Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"

[Mira]

My claim is that Id Harry said that. It's about halfway through Ch. 23 of Skin Game. I can change text size, which changes the number of pages.

 He says that part of Lash remained, that was Bonnie.  However at the time Harry didn't know that.

Oh, and the sigil was no longer on his hand.

Yeah, I know that as well, but that still doesn't explain why after he set the guitar to one side he dug up the coin and called Father Forthill to get it.   If he had nothing to fear, why not just leave it were it was at?  Under three feet of concrete,[please don't hold me to the exact depth.. ] and in a magical containment circle to boot.  Or was there just enough doubt that he felt it was safer if he got rid of the coin all together?  Considering what happened in Father Forthill's office in Changes he was right to fear.  Consider this, if Lasciel was no longer able to exert influence over Harry, why was she so effective?  "And it is all your fault!" 

[morriswalters]

No shadow, no need to contain the coin behind magical barriers. Why would he keep it? As to your second question manipulating people isn't all that difficult.  Per canon, this is what the Fallen do.

There is no text that I have yet seen that says Lasciel was the Fallen who whispered in Harry ear. Some one of the Fallen did, but barring a WOJ or text the question is open.

[Mira]

No shadow, no need to contain the coin behind magical barriers. Why would he keep it? As to your second question manipulating people isn't all that difficult.  Per canon, this is what the Fallen do.

There is no text that I have yet seen that says Lasciel was the Fallen who whispered in Harry ear. Some one of the Fallen did, but barring a WOJ or text the question is open.

Lasciel, Skin Game page 368

"Meaning that since a whisper in your ear that should have killed you seems to have
failed, I intend to skip the subtlety, rip your head apart. and collect our child.  She's far too
valuable a resource to die with you."

Ambiguous to be sure, because she doesn't say it was her nor does she say it wasn't her, nor does she name Anduriel or any of the other Fallen as having done it on her behalf..  I think it can be read either way.   Having said that, 

No shadow, no need to contain the coin behind magical barriers. Why would he keep it? As to your second question manipulating people isn't all that difficult.  Per canon, this is what the Fallen do.

All the more reason why when he heard the whisper he feared that Lasciel still had some influence, hence he got rid of the coin..  In a sense, since Lasciel claims that Bonnie is her kid, not belonging to the transformed Lash, Harry may have a very serious future problem on his hands.  I believe Jim has hinted at that.   Could them problem be, Lasciel still has a lot to say about things even if it is through her daughter.

[g33k]

... Lasciel's coin could have been anywhere on Earth and she could still reach out to Harry because she could reach out to anyone on Earth--it's just against the rules ...

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect:

... while in the coins, they ARE effectively frozen in carbonite without a human agent to assist them ...

(From:  ^{https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-angels-demons-fallen-and-knights-of-the-cross/} )

Now, one could argue that they have some degree of "human agent" merely from someone having chosen merely to touch a coin; the Fallen had enough non-Carbonite agency to implant a Shadow, after all!

But not enough that Lasciel could reach out to touch Harry again, apparently, nor BE reached (except to do a full Denarian Host thing):

• Once Harry had gone past the normal "expiration date" (well into the range of "humans don't resist the lures this long" territory), it would have been time for Lash to "phone home" (if she could have).
• Once Harry had gone past the normal "expiration date" (well into the range of "humans don't resist the lures this long" territory), it would have been time for Lasciel to "contact the field agent" (if she could have).
• It's pretty clear that the Shadow had more than one "damn, he's going to die this time" moment; if full-on Lasciel had been available for consult, without calling her fully, I think the Shadow would have done so.
• If Harry could have done so -- contacting without committing -- the Shadow would have explained that he could "phone" the fallen without actually "inviting her over" (it would be a nice intermediate step of temptation -- see, still en-Coin'ed, still safe!).
• Above all:  when "Lash" began to waver in her cause, when she began to become her own individual, when Harry began to sway her... she would (in the early stages of doubt and uncertainty) have contacted Lasciel to regain surety and eliminate the doubts.

So we have plenty of exemplars where it would have happened if it could have happened; and it didn't happen.  And we have explicit WoJ regarding "frozen in carbonite" (i.e. can't happen).

So, no... the Fallen cannot reach out of their coins.

Or at least:  if they do, it's the kind of obvious "breaking rules" that dynamite on a prison wall is, and would get direct & immediate response (e.g. from Uriel, and Lucifer (per WoJ, Lucifer himself wants the Denarians limited to their Coins) &c).  So it'd be a last-ditch, trumps-of-doom sort of thing.  Dare I say, an "apocalyptic" sort of thing.  Not that we should go BATty about this...

