Faeries tithe to Hell

[Mira]

Uriel probably has a guest room at Arctis Tor.  You rarely see Mab without tripping over Uriel.  He starts the plot rolling in PG by moving  Michael.

Wouldn't be shocked if that were so,  let's not forget that he put a thumb on the scale by gifting Harry with Soul Fire in Small Favor..  I think it started way before that in Death Masks, it became clear that Harry is an asset that Heaven and Hell are fighting over,  from Shiro willingly sacrificing himself to save Harry when Nic had him in his clutches to Nic tossing a selected coin in Harry's direction timing it so he'd be sure to pick it up without thinking to save little Harry.

[g33k]

Right, Hades is the god,  parts of his kingdom is hell by our standards, those that need punishment suffer it eternally.

The Greek underworld -- Hades' realm (sometimes the realm itself is also called "Hades") is unrelated to the Christian "Hell."

Lucifer/Satan, and the Denarians, are no part of that realm, nor it of them.
 

[Mira]

The Greek underworld -- Hades' realm (sometimes the realm itself is also called "Hades") is unrelated to the Christian "Hell."

Lucifer/Satan, and the Denarians, are no part of that realm, nor it of them.

True, it is unrelated but as I said while there are areas of Underworld or Hades that are very similar to what Christians would call heaven, there are also places where there is severe punishment as bad as any in the Christian Hell, for example  Tantalas forced to draw water with a sieve never able to slake his thirst..  Another is getting his liver eaten by a bird of prey each day, then it grows back and it happens all over again, another is forced to roll a huge boulder up a hill only to have it roll back down again.   In other words if Nic thought Deirdre would get off easier in the care of Hades than if she faced Judgement or if he convinced her that she would, both were very mistaken...

[g33k]

I mean one of the most confusing Fae plots there is in the books- which is saying something- is Mab and Titania opposing each other while the Denarians are running around in Small Favour...

It's not just the Summer/Winter sub-plot that's puzzling.

The Denarian plot is aimed at the Archive.  They take Marcone so Gard will get Dresden to invoke the Accords and call for an arbiter who will inevitably be the Archive.

I'm puzzled as to why Mab involved herself:  if she hadn't sent Harry after Marcone, that whole "get to the Archive" sequence fails, but it's pretty clear that the snatch against Marcone -- if it succeeded in itself -- would be "legal" under the Accords, so... why does Mab even care, since it is legal??!?  It only becomes an issue because Mab makes Harry her Emissary to recover Marcone, which is what leads to Gard getting Harry to invoke the Accords.

It appears that Mab and Vadderung are playing a game against the Denarians here; possibly this is where they loop-in Marcone, for the sting operation in Skin Game?

But this begs the question, how did Mab and/or Vadderung get sufficient intel (against the secretly-held plans of Denarians! those Fallen should know what it takes to keep their plans secret!) to figure out that Ivy was the target?  It's that Denarian target of Ivy, that gives Mab the opportunity to get things rolling.

===

Then there's the Summer/Winter thing ...

It could be no more than Mab doing her part in the anti-Nic plotting... then Summer acting (in an almost-automatic, reflexive manner) to thwart/oppose Winter... then Winter taking steps to counter Summer... move and counter-move; and the whole thing turning Harry into a Big Bad Wolf for the Gruffs to hand his ass back to him, and so on.

Or maybe it was something else.  Honestly, I suspect (strongly suspect!) so.  But I'm not sure what else, beyond the Mab+Odin anti-Nic plot above.  I think I see Mab's angle.  I don't see Titania's.
 
===

... The Book also has direct Archangel power confirmation that Lucifer himself was acting in alliance with the Denarians ...

Lucifer and the Denarians are all Fallen Angels.  WoJ says Lucifer doesn't like or trust those particular Fallen, and (at least part of) the reason they're in the Coins is to keep them away from Lucifer and unable to plot effectively against him.  But at the end of the day, they're all Fallen Angels; that's their "side."

... So there is atleast one significant occaision Mab and Lucifer. Fae and Hell. Working together.

No...

Lucifer "helped" (that is to say, a massive Hellfire-fueled pentacle was used, from which Harry decides Lucifer must have been involved; but I suspect a Fallen-Angel / Wizard (such as Namshiel; or even a 5some of them) could have summoned and used that much Hellfire without aid from The Big L; so "maybe") to snatch Marcone, and capture the Archive.

But Mab acted in opposition, to undo those things.  Not a Mab/Hell team-up at all!

Unless you're suggesting the whole operation was a shadow-show, staged for the benefit of (impact upon) Dresden, Marcone, & co...?

[g33k]

True, it is unrelated but as I said ...

<heh>

I think you and I are essentially in agreement, and simply talking past the specific details of one anothers' specific points.

[Mira]

<heh>

I think you and I are essentially in agreement, and simply talking past the specific details of one anothers' specific points.

Agreed..

[morriswalters]

Small Favor begins in Dead Beat when Marcone has Gard rescue Harry.  Gard warned Marcone that there would be consequences.

I shook my head. "I called you less than an hour ago. If it wasn't a setup then how did you find me?"
"He didn't," said Gard. "I did." She looked over her shoulder at Marcone and frowned. "This is a mistake. It was his fate to die in that alley."
"What is the point of having free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny?" Marcone asked.
"There will be consequences," she insisted.

