Kincaid microfiction "Goodbye"

[g33k]

Why wouldn't he transfer it to where it's supposed to go?

...Are you claiming that Father Forthill wants Harry to pick up Lasciel's coin? Because otherwise I don't get this sentence at all.

Yes, and we were told what that was in Skin Game, so it's irrelevant here.

It's fairly solid canon at this point that the Denarians have infiltrated the parts of the Church responsible for tracking the Coins, supporting the Knights, etc.  I think the Church ALWAYS presumes there's one or two moles, but Michael and others have remarked in recent books that too many coins have gotten away from Church control too quickly, and an unusal degree of infiltration is implied.

It has been WAG'ed that Fr. Forthill might be one of the ones who sometimes returns a coin to them.
 
He doesn't even have to be "corrupted" or working for them.  Imagine:  Nic shows up, he has an innocent in his grasp, and he says to Forthill,

You have Ursiel in your church.  I have Lasciel and this sweet girl right here, who hasn't touched any Coin.  Give me Ursiel, and I'll give you the girl, un-touched.  You know the coins are MEANT to be in circulation anyhow, you can't keep Ursiel for long, it isn't POSSIBLE.  What you CAN do, is save this girl, right now.
 You have 90 seconds.

[nadia.skylark]

It's fairly solid canon at this point that the Denarians have infiltrated the parts of the Church responsible for tracking the Coins, supporting the Knights, etc.  I think the Church ALWAYS presumes there's one or two moles, but Michael and others have remarked in recent books that too many coins have gotten away from Church control too quickly, and an unusal degree of infiltration is implied.

It has been WAG'ed that Fr. Forthill might be one of the ones who sometimes returns a coin to them.
 
He doesn't even have to be "corrupted" or working for them.  Imagine:  Nic shows up, he has an innocent in his grasp, and he says to Forthill,

Yes, but if Father Forthill returned Lasciel's coin to Nic when Harry gave it to him just after the end of White Night, then you would expect Nic to know that something had changed for Harry when he spoke to Harry in Small Favor, which he manifestly didn't.

And all this assumes that Harry gave the coin to Father Forthill instead of Michael, which we don't know, and also ignores that Michael would almost certainly "coincidentally" stumble onto something alerting him if it was Father Forthill.

[Mira]

Yes, but if Father Forthill returned Lasciel's coin to Nic when Harry gave it to him just after the end of White Night, then you would expect Nic to know that something had changed for Harry when he spoke to Harry in Small Favor, which he manifestly didn't.

And all this assumes that Harry gave the coin to Father Forthill instead of Michael, which we don't know, and also ignores that Michael would almost certainly "coincidentally" stumble onto something alerting him if it was Father Forthill.

It is doubtful if he did, or let's put it this way, it would be one of the biggest shocks of the series if Father Forthill returned the coin to Nick.  And yes, Harry did give the coin to Father Forthill.

White Night page 398

Then I went to call Father Forthill and tell him to come over so that he could pick up the blackened denarius as soon as I dug it out of my basement.

Why wouldn't he transfer it to where it's supposed to go?

I doubt he could just call for the UPS truck to come by for transfer.  He also most likely knows that there is corruption in the Church, which makes transport of a coin all the more difficult to arrange. 

...Are you claiming that Father Forthill wants Harry to pick up Lasciel's coin? Because otherwise I don't get this sentence at all.

No, he doesn't want Harry to pick up the coin.
Father Forthill didn't plan to have Harry stretched out in his office with a broken back in some future time.  So if he keeps a special safe for such things in his office he would assume the coin is secure from anyone.  However Harry, in the office, injured, desperate, and with the embryo of a spirit child growing in his brain, could have allowed Lasciel in her coin to exert some influence on Harry. 

Yes, and we were told what that was in Skin Game, so it's irrelevant here.

Actually is was White Night page 398
Harry just played the guitar beautifully..

I heard a very, very faint whisper, like an echo of Lash's voice.
Everything I can, dear host.

That is when he called Father Forthill to come and get the coin as soon as he can get it dug up
out of his basement.

[nadia.skylark]

Actually is was White Night page 398
Harry just played the guitar beautifully..

You do remember Skin Game, right? There was the whole thing where Harry was pregnant with his and Lash's kid, and it was said explicitly that that was why he could still play the guitar.