[Mira]

So, no... the Fallen cannot reach out of their coins.

Or at least:  if they do, it's the kind of obvious "breaking rules" that dynamite on a prison wall is, and would get direct & immediate response (e.g. from Uriel, and Lucifer (per WoJ, Lucifer himself wants the Denarians limited to their Coins) &c).  So it'd be a last-ditch, trumps-of-doom sort of thing.  Dare I say, an "apocalyptic" sort of thing.  Not that we should go BATty about this...

Exactly, plus if Harry was pregnant with Bonnie of the Lasciel genome, there still might have been enough for a slender thread of connection, even though Lash sacrificed herself.  The visit Harry received in Father Forthill's office was pretty faint.  In fact it took Uriel's enhancement of the increment for Harry to understand that someone, i.e. one of the Fallen has pushed him over the edge, "and it is all your fault."  Now it could be that the Fallen who said this made himself or herself faint for a reason, or it could be if the coin was near and her slight connection to Harry being the still developing Bonnie, that was the best Lasciel could do.

[morriswalters]

 The visible mark of the connection was the sigil, and it's gone. Seems pretty definitive.

[g33k]

...  The visit Harry received in Father Forthill's office was pretty faint.  In fact it took Uriel's enhancement of the increment for Harry to understand that someone, i.e. one of the Fallen has pushed him over the edge, "and it is all your fault."  Now it could be that the Fallen who said this made himself or herself faint for a reason, or it could be if the coin was near and her slight connection to Harry being the still developing Bonnie, that was the best Lasciel could do.

It's a pretty W-A WAG, frankly... particularly when Occam is patiently standing there with an obvious alternative.  We have WoJ that they're "frozen in carbonite."  We have (as @morriswalters points out) Lasciel's Sigil being gone; not faint or obscure, but gone.

Lasciel had a new Host by that point, and was no longer limited to the Coin.  It's as simple as that.

How do we know she had a new host?  She was outside the Coin.

The way the Denarians operate in the world is when they have a Host; Lasciel was operating in the world; Lasciel had a new Host.  quod erat demonstrandum (not to put to blunt a point upon it).

[Mira]

Lasciel had a new Host by that point, and was no longer limited to the Coin.  It's as simple as that.

How do we know she had a new host?  She was outside the Coin.

 Yup, that is the obvious choice, but was Hannah Asher disillusioned so much at that point that she'd allow Lasciel to go after Harry?  I could see it if this happened post C.I. after all her friends had died, but before?  Maybe..

Yes, we know the facts, but fear isn't rational, even for Harry, so I still say that hearing that whisper at the end of White Night spooked him enough to dig up the coin and call Father Forthill.  Even at
that point in time there was a lot he didn't know about Denarians..  Hey until Skin Game he didn't know that his Id and the shadow of Lasciel could have kinky sex in his head and make a spirit baby, I bet even Michael had no clue that that was possible..

[Arjan]

Yup, that is the obvious choice, but was Hannah Asher disillusioned so much at that point that she'd allow Lasciel to go after Harry?  I could see it if this happened post C.I. after all her friends had died, but before?  Maybe..

Hannah was picked up after changes according to her story. It was the dead of the fellowship that made her recruitment easier.

But any temporary host would do. Some denarians go through hosts pretty fast.

[Mira]

Hannah was picked up after changes according to her story. It was the dead of the fellowship that made her recruitment easier.

But any temporary host would do. Some denarians go through hosts pretty fast.

  True, but is that true of Lasciel?   I can see Denarians that go in for violence not last very long, but Lasciel's methods of seduction might take longer, her shadow existed a long time in Harry's head. Then again a pissed off lover could kill off her host in an act of passion quite quickly.

[Arjan]

  True, but is that true of Lasciel?   I can see Denarians that go in for violence not last very long, but Lasciel's methods of seduction might take longer, her shadow existed a long time in Harry's head. Then again a pissed off lover could kill off her host in an act of passion quite quickly.

I got the impression that the shadow usually did not last that long and a host easily won is also easily discarded.

[g33k]

... True, but is that true of Lasciel?   I can see Denarians that go in for violence not last very long, but Lasciel's methods of seduction might take longer, her shadow existed a long time in Harry's head. Then again a pissed off lover could kill off her host in an act of passion quite quickly ...

I could see Lasciel going for a "quickie," even if she usually prefers the long haul.
Get a Host.
Break the Host.
Use the Host for an immediate goal (like whispering in Harry's ear).
Ride the Host to a kamikaze mission.
Wait in the Denarius for a better Host.

