Did Bianca die? And was she more powerful than we realised?

[Yuillegan]

Read Grave Peril closely. She is trapped by ghosts and pulled into a hell hole of a burning building, but not body ever seen.

Now admittedly occam says she probably did.

Paolo and Arianna thought she was, and she never shows up again, which she probably would have. And if she didn't die even in Grave Peril, the curse at Chichen Itza probably would have finished her.

Still though, if some savy Vampire or Necromancer or both had decided to rescue her and protect her in the Never-never, it would make for a terrifying return.

Also - is it just me or is it very scary how powerful she was, magically speaking? She almost seemed as strong as Mavra, and used magic that Mavra used rather than the traditional Red Court stuff (Red Lightning, elemental stuff etc). Gathering shadows was almost a direct copy of Mavra's abilities and seemed very lethal - it killed a Red Court vampire outright turning it to dust, and she was able to block Harry's direct shots.

One could argue that Jim had not yet really established what Vampire magic looked like at that point, and was going for the more generic Dark Magic stuff. Still though, I think it is worth discussing.

[Kindler]

I have a feeling she WILL return, but just in Mirror, Mirror. Unless Harry went ahead and nuked her building from orbit or something.

[g33k]

I have a feeling she WILL return, but just in Mirror, Mirror. Unless Harry went ahead and nuked her building from orbit or something.

I think she's dead-dead.  D-E-D dead.

She may get summoned back by necromancy, I suppose...?

I don't think she's eligible for a Mirror-Mirror return:  she died before the end of the book, where the Mirrorverse diverged; so she's dead-dead in both timelines.

[Just Al]

she died before the end of the book, where the Mirrorverse diverged

I missed something. How do we know where the mirrorverse diverged?

[Bad Alias]

We know it diverged with a "major decision" near "the end" of the book. I've heard arguments for a major decision after the battle. I think the only plausible major decisions are from before the climatic battle.

I think she died, but she could have been pulled into the Nevernever by the ghosts whose domain was close but drifted farther and farther away until it qualified for that WoJ about where a RCV could have survived. I'd call it possible but not plausible.

She does seem more powerful than all the vampires we've seen except the LotON and maybe Mavra. We honestly haven't seen Mavra pull off a lot of impressive magic. Harry notes the long range telepathy and veil as impressive. Additionally, he credits Mavra with teaching Bianca. I think that implies that Mavra would be more skilled, but Harry isn't better at fine magic than Molly.

[g33k]

I missed something. How do we know where the mirrorverse diverged?

Word of Jim:
https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-future-df-works/

Dresden as he would have been if he made one choice differently... the big decision at the end of Grave Peril

There's been a fair bit of discussion and debate about what "the big decision" is; even about what "at the end" of the book is... how FAR back from the end.

My own vote is from the very, very end of the book -- Harry lets Susan walk away.  He could have argued harder, probably could have convinced her.

The fallout from that -- Susan never goes to Latin America, never gets recruited by St. Giles down there (maybe some North American branch reaches her?), so she never places any Little Maggie with the peasant family, the Reds never get their ammo for the Bloodline Curse (and Harry won't have boomerang'ed it on them), etc etc etc...

Mirror!Harry then has a local half-Ramp ally in Susan, like he has a Whamp ally in Thomas; tactically, Harry is MUCH more dangerous; strategically, it's a disaster:  you can just IMAGINE how much the White Council would love THAT, and the odds of escaping their notice drop exponentially (since everyone knew that Harry & Susan were "a thing").  They probably figure out he's gone over to the Vamp side of things, and is one of the Ramp/Whamp cooperation channels.

Having Harry!Prime meeting Mirror!Susan will F*** with his mind in all sorts of fun ways, I'm sure Jim will love the chance to torment Harry that way.

I also argue that this is "the big decision" because it was THE big decision -- the one about Love.

===

My second choice choice-point is at the beginning of the battle with Bianca -- she threatens him with open war, points out she already has Susan half-turned and the other half is inevitable.

And Mirror!Harry caves.

He takes her bargain, walks out with Justine, yielding the field to Bianca.  In this case, Mirror!Bianca is alive, Mirror!Susan is full-Ramp (with an extra hate-on for Harry, for not saving her).

That decision would ALSO have been about Love; and Mirror!Harry will have such an abiding self-loathing after that, I can imagine it beginning his slide down to the dark side.

[KurtinStGeorge]

I think she's dead-dead.  D-E-D dead.

She may get summoned back by necromancy, I suppose...?

I don't think she's eligible for a Mirror-Mirror return:  she died before the end of the book, where the Mirrorverse diverged; so she's dead-dead in both timelines.

I don't think so.  If the decision was to give up Susan, then Bianca isn't dead in the Mirror Mirror world.  Or at least she didn't die in that version of Grave Peril; she could have died afterwards before Harry gets pulled over to that parallel world.  For example, what if in the Mirror Mirror world Red Court vampire Susan took her revenge on Bianca and took her place as the head Red Court vamp in Chicago?  Imagine our Harry's reaction when he thinks he is going to meet Bianca again, only to meet RCV Susan instead?   

Also, if Jim was misleading us by saying the decision occurred near the end of Grave Peril and it really occurred 60% - 75% through that story, then Bianca could also be alive in the Mirror Mirror world.

[g33k]

...  If the decision was to give up Susan, then Bianca isn't dead in the Mirror Mirror world ...

You are correct, of course.  So long as the choice happens before the ghosts drag Bianca to downbelow, she may be alive in the Mirror!verse.

As I indicated above, that's a 2ndary chance.

IMHO, it's a distant 2nd:  Jim said it was "at the end," (which other choices aren't) and he called it "the" choice, and this one is about Love.  Harry finally said it... too late, in Prime!verse.
 

[Maz]

What's really funny is ever since JB gave that answer I had presumed Mirror Harry elected to do the "