[Mira]

You do remember Skin Game, right? There was the whole thing where Harry was pregnant with his and Lash's kid, and it was said explicitly that that was why he could still play the guitar.

  Oh yes, but do you remember how the stage was set in White Night? Context matters..
   He still heard the voice in White Night, which scared him enough to get rid of the coin..  He began to have severe headaches from that point on, you do remember in Turn Coat when Morgan showed up Harry was having a migraine.   Um since Lash sacrificed herself at the end of White Night that we know now he was pregnant with their child.  These are facts, and facts matter.. The question is how Lasciel if she was trapped in the coin as of Changes, could still influence a wounded Harry in Father Forthill's office.  I explained a theory that I have about how it came about, which I think is quite logical.  Oh yes, Uriel in Ghost Story confirmed that it was Lasciel who managed to push Harry over the edge into being suicidal.  So how could that be?  So had Hannah Asher at that point already taken up the coin ?  If she had, did Nic via Andriel find out that Harry was wounded in Father Forthill's office, let Hannah know and in turn she enabled  Lasciel to do her thing?  That kind of
works..  Or another is the coin was still under lock and key in Father Forthill's office at the time of Changes because for reasons already stated.  Lasciel clearly wants revenge,  Harry is vulnerable for the reasons already stated, it is very possible that not all lines of communication were severed with the coin when Lash sacrificed herself at the end of White Night.  That is what scared him enough to dig it up and hand it over to Father Forthill at the end of White Night.  Harry even boasts to Mab in Changes that he could still call up Lasciel's coin as an alternative to becoming her Knight.  No one is sure if that was just bravado on his part to get a better deal or not, but he did say it.  If it was true, damn right there is enough connection for Lasciel to show up and mess with Harry's already enormous guilt complex.  Context matters, setting the stage matters for what is to come, so hell yeah, what happened back in White Night set the stage for what happened in Changes, and what happened there set the stage for Skin Game.. 

What is your theory? 

[nadia.skylark]

Oh yes, but do you remember how the stage was set in White Night? Context matters..
   He still heard the voice in White Night, which scared him enough to get rid of the coin..  He began to have severe headaches from that point on, you do remember in Turn Coat when Morgan showed up Harry was having a migraine.   Um since Lash sacrificed herself at the end of White Night that we know now he was pregnant with their child.  These are facts, and facts matter.. The question is how Lasciel if she was trapped in the coin as of Changes, could still influence a wounded Harry in Father Forthill's office.  I explained a theory that I have about how it came about, which I think is quite logical.  Oh yes, Uriel in Ghost Story confirmed that it was Lasciel who managed to push Harry over the edge into being suicidal.  So how could that be?  So had Hannah Asher at that point already taken up the coin ?  If she had, did Nic via Andriel find out that Harry was wounded in Father Forthill's office, let Hannah know and in turn she enabled  Lasciel to do her thing?  That kind of
works..  Or another is the coin was still under lock and key in Father Forthill's office at the time of Changes because for reasons already stated.  Lasciel clearly wants revenge,  Harry is vulnerable for the reasons already stated, it is very possible that not all lines of communication were severed with the coin when Lash sacrificed herself at the end of White Night.  That is what scared him enough to dig it up and hand it over to Father Forthill at the end of White Night.  Harry even boasts to Mab in Changes that he could still call up Lasciel's coin as an alternative to becoming her Knight.  No one is sure if that was just bravado on his part to get a better deal or not, but he did say it.  If it was true, damn right there is enough connection for Lasciel to show up and mess with Harry's already enormous guilt complex.  Context matters, setting the stage matters for what is to come, so hell yeah, what happened back in White Night set the stage for what happened in Changes, and what happened there set the stage for Skin Game..

I think the problem here is that you've forgotten how you used evidence in your own argument. Your claim was that Harry being able to play the guitar at the end of White Night was evidence of a remaining connection with Lasciel--and I'm saying that you're wrong, and I know you're wrong because it was said outright in Skin Game that Harry could still play the guitar because he of Bonnie, which means that it isn't evidence that Lasciel could still influence Harry.

What is your theory?

Lasciel's coin could have been anywhere on Earth and she could still reach out to Harry because she could reach out to anyone on Earth--it's just against the rules.