[morriswalters]

Exactly how would they have known that Harry was going to break his back trying to get his landlady out of a burning house?  And what support is there for any Fallen to exist as a true shadow in a room, other than Anduriel?

At the end of the day, if Jim wanted it to be Lasciel, it would have been Lasciel.  But it looks like it was foreshadowing the plot device that shapes Skin Game, where Anduriel is finally shown to be able to listen from any shadow.

[g33k]

  He says that part of Lash remained, that was Bonnie.  However at the time Harry didn't know that.

  Say rather, Harry didn't know it consciously.  idHarry "knew" it, in a nonverbal way, and needed articulate-Harry to put it into words for himself.  That's the moment "Harry" realized that the parasite was a spirit-entity born of he & Lash; but at some level, he had "already known."

... If he had nothing to fear, why not just leave it were it was at?  Under three feet of concrete,[please don't hold me to the exact depth.. ] and in a magical containment circle to boot.

If the Denarius itself was insufficient "containment," the concrete and Harry's magic circle would be as butter to the hot Lasciel knife.

But yeah:  Harry no longer feared the coin, as such.  The shadow was "gone" (transformed, as it turns out), and Lasciel had lost her hold, her "conduit."  Not even the spanking-fresh Shadow had been a "conduit," just an imprint, wholly-internal to Harry.

But consider:  Nic had given Harry the coin.  That paints a great big "Denarian Coin HERE" target on Dresden's dingy little hole (if Nic ever gets the report that the sigil is gone from Harry's hand, etc)... and on the home of Mrs. Spunkelcreif & the Willoughbys.

Clearly, the Church is the place it needs to go; so that's what Harry did.

... Considering what happened in Father Forthill's office in Changes he was right to fear.  Consider this, if Lasciel was no longer able to exert influence over Harry, why was she so effective?  "And it is all your fault!"

All things considered, I think Anduriel is the more-likely Fallen to have whispered.

Why was it Lasciel who taunted him in Hades' vault with his suicide attempt?  Because Anduriel had briefed her -- he's the Master of Shadows, a spymaster; he was running a psych-op against Dresden, and Lasciel / Hannah were an asset he employed.
 

[Mira]

It's a pretty W-A WAG, frankly... particularly when Occam is patiently standing there with an obvious alternative.  We have WoJ that they're "frozen in carbonite."  We have (as @morriswalters points out) Lasciel's Sigil being gone; not faint or obscure, but gone.

But Bonnie wasn't, was she?   Note in Skin Game Lasciel referred to her as her child, not Lash's child.  Though I agree that the coin should have been frozen in carbonite, two things, 1] if he didn't fear any connection to the coin at the end of White Night, why not just leave it there?  It was unlikely anyone was going to come for it.  Maybe Anduriel knew, but then he must have also known that the Sword of Faith was in plain sight in Harry's umbrella stand for years, yet no one tried to steal it to destroy it. 2] Is Bonnie a connection between Harry and Lasciel?

But consider:  Nic had given Harry the coin.  That paints a great big "Denarian Coin HERE" target on Dresden's dingy little hole (if Nic ever gets the report that the sigil is gone from Harry's hand, etc)... and on the home of Mrs. Spunkelcreif & the Willoughbys.

Actually Nic knew that as of Small Favor.  Also Michael seems to think just because Harry got rid of the coin, that it wasn't over..
page310
Harry has told Michael there is no more shadow, he'd given the coin to Father Forthill, Michael has doubts..  [Since this conversation happened in Michael's pick up, Andruiel might know as well.]

"How do you know?" I asked.
"Because in two thousand years,no one has rid themselves of the shadow of one of the Fallen--except by accepting the demon into them entirely, taking up the coin, and living to feel remorse and discarding it.  And you claim you never took up the coin."
"That's right,"I said.
"Then either the shadow is still there," Michael said, "still twisting your thoughts.  Still whispering to you.  Or you are lying to me about taking up the coin.  Those are the only options."

Now we believe that Michael was mistaken, and Harry is the exception to that rule.  But then again, if Bonnie is the connection back to the coin, then Lasciel still could have made a showing in the office in Changes.

Later on during the fight on the island,  Nic asks the shadow of Lasciel to disable Harry so he can
help himself to the Sword of Faith.  Harry tells him on page 382

" Lasciel's shadow," I told him, "doesn't live her anymore.  The Fallen have no power over me and neither do you."

So between what he told Michael in the pickup assuming Andruiel was listening, and what Harry told
him, he knew the coin was no longer there.  Yeah, it is possible that Andruiel wasn't listening in on Michael and Harry's conversation.. But then again if what Michael said about the coin and the shadow is true, then neither Nic nor Andruiel would have believed the influence was totally gone.