians and died and the swords haven't been taken.  And if the coins are always dangerous to the Knights then it can be no less true that the swords are always dangerous to the Fallen.

In terms of Bonea and her connection to Lasciel, there will always be the possibility that Bonea will betray Harry through a possible connection to Lasciel.  This will be determined by the arc Jim created her for.  The protections Harry put around the coins in the basement were always meaningless.  Lash tells Harry that she can show him how to summon the coin.  Which implies that she can't.  It has to be him and he could have always dug it up.

[Mira]

The sword was in an umbrella stand mostly unknown and not talked about and Anduriel can't listen everywhere all the time, at the same time.  Not to mention that any White God worth his godhood would not make his sword trackable or findable. 

 I think it might have been because Harry mentions it more than once.  Yet God Harry be custodian of the Sword while the shadow of Lasciel was dancing in his head and temping him constantly.

Nic could have brought in troops at any time and burned Michael's house to the ground and killed everybody in it and then taken his sword from his burned dead  bullet ridden fingers.  From Small Favor onward, when it is established that he knows where Michael lives. But by canon the sword is unbreakable except through a failure of the Knight and possession is meaningless outside of that.  This can be inferred by the number of times the Knights have challenged the Denarians and died and the swords haven't been taken.  And if the coins are always dangerous to the Knights then it can be no less true that the swords are always dangerous to the Fallen.

Um I believe that Michael's house is guarded by an angel squad.  What canon about the Swords?  Is it word of Jim because I cannot remember Michael, Sanya, or Shiro making those claims in the novels.

In terms of Bonea and her connection to Lasciel, there will always be the possibility that Bonea will betray Harry through a possible connection to Lasciel.  This will be determined by the arc Jim created her for.  The protections Harry put around the coins in the basement were always meaningless.  Lash tells Harry that she can show him how to summon the coin.  Which implies that she can't.  It has to be him and he could have always dug it up.

Yes, Harry found out they were meaningless when he tried to protect himself with a circle against Uriel in Changes.  The very fact that he even attempted to do that says he thought the coin was safe in the basement.. However even though he thought Lash was dead, he still heard the whisper then he dug it up and called Father Forthill. 

[Bad Alias]

[1]But by canon the sword is unbreakable except through a failure of the Knight and possession is meaningless outside of that.  This can be inferred by the number of times the Knights have challenged the Denarians and died and the swords haven't been taken.
...
[2]The protections Harry put around the coins in the basement were always meaningless.

[1]Also they may not even be able to touch them. Susan's hand was zapped when she touched it in Death Masks. This implies some level of protection. We know Lea wasn't able to pick it up unless it was misused.

[2]I'm not sure if they were meaningless. They appeared to stop the whispering in his head during Death Masks. That could have been a feint, or it could have severed some sort of Lasciel-->Dresden connection but not a Dresden-->Lasciel connection.

[morriswalters]

Um I believe that Michael's house is guarded by an angel squad.  What canon about the Swords?  Is it word of Jim because I cannot remember Michael, Sanya, or Shiro making those claims in the novels.

Reread Skin Games.  The Angels don't protect against mortal intruders.  Thus Molly putting a contingent of Fae in the hood.  And again the whole point of the charade that puts Murphy out of the picture is Nic seeking to unmake the sword.  And this goes as far back as Grave Peril when Lea tricks Harry into using the sword in a matter for which it wasn't intended.

Lea’s laughter rang out through the graves like silver bells. “Yes!” she caroled, stepping forward. She bent and with a casual motion picked up the great sword. “I knew you would try to cheat me again, sweet boy.” She smiled at me, a flash of dainty canines. “I must thank you, Harry. I would never have been able to touch this had not the one who held it betrayed its purpose.”

However even though he thought Lash was dead, he still heard the whisper then he dug it up and called Father Forthill.

I can hear my Mothers voice and she has been dead for more years than I want to acknowledge.  Harry hears his mothers voice in multiple books.  What he heard was no more than a message recorded in his mind.  A goodbye from Lash.  Jim is a sentimentalist.

[Avernite]

Nic could have brought in troops at any time and burned Michael's house to the ground and killed everybody in it and then taken his sword from his burned dead  bullet ridden fingers.  From Small Favor onward, when it is established that he knows where Michael lives. But by canon the sword is unbreakable except through a failure of the Knight and possession is meaningless outside of that.  This can be inferred by the number of times the Knights have challenged the Denarians and died and the swords haven't been taken.  And if the coins are always dangerous to the Knights then it can be no less true that the swords are always dangerous to the Fallen.

Small Favor is also the book where Michael drops out of the fight, though. Running such an operation against an active Knight might occasionally be an idea, and of course sheer petty vengeance can make Nic try it... but if he was that petty to all former Knights he'd never get anything done - after all if a random house in Chicago suburbia gets blown up, burned, and bullet riddled the authorities WILL be on his tail. Nic can undoubtedly deal with that, but he can't deal with that AND freely pursue his actual goals.

In short, as Nic said in Skin Game - he was okay with leaving Michael as retired-and-out. The Sword was his real target, and Michael no longer wielded it.

[kbrizzle]

A couple of things:

I think Harry gave up the Coin to Forthill for many reasons but here are a couple of the most compelling given Harry’s character imo:

• One of themes in SmF is how Michael’s trust in Harry has been shaken because of Lasciel’s Coin. In order to complete making things right, Harry gives the Coin to the person Michael is most comfortable with having it. I mean Michael wouldn’t be fully convinced if Harry claimed to be rid of the shadow but kept the Coin as further temptation.
• Harry was already carrying the burden of being a Sword guardian in addition to his other responsibilities - I can see Harry not wanting to add to this burden by also having to guard a Coin when the Church provided a reasonable alternative - see what happened in DB with Cassius & Grevane

I also don’t think anyone could use mundane means to attack an active Knight’s family without a divine being getting involved.

I do think it was Lasciel who whispered the words in Harry’s ear - perhaps she didn’t need a conduit & like Lash leaving Harry with the ability to play guitar after her death, perhaps she also left those 7 words in there as well to automatically be whispered in Harry’s ear when he was most despairing like a psychic program of sorts.

[Mira]

I can hear my Mothers voice and she has been dead for more years than I want to acknowledge.  Harry hears his mothers voice in multiple books.  What he heard was no more than a message recorded in his mind.  A goodbye from Lash.  Jim is a sentimentalist.

That is nice, but you are neither a wizard nor have you had the shadow of one of the Fallen dancing
in your head for several years... But then again I don't know you, you could be..   All I am saying
is Harry is a little different than your average Joe..  Now I wouldn't be shocked if my Lab, Harry Barry Blackdog did all these things, especially when he thinks I need to get up at five in the morning..

[Arjan]

I can hear my Mothers voice and she has been dead for more years than I want to acknowledge.  Harry hears his mothers voice in multiple books.  What he heard was no more than a message recorded in his mind.  A goodbye from Lash.  Jim is a sentimentalist.

But you don't live in Harry's world. If something strange happens I assume there is a natural explanation. If something strange happens to Harry we can better assume it is magic.