Author Topic: Faeries tithe to Hell  (Read 17182 times)

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24359
    • View Profile
Re: Faeries tithe to Hell
« Reply #60 on: March 03, 2020, 07:14:59 PM »
Quote
    *
    Posts: 1002
        View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Re: Faeries tithe to Hell
« Reply #57 on: Today at 05:33:56 PM »

    Quote

Ivy isn't fully human and it's why the Council fears her.  She also a Signatory of the Accords and according to canon,

I believe you are mixing up the Archive with the Host...  Ivy is the Host, she is a vanilla human, the Archive, something else or Bob on steroids, is the Signatory, not human..   The Council fears Ivy because she is a human child with the emotions of a human child, who happens to be hosting the Archive,  the serious danger since she was never prepared for it of going mad.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: Faeries tithe to Hell
« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2020, 07:54:00 PM »
"And no one who is just a vanilla human being has tried it." (Emphasis added). The term vanilla human refers to someone like Murphy as distinguished from a human like Billy, Harry, or even Agent Slim (I forget his real name). I wouldn't take it to mean not human.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Faeries tithe to Hell
« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2020, 09:46:09 PM »
@Bad Alias
It really doesn't matter if Ivy is human or not. You could just as easily make the argument that she made herself vulnerable by becoming a Signatory. However, she was appointed a neutral Emissary under Mab's accords, and then attacked by Mab.  I've come to the conclusion that Jim just makes shit up and then tries to explain it away later, or hopes we forget the inconsistencies.

Offline didymos

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile
Re: Faeries tithe to Hell
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2020, 12:47:39 AM »
Also, don't forget that the fetches killed some people at Splattercon!!! in Proven Guilty.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Faeries tithe to Hell
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2020, 01:32:39 AM »
With the exception of the first attack, the rest were ordered by Maeve.  Who was nemfected.   However Mab had Pell's ass kicked. So yeah.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: Faeries tithe to Hell
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2020, 01:40:53 AM »
@Bad Alias
It really doesn't matter if Ivy is human or not. You could just as easily make the argument that she made herself vulnerable by becoming a Signatory. However, she was appointed a neutral Emissary under Mab's accords, and then attacked by Mab.  I've come to the conclusion that Jim just makes shit up and then tries to explain it away later, or hopes we forget the inconsistencies.
I think it's more that he forgets this rule or that thing he wrote/said. I imagine continuity is pretty hard because just about everything longer than 90 minutes (or that would be longer if made into a movie/tv series) is basically guaranteed to have some continuity problems.

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2376
    • View Profile
Re: Faeries tithe to Hell
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2020, 01:55:36 AM »
I think Jim relies on a suite of OCD readers (sometimes informally known as "beta  readers") to help him with continuity & consistency issues.

Offline didymos

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile
Re: Faeries tithe to Hell
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2020, 02:03:25 AM »
With the exception of the first attack, the rest were ordered by Maeve.  Who was nemfected.   However Mab had Pell's ass kicked. So yeah.

According to this WOJ, it was all Mab:

Quote
But to correct some minor stuff:  the fetches aren't even /close/ to her strongest servitors.  They're her couriers, harassers, spies and occasional assassins.  Captain Kudzu was a being that was deemed more-or-less sufficient on the badassometer, but nothing to write home about.  The fetches main use, to Mab, isn't as battlefield thugs.  She's got /plenty/ of other things for that.  Another mild correction:  who says Mab /lost/ the battle at Arctis Tor, before Harry and Company arrived?  At the end of the day, the Winter Queen was still in her fortress--but you didn't see anyone standing around assaulting the place, did ya. :)  Also, it has probably occurred to more than one of you that if Mab was /really/ in trouble, she could have had the entire military might of Faerie back at the fortress in moments--exactly the way they *did* come back when Harry smacked the Winter Well with the fires of Summer.

(Which goes to show that while Mab may be canny to an inhuman degree, she isn't infallible.  Just way closer to infallible than us.)

See above regarding "the question is *why*?"

Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in...