If Lasciel still had a connection to Harry which formed as a result of him touching her coin, and that connection was how she spoke to him, then it wouldn't be against the rules because Harry made the free-willed choice to touch the coin and form the connection. Since we know that what she did was against the rules, we know that she didn't use such a connection.

[Mira]

I think the problem here is that you've forgotten how you used evidence in your own argument. Your claim was that Harry being able to play the guitar at the end of White Night was evidence of a remaining connection with Lasciel--and I'm saying that you're wrong, and I know you're wrong because it was said outright in Skin Game that Harry could still play the guitar because he of Bonnie, which means that it isn't evidence that Lasciel could still influence Harry.

Quote

You know?  Evidence please and what is your theory? 

Lasciel's coin could have been anywhere on Earth and she could still reach out to Harry because she could reach out to anyone on Earth--it's just against the rules.

Really?  Evidence please, what is your theory?

If Lasciel still had a connection to Harry which formed as a result of him touching her coin, and that connection was how she spoke to him, then it wouldn't be against the rules because Harry made the free-willed choice to touch the coin and form the connection. Since we know that what she did was against the rules, we know that she didn't use such a connection.

  Oh?  Um what was against the rules is Lasciel "lied" to directly influence Harry to suicide.. That unbalanced the scales.. That is in Ghost Story.  How do you know she didn't use her former connection to get close? What is your evidence?  And no, a prisoner of a coin cannot just reach out and touch someone or anyone without invitation, that is why the Knights are so careful not to touch, because even accidentally can be seen as an implied invite.  It may be a bit of a subtle point Uriel was trying to make for some, but it wasn't the reaching out and touching that Lasciel did that was against the rules, it was the lying that influenced Harry's free will, that broke the rules... That is why Uriel could step in and do a little influencing on his own, i.e. the seven words..

[nadia.skylark]

You know?  Evidence please and what is your theory? 

Mira, read my post. My evidence is in the part you quoted. If you insist, I'll dig up the quote, but fair warning I'm not sure if I'll be able to do it soon or not if you do want it, because I don't have my copy of Skin Game right now so I'll have to find an online version I can access, and I'm busy.

And my theory is at the bottom. You quoted that, too.

Really?  Evidence please, what is your theory?

Once again, my theory is at the bottom. And here's the WoJ:

What’s the range of influence for the Fallen in the coins? How far can they extend themselves away from their Denarian hosts?
Jim: Oh, their range is very, very limited, to this one little planet.

Oh?  Um what was against the rules is Lasciel "lied" to directly influence Harry to suicide.. That unbalanced the scales.. That is in Ghost Story.

And can you provide any evidence that that is the only thing that was against the rules?

How do you know she didn't use her former connection to get close? What is your evidence?

Once again, read my post. I literally explain this in the bit you're quoting. To restate: the connection between Harry and Lasciel was created by Harry of his own free will. If she could use the connection to talk to Harry, then it wouldn't be against the rules. We also know that lying using that connection is not against the rules, because it is the job of KotC to "reveal the lies of the Fallen" among other things--ie not the job of archangels like Uriel. Therefore, if Lasciel was using this connection between her and Harry, it wouldn't be against the rules, and since, as you pointed out, what she did was against the rules, we know she wasn't using such a connection.

And no, a prisoner of a coin cannot just reach out and touch someone or anyone without invitation, that is why the Knights are so careful not to touch, because even accidentally can be seen as an implied invite.

Do you have any evidence that it's impossible, rather than against the rules?

It may be a bit of a subtle point Uriel was trying to make for some, but it wasn't the reaching out and touching that Lasciel did that was against the rules, it was the lying that influenced Harry's free will, that broke the rules... That is why Uriel could step in and do a little influencing on his own, i.e. the seven words..

Do you have any evidence that the reaching out was not also against the rules?

And again, Mira, please read my post before responding.

[Mira]

Mira, read my post. My evidence is in the part you quoted. If you insist, I'll dig up the quote, but fair warning I'm not sure if I'll be able to do it soon or not if you do want it, because I don't have my copy of Skin Game right now so I'll have to find an online version I can access, and I'm busy.

  Oh I see,  your evidence isn't that good actually..

