Faeries tithe to Hell

[Yuillegan]

In Tam Lin there is a bit which Tam Lin tells his lover that every seven years Faerie must pay a teind (tithe) to Hell, and he fears it might be him.

We know Tam Lin was real in the Dresden Files. So I think it is reasonable to assume that the Tithe is as well. The Tithe is due on Halloween night.

So we have several unanswered questions then.

1. What is the Tithe?
They must give a Faerie, possibly a Changeling. All the more likely considering Tam Lin sires Changelings. But I wonder what Jim's spin on it will be. Curiously the original word (tiend) is an old scots word meaning tithe "a tenth part". So perhaps she has to give 10 per cent of her forces to Hell? 

2. Why do the Faeries pay a Tithe to Hell?
Is there some old agreement, or some debt that Faerie is in? Perhaps it is due to the changeover at the Outer Gates. Almost certainly, in fact.

3. What has Halloween to do with it?
No idea. But I bet it is significant, and likely to do with the reason Immortals are mortal on Earth that day.

4. Does Summer also pay the Tithe?
I don't think so, myself. Mostly because I think it is to do with the Outer Gates.

5. This story is the only piece of information on how to rid oneself of being in debt to the Fae, and being the Winter Knight.
Dresden should probably find out more about Tam Lin. As he does manage to escape his service. I suspect the "well" Tam Lin is thrown into is none other than the Winter Wellspring, returning his power back to Winter. I suspect Harry will have to dive into that Well in order to free himself.

[Con]

Could be part of Winters purpose is to guard the borders of Hell as well as the Outer Gates.

In some mythologies The Wild Hunt is referred to as the Hounds of Hell. The purpose of the Wild Hunt was to hunt escaped demons and souls from hell. Some of the leaders of the Wild Hunt are said to be notorious figures sent to hell. There was atleast One dodgy Scottish lawyer. Might be some sort of exchange is necessary. At the very least etiquette on whose jurisdiction it is.

Halloween as we know is a confluence, when the barrier is thinner. Traditionally people are more easy to contact spirits and souls from the other side. This would probably include those from Hell, if the amount of serial killer ghosts in pop culture are true.

[Arjan]

Just a Christian slur obviously not true. According to Christian writers everything magical that is not from heaven comes directly from below. It is the reason why you have to burn your Harry Potter/Dresden books.

This is not just a modern fundamentalist aberration, it has deep roots in early Christianity so when Christian writers wrote the old stuff down they added some things. Message has always been more important than factual truth for them anyway and if they were magical they had to serve the devil in some way.

After that later writers sanitised the stuff for children. We do not have the original tales.

According to that kind of thinking the white council is a satanic cult and we should start the witch hunts now. Maybe the witch hunts were organised by the white court using the church.

[Yuillegan]

I don't know Arjan, Con might be on to something.

In the Dresden Files, the hounds in the Wild Hunt are called Hell Hounds. Leah's favorite pets as well.

Consider also that Kincaid is often called the Hound of Hell or Hellhound. It would not surprise me to learn that he has some connection to the Wild Hunt, and by extension, the Faerie/Hell connection. Something to do with missing his heart. He is a scion too.

And as for the Inquisition, I highly suspect that there was supernatural involvement. Indeed, Heinrich Kramer (whom the character Heinrich Kemmler is based upon) was a notorious witch hunter and priest who pushed for the deaths of many people accused of witch craft.

I'd highly suspect the White Court, they did top the Black Court in a similar fashion. Very much there MO. But just as likely were other supernatural nasties who have wished to bring down the White Council. They do have many enemies, after all.

Con - As I said above, I think you're onto something. Not sure about the Scottish lawyer (other than he may have led the Hunt for a night, just like Dresden). But I do think there is a connection. Which means that Odin and the Erlking also likely have a connection...which is both sad and spooky.

My guess is that Jim tends to base the underlying power of any supernatural being or beings on their image in the minds of humanity, collectively. This is extremely similar to the Warhammer universe in which emotions and thoughts and beliefs bring Gods to life and shape the spirit world. Considering Jim was a big fan of Warhammer (and quite probably still is, at least of the earlier material) I would say odds are that it works the same way. Which probably means, Arjan, that if people did begin to believe that Faeries had demonic connections...then they probably do. In fact we sort of have confirmation of this concept. TWG is how we see the Creator of the Dresdenverse, because that appears to be the dominant belief. But we might have seen the Creator differently, in Ancient Greece for instance. Harry implies that the sheer number of Star Wars fans may have contributed to Uriel liking Star Wars. And the entire premise of the Oblivion War works on the fact that the collective memory of Mankind is strong enough to anchor (or banish, should they forget) beings from the spirit realm (up to and including the Creator and the Devil).