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Faeries tithe to Hell
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2020, 02:45:35 AM »
I think Jim relies on a suite of OCD readers (sometimes informally known as "beta  readers") to help him with continuity & consistency issues.
If you use free labor then you get what you pay for.  That isn't to disrespect them, but it's hard to keep the overall view when you don't have access to the plot. Or when the data is spread over 9 books. Take this.  About two lines and is pretty important.
Quote
“Maybe. In general, young people, especially adolescents, feel emotions much more intensely. The whole hormone thing. It can make them easier targets. Richer sources of energy.”
Then why did it hit an old geezer like Pell first?
@didymos
Well you might think so. 
(click to show/hide)

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24359
    • View Profile
Re: Faeries tithe to Hell
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2020, 04:37:59 AM »
@Bad Alias
It really doesn't matter if Ivy is human or not. You could just as easily make the argument that she made herself vulnerable by becoming a Signatory. However, she was appointed a neutral Emissary under Mab's accords, and then attacked by Mab.  I've come to the conclusion that Jim just makes shit up and then tries to explain it away later, or hopes we forget the inconsistencies.

Ivy isn't, she is merely the Host, it is The Archive that is the Signatory.  The fact that she is a human child makes her vulnerable, example being her very human child reaction to Mister, when only moments before when arranging the duel between Harry and Ortega she was all Archive.. But minutes before that Harry had given her a name, Ivy.   What makes her vulnerable if I understand what Luccio told Harry, it The Archive keeps itself and thus her at arm's length to all human emotion because it is the only way the Host can remain sane with all the knowledge with in her.  Normally the Host is older when it is passed on to her, with the perspective to handle it, but that didn't happen to Ivy's mother because her mother was killed when she was just a teenager, and poor Ivy got stuck with it as a baby.. So no perspective.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Faeries tithe to Hell
« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2020, 11:33:46 AM »
Oxygen and hydrogen are two separate and distinct elements.  Under the right conditions they combine and form water. Water while containing both the original components is something altogether different when in that form.  This describes Ivy.

I could have used another example which is perhaps closer to the danger Ivy poses and that is binary explosives.  Safe separately, but hazardous when mixed for use.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24359
    • View Profile
Re: Faeries tithe to Hell
« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2020, 12:19:14 PM »
Oxygen and hydrogen are two separate and distinct elements.  Under the right conditions they combine and form water. Water while containing both the original components is something altogether different when in that form.  This describes Ivy.

I could have used another example which is perhaps closer to the danger Ivy poses and that is binary explosives.  Safe separately, but hazardous when mixed for use.

 Or maybe a loaded gun with a safety.   Host lives the better part of a "normal" human life and prepares for the Archive to be passed on to her, safety on, no problem though it is a high powered rifle loaded with a huge clip..  Emotional resentful teenager, the Archive is passed on to her with little or no prep, safety off, madness and suicide.  The Archive passed on to her baby?  The Council has desperately tried to keep the safety on in the case of Ivy, however both Harry and Kincaid have messed with the safety.   So school is still out...

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2376
    • View Profile
Re: Faeries tithe to Hell
« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2020, 05:10:58 PM »
If you use free labor then you get what you pay for.  That isn't to disrespect them, but it's hard to keep the overall view when you don't have access to the plot. Or when the data is spread over 9 books ...

I think the cumulative passion (and OCD'ness) of the beta-reader fans has exceeded even the author's capacity to keep track of all the details.

I'm quite certain that the "timeline" is a fan-assembled effort, that Jim himself uses as a resource to keep things straight:
  https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline
I believe Jim uses other reader/fan - generated resources, too.

In addition to the main plotline of the series, Jim has in his head various false-start  and never-pursued notions... such as Fool Moon originally being planned as a classic "figure out who the werewolf is" story, but morphing into "which of these MANY werewolves is the guilty one?"


Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: Faeries tithe to Hell
« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2020, 07:39:50 PM »
I don't expect anyone to be able to keep track of everything that happened in such a large work. I expect errors. I'm still annoyed by them, but I accept them as an unavoidable part of reality and hope none are too jarring. While I find certain errors unacceptable in any professional work, I haven't any errors of that magnitude in the Dresden Files. Some of the errors are more funny than annoying. (Thinking of Harry describing Malcolm as a "stage musician" in one of the first books).

Additionally, my head cannon is that the Dresden Files are Harry's journals. I don't think Jim has confirmed this, but he has hinted at it. (Unless I missed him confirming it). If these are written by Harry, a certain amount of errors can be handwaived as Harry's.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Faeries tithe to Hell
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2020, 12:30:48 AM »
@Bad Alias
It's the central conceit of the series, that each book is a case file of Harry's detective work.