Once again, read my post. I literally explain this in the bit you're quoting. To restate: the connection between Harry and Lasciel was created by Harry of his own free will. If she could use the connection to talk to Harry, then it wouldn't be against the rules. We also know that lying using that connection is not against the rules, because it is the job of KotC to "reveal the lies of the Fallen" among other things--ie not the job of archangels like Uriel. Therefore, if Lasciel was using this connection between her and Harry, it wouldn't be against the rules, and since, as you pointed out, what she did was against the rules, we know she wasn't using such a connection.

You seem to be missing the whole point as to why Uriel said the seven words he said to restore balance..  He says it all in Ghost Story when he revealed to Harry what actually happened.. You can twist my words all you want..  However you are very mistaken, anything Lasciel said or whispered that pushed Harry one way or the other violates his free will.. That is a violation of the rules.

I also think you are mistaken about what Jim was saying...

uote

    What’s the range of influence for the Fallen in the coins? How far can they extend themselves away from their Denarian hosts?
    Jim: Oh, their range is very, very limited, to this one little planet.

The question was how far they can extend from their Denarian hosts not the coins.. So unless
Lasciel was already held by Hannah Asher, her range was limited.. 

Once again, read my post. I literally explain this in the bit you're quoting. To restate: the connection between Harry and Lasciel was created by Harry of his own free will. If she could use the connection to talk to Harry, then it wouldn't be against the rules

Sorry, once again you are confused..  It doesn't matter how the connection was made.. Heck Harry talks to Uriel all of the time, but you will notice that Uriel is very careful about how he answers Harry least he violate his free will with undue influence..  That is what Lasciel did when she whispered to a very distraught and vulnerable Harry, "and it is all your fault.." 

Do you have any evidence that the reaching out was not also against the rules?

Do you have any that it is?

[morriswalters]

I'm trying to understand this argument.  My understanding of the coins is that the fallen within can only act through their hosts. That absent a rider they can't act in the world at all.  The WOJ quoted earlier seems to support this.  When Lash was burned out of Harry's head that connection to the coin was lost. The connection was destroyed and Lasciel no longer has access.  I took the shadow who whispered to be Anduriel.  Not Lasciel.  In so far as I know he is the only Fallen who could have known that Harry had a broken back.

As long as Lash was onboard she could call Lasciel, but she is gone, leaving Bonea behind.  The guitar piece was just something Lash programmed in, the voice was an echo. Jim beat that gag(the voice) to death with Harry mother.  I'm pretty sure she is not living in Harry's head.

[Arjan]

We do not know exactly when Lasciel’s coin got loose again it might have had a host during changes. Furthermore can’t is a fuzzy thing with angelic beings. Sometimes it just means that it is against the rules and those rules can bend in certain situations or the fallen can just accept the consequences of giving their opposition more freedom to act.

[morriswalters]

We do not know exactly when Lasciel’s coin got loose again it might have had a host during changes. Furthermore can’t is a fuzzy thing with angelic beings. Sometimes it just means that it is against the rules and those rules can bend in certain situations or the fallen can just accept the consequences of giving their opposition more freedom to act.

Yeah she could had been riding some hapless dupe, and? What canon supports a position that the rules of the coins can be outright ignored?  If the Fallen can just wander around it makes a fool of Jim's plot device.  Not that I think that would hold Jim back since I'm uncertain that he thinks much about continuity, but still. 

For being in position to whisper in Harry's ear Anduriel is the logical candidate since that is his thing.  It also explains how the Fallen would have known(per Skin Game). What got talked about around Harry got overheard. They obviously can't read his mind since Gray would have been blown from the git go.  About Bonea and how did Lasciel know.  I make that to be because Bonea was a thing before Lash vacated the premises.

Could Father Forthill sell the team out, sure.  All that has to happen is for Jim to decide its so.

[Arjan]

Yeah she could had been riding some hapless dupe, and? What canon supports a position that the rules of the coins can be outright ignored?  If the Fallen can just wander around it makes a fool of Jim's plot device.  Not that I think that would hold Jim back since I'm uncertain that he thinks much about continuity, but still. 

The fallen, just like their adversaries, keep to the rules because of the consequences of not doing so. But because of what the fallen are they sometimes break the rules when they think they can get away with it. Then the angels can compensate.

That is why Uriel could give soulfire to Harry and his seven words.