  Small Favor is consequences. The point is to kill Harry and Marcone.  Titania hates Harry and Marcone saved him.  Since Slate is on ice Titania knows that Harry will be appointed emissary because, well, that's what Mab does. And he's fair game once Mab names him.  Thus the attack in the yard at Michael's.  Pick your poison on how Mab knew about the Archive.  Maybe the method used to snatch Marcone, certainly a lot of work just to pick off a mortal.  Combined with Gard forcing the appointment of the Archive.  And Mab can see possible futures, as can the Mother's and Rashid.

To understand Summer and Winter consider two springs compressed together.  As long as the forces are balanced the springs are safe.  Let them go out of balance and bad things happen. And if you agree with this Mab's behavior in PG makes more sense.

[Bad Alias]

Small Favor begins in Dead Beat when Marcone has Gard rescue Harry.  Gard warned Marcone that there would be consequences.  Small Favor is consequences. The point is to kill Harry and Marcone.  Titania hates Harry and Marcone saved him.  Since Slate is on ice Titania knows that Harry will be appointed emissary because, well, that's what Mab does. And he's fair game once Mab names him.  Thus the attack in the yard at Michael's.  Pick your poison on how Mab knew about the Archive.  Maybe the method used to snatch Marcone, certainly a lot of work just to pick off a mortal.  Combined with Gard forcing the appointment of the Archive.  And Mab can see possible futures, as can the Mother's and Rashid.

To understand Summer and Winter consider two springs compressed together.  As long as the forces are balanced the springs are safe.  Let them go out of balance and bad things happen. And if you agree with this Mab's behavior in PG makes more sense.

That makes sense. What's with all the spring analogies? 

[morriswalters]

I'm the son of a spring guy, no kidding.  Leaf springs though. I played under semi's when I was young.

[Bad Alias]

I'm much more amused by that than I probably should be.

[morriswalters]

It was a different world.  Today everybody would have kittens that a child was in that environment.  On the other hand  when I think about the scene in Skin Games where Hannah Ascher walks through the fire to flip the switch I picture the annealing furnace where they heated the spring steel. 

[Bad Alias]

It was more the "I'm the son of a spring guy" part. Partly because it made me think of Bill Murray's line from Groundhog Day "yes, but my father was a piano mover, so." Also, and I don't know why, but I think the phrase "spring guy" is hilarious.

When I was a kid, we went on a tour of the chemical plant my dad worked at. Those places are dangerous, and it's not like they shut it down for the tour. I remember going out to one of the plants he worked at just because he had to pick something up or do something real quick. While I'm pretty sure that's not allowed anymore, I think it has more to do with terrorism than the safety of children.

My brother works at factory. They have tours every year where the workers' families, including little kids, are protected from the machinery and metal shavings by yellow tape. At least they don't have the tour while the factory is working.

[morriswalters]

Sometimes my mouth moves on it's own.  The helical spring thing was the product of another discussion elsewhere about moving through n dimensional space. 

[Con]

Right my mistake about Mab and Lucifer. Nonetheless Lucifer was proactively involved in the whole thing while Mab and Titania were balancing the scales.

[kbrizzle]

Mab is involved in SmF because she knows a Denarian (allied with the Black Council) attacked Arctis Tor some time prior to PG. To figure out if all the Denarians are on the Black Council or only one faction, I think that Mab set up the entire events for SmF.

Mab’s play
We see how sneaky Mab was by luring Nic into Hades’ realm in SG, so my guess is that she set up the plot of SmF as a way to bring Nic & Tessa together again after centuries - this way Mab can tell if the Denarians as a whole are actively allied with the Black Council or just a smaller faction. I think Mab’s plan was to involve the one person she knows for sure isn’t on the BC/ Nfected - Harry - who is to be used as a blunt instrument to cause as much damage to the Denarians as possible.

Additionally the rest of the supernatural world is trying to figure out the new balance of power since the Ramps have been faring well enough in their war against the WC, & some of the players know that Arctis Tor was openly attacked which seems to have driven Mab mad. As a result, even the likes of Lara Raith were testing her resolve (she was imprisoning little folk in WN as a small, oblique insult to Mab as pointed out by Harry).

We also know that Mab wasn’t insane - I think this was Mab using the ruse of her insanity to probe who all had attacked her stronghold. Additionally I suspect this was done in tandem with Uriel to raise Harry’s power level - the Denarians attacked Marcone’s panic room with help from Hell before Mab recruits Harry. With Hell being directly involved, Uriel is able to give Harry the ability to wield Soulfire (I suspect this is a crucial point in his becoming a Starborn instead of just someone with the potential - note that beings only start calling him that a book or 2 after this).

Titania is involved because she sees Mab making a play but both her Lady & Knight are not ready/ drinking Maeve’s Kool-aid.

Denarians
I think Nic & Tessa went along because there were both short & long term gains to be had, with smaller incremental gains along the way. Here’s how I see their plan going down:

• Kidnapping Marcone was an oblique test of the Accords to see if the rest of the supernatural world is still willing to uphold them (Harry has to lie to Luccio to get the WC involved).
• Next is to tempt Marcone into taking up a Coin (I suspect Marcone might have a Shadow in his head). This is a solid gain since Marcone is a new & well-connected potential player in the supernatural game & having another Signatory under their influence would be useful to the Denarians.
• Have Mab’s emissary call on a powerful but independent Signatory to mediate - then kidnap & tempt the mediator into taking up a Coin - I’m willing to bet this particular Coin would be Nfected by Namshiel & co. Mab picks Harry, which points Nic to the Archive (Mab offers to pick another emissary if Harry becomes WK, not sure if Ivy would still have been involved if that were the case)
• If this works according to plan, the Denarians would have proved the Unseelie Accords are useless & subvert 2 small but powerful Signatories to their side - this would greatly help Nic kickstart his Armageddon lotto