I bring that up because I suspect the Wild Hunt represents the hunting spirit within mankind. They may also have a purpose of hunting down wicked souls, but I think the main purpose is simply to hunt. Anything and everything that stands in their way. Join, hide or die is the motto I believe. But I wonder if Mab took some power from Hell in order to maintain her position, and this is the cost.

[Avernite]

To me, the Tam Lin angle might also be a warping of Winter's purpose.

Winter pays a tithe in blood to hold the Outer Gates against hellish beings who would destroy reality. Not much of a stretch from there to 'Winter pays a tithe in blood against hell', and one step further to 'Winter pays a tithe in blood to hell' (because 'obviously' Faeries can't be the ones holding Satan at bay, that must be TWG/Angels).

[Mira]

To me, the Tam Lin angle might also be a warping of Winter's purpose.

Winter pays a tithe in blood to hold the Outer Gates against hellish beings who would destroy reality. Not much of a stretch from there to 'Winter pays a tithe in blood against hell', and one step further to 'Winter pays a tithe in blood to hell' (because 'obviously' Faeries can't be the ones holding Satan at bay, that must be TWG/Angels).

Must it?  If Hell chooses to attempt to corrupt in an attempt to gain allies against Heaven, why can't the faeries fight too?  Mab has said as much back in Small Favor her interests and Uriel's interests do coincide.

[toodeep]

I like the idea that the "Tithe to Hell" could really just be a reference to sending forces to the Outer Gates which would seem pretty hellish and from which the probability of return would be.... low.

On the flip side, if all the implications that Nicodemus (and thus maybe Hell) are trying to save the world by preparing to fight outsiders in a different manner than TWG approves of, then Hell might be a potential ally of the Winter Court in the fight against the Outsiders - just as TWG is as well. So Mab may be the only force that can truly cooperate with both heaven and hell right now - though her support of Dresden with the cooperation of Uriel while poking Nicodemus in the eye as he tries to accomplish his ends might strain any relationship Mab has with Hell.  Still, I could easily see Mab sacrificing forces to hell when the outer gates are quiet to earn a debt that she could then call upon for support at the outer gates when things get too much for just Winter to handle.  Essentially, paying a tithe get their support as mercenaries in a pinch.

[Yuillegan]

Avernite - That's a fair point. Perhaps over time the original meaning was lost and changed from "paying in lives/blood" to "paying Hell in blood or lives". Hard to say either way though. I agree that it is highly unlikely Mab is holding the Devil and his forces at bay.

This is for several reasons. Angels are multiverse spanning (as in there is just the one individual existing across the multiverse, not multiple versions of the same being). This is confirmed via WOJ. Secondly, the fight at the Outer Gates is a war between ants compared to the sheer destruction of Angel fights, according to Jim. When Angels throw down planets are destroyed. Uriel himself can obliterate galaxies just by thinking about it (and doesn't do battle in the contested violence sense). He has even ended Universes. Mab and her legions simply can't compete against that kind of destruction. She would be no more of a threat to Hell (in that sense) than Ants are to us.

However, as Mira points out, Heaven and Mab do have coinciding interests. Although I do wonder if Hell occasionally also has coinciding interests with Mab as well. Notice how respectful and neutral she is to Anduriel in Cold Days compared to how she sees Nicodemus.

I would say that if Mab fights Hell, she wouldn't fight with swords and spears and magic, generally speaking. She quite probably is aware that it's the small victories that make the biggest difference. Heaven and Hell are having a war for the souls of mankind, for their Free Will, throughout all the many universes within the Dresden Files Creation. This is fought on such an epic and massive scale that the only way to fight it is one choice at a time. Which means if she were fighting Hell, she would know that each time she deprives them of winning even a small victory, it would add up.

But to be honest, I suspect she keeps out of that whole thing. She is much more neutral and probably is really only interested in any given thing if it helps or hinders her purpose.

Cat Sith and Dresden were allies. Cat Sith isn't evil per se, but hyperviolent and easily bored with a long memory. They are not friends. That is probably Mab's relationship with Angels, generally speaking (although with her almost certainly as the weaker party - I know someone will probably bring up that old quote about Mab having power to rival the Archangels but that has almost certainly been retconned and has never been brought up again. I mean really, when has Mab had the power to obliterate galaxies or end universes via mass magical destruction? Maybe if she abandoned the Outer Gates she could end the world...but that's just one world)

Toodeep - I think the most likely possibility is the sacrifice to Hell for aid, or probably more likely for past aid. Jim has talked about the fact when Mab first took over she had to go into massive debt and ask a lot of favors in order to hold her position and is still paying that off. Hence Skin Game in fact.

[Mira]

However, as Mira points out, Heaven and Mab do have coinciding interests. Although I do wonder if Hell occasionally also has coinciding interests with Mab as well. Notice how respectful and neutral she is to Anduriel in Cold Days compared to how she sees Nicodemus.

Mab is anything but stupid,  however it was Skin Game not Cold Days.  Mab was playing chess, she knows what Anduriel can do, so was playing things very close to the vest.   Let's not forget that after this visit she and Harry went to Vadderung to set up the double cross.  So yeah,  Mab can respect the powers of a fallen angel, that is just smart, it doesn't mean she works with or has ever worked with the forces of Hell.

[Con]

Mab is anything but stupid,  however it was Skin Game not Cold Days.  Mab was playing chess, she knows what Anduriel can do, so was playing things very close to the vest.   Let's not forget that after this visit she and Harry went to Vadderung to set up the double cross.  So yeah,  Mab can respect the powers of a fallen angel, that is just smart, it doesn't mean she works with or has ever worked with the forces of Hell.

The Whole debt Mab had to Anduriel was because she had worked with them before. WOJ before she promoted Leansidhe for that purpose.

[Yuillegan]

My mistake, my mind was elsewhere while I was writing and I had been working late. Skin Games is correct. But just to be clear, she actually HAS worked with Anduriel in the past - quite specifically when she needed to be in two places at once when she took over the Outer Gates management and Anduriel and Nick stood in. Hence the whole reason Harry is on loan in Skin Games, Mab is repaying her surface debt to Anduriel (and of course ultimately her real debt to Nicodemus - revenge). And Con is right, back then she didn't have Lea to stand in.

And who knows what Mab does or doesn't do. We have only seen a small part of her world. I suspect she would work with any being that furthered her goals.

[Mira]

My mistake, my mind was elsewhere while I was writing and I had been working late. Skin Games is correct. But just to be clear, she actually HAS worked with Anduriel in the past - quite specifically when she needed to be in two places at once when she took over the Outer Gates management and Anduriel and Nick stood in. Hence the whole reason Harry is on loan in Skin Games, Mab is repaying her surface debt to Anduriel (and of course ultimately her real debt to Nicodemus - revenge). And Con is right, back then she didn't have Lea to stand in.

And who knows what Mab does or doesn't do. We have only seen a small part of her world. I suspect she would work with any being that furthered her goals.

 Whatever that is, but her basic charge is to protect the Gates.   We also know how tricky she is, with her there is always a loop hole and that she is a master at four dimensional chess, seeing moves four and five moves or more ahead.   Did she know she'd need the weapons kept in the vault way before she acquired the debt to Nic and Anduriel?   She sure as hell would know that Nic would want these weapons for his goals.  I have no doubt that she knows what Harry is, she also seemed to know that he'd become her Knight at some point.  Did she know that Harry would at some point get those relics/weapons but to do it he'd need help from Nic and Andruiel.  It was all a set up from the beginning, Hades said as much, so I wouldn't say that Mab was repaying a favor to Nic and Anduriel. In fact she had used them from the beginning.  This mission was so important that Uriel risked his Grace to make sure it was successful.. You think he would have done that if Mab had played for the other side in any real sense?  In fact I've been thinking,  it is being called his Grace, but in fact Uriel himself went on that mission in the body of Michael,  there is that scene where Michael confronts Nic and what is coming out of his mouth doesn't seem to be coming from Michael.. No, it was coming directly from Uriel. 

[didymos]

In fact I've been thinking,  it is being called his Grace, but in fact Uriel himself went on that mission in the body of Michael,  there is that scene where Michael confronts Nic and what is coming out of his mouth doesn't seem to be coming from Michael.. No, it was coming directly from Uriel.

Considering Uriel was walking around the Carpenter's place at the time, I don't see how he was in Michael's body.

[g33k]

... back then she didn't have Lea to stand in...

Say rather, Lea wasn't yet up to the job; she was still Mab's right hand, but Mab was new and hadn't yet grown into all the powers of her mantle, and Lea similarly hadn't expanded to the powers of being the Queen's right hand, as opposed to the merely the Lady's right hand.

WoJ:

... Mab was originally Winter Lady, and Lea was her Jenny Greenteeth.  She was her sidekick and handmaiden.  And so when Mab got promoted Lea did too ...

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[g33k]

... Let's not forget that after this visit she and Harry went to Vadderung to set up the double cross ...

Actually, the double-cross was planned from long before that point.

The whole thing with Marcone setting up a supernaturals' vault, to be a doorway into Hades' realm (with Hades the first investor):  that was setting up the (eventual) double-cross.

Going to Vadderung?  That was just the loop of the plot needed for Harry to trust whatever agent the plotters were using (Goodman Grey in this case).  Mab could equally have made that call, maybe even Marcone; but Harry wouldn't have been as ready to trust any agent that either one recommended.
 
Vadderung has the role of "the guy Harry can trust" in the long con being run against the plots of the bad guys (and as he's still a relative pawn, the long con is running against Harry too).