Or was allowed to. Just like the fallen Uriel can do a lot of things he normally can’t do.

For being in position to whisper in Harry's ear Anduriel is the logical candidate since that is his thing.  It also explains how the Fallen would have known(per Skin Game). What got talked about around Harry got overheard. They obviously can't read his mind since Gray would have been blown from the git go.  About Bonea and how did Lasciel know.  I make that to be because Bonea was a thing before Lash vacated the premises.

Harry told everything to Karen in her home when Anduriel was listening.

Could Father Forthill sell the team out, sure.  All that has to happen is for Jim to decide its so.

[morriswalters]

In other words you can't cite canon that says the Fallen can act without a rider? The passage in Ghost Story doesn't seem to specify which fallen acted.

And here we have another case of Jim not paying attention to his own plot.  He has Vadderung warn Harry that Anduriel is listening and has Harry run his mouth to Murphy about Bonea.  Not Smart.  But thanks for pointing it out, I had forgotten it.

[Mira]

I'm trying to understand this argument.  My understanding of the coins is that the fallen within can only act through their hosts. That absent a rider they can't act in the world at all.  The WOJ quoted earlier seems to support this.  When Lash was burned out of Harry's head that connection to the coin was lost. The connection was destroyed and Lasciel no longer has access.  I took the shadow who whispered to be Anduriel.  Not Lasciel.  In so far as I know he is the only Fallen who could have known that Harry had a broken back.

As long as Lash was onboard she could call Lasciel, but she is gone, leaving Bonea behind.  The guitar piece was just something Lash programmed in, the voice was an echo. Jim beat that gag(the voice) to death with Harry mother.  I'm pretty sure she is not living in Harry's head.

  That is logical,  I hadn't thought about Andriel doing Nic's bidding, Jim harped on Lasciel's "woman
scorned" thing for so long I think most of us did think it was Lasciel who did the whispering.  However as I argued it is very hard to set that up, unless the bit about how until Harry, it was impossible to scrub a shadow of the Fallen from one's brain once it has entered. Only logical thing I could come up with is there was still a pathway even after Lash sacrificed herself.
As I said Harry even proclaimed to Mab that if he wanted to he could call up the coin and not have to
become her Knight.  Was he lying, mistaken, or was it possible?

In my opinion, the whispers in the office to get him to kill himself worked a lot better than the Hannah Asher/Lasciel showdown in Skin Game for the woman scorned bit.   

I'm trying to understand this argument.  My understanding of the coins is that the fallen within can only act through their hosts. That absent a rider they can't act in the world at all.  The WOJ quoted earlier seems to support this.  .

Exactly.

As long as Lash was onboard she could call Lasciel, but she is gone, leaving Bonea behind.  The guitar piece was just something Lash programmed in, the voice was an echo. Jim beat that gag(the voice) to death with Harry mother.  I'm pretty sure she is not living in Harry's head.

I agree, yet at the end of White Night that echo Harry heard scared him so much, he immediately went to dig up the coin and called Father Forthill to pick it up.   So Harry at least thought there still might be a connection that he didn't want any part of.  Also though it most likely doesn't mean anything, but I cannot remember if Harry has touched a guitar since White Night in any of the stories.   Though I guess one could argue, and this is far fetched I know, but while Lash is gone, Bonnie is her daughter, that might be enough of a connection for Lasciel to use even if she was an embryo at the time.  That sort of fits with Jim's hints that Harry isn't going to have an easy time with his new spirit daughter.  However the general feeling is because Bonnie is an innocent in the ways of the world, but then again if she was born with the knowledge of her parents, how could she be?

In other words you can't cite canon that says the Fallen can act without a rider? The passage in Ghost Story doesn't seem to specify which fallen acted.

I don't think anyone can, as far as I know Anduriel is the only one who has the abilty to listen in and see everyone.  It doesn't specify which of the Fallen made that visit to be sure, but the whole "woman scorned" thing made Lasciel the likely candidate.  However there are problems with trying to make that theory work given the rules set down for the Fallen.  However Anduriel would know all about Harry's difficulty since he can be everywhere, and Nic, his host can instruct him to act.  Nic is human so he isn't going to worry about the angelic rule about not messing with free will in humans. Anduriel is one of the Fallen, he isn't going to worry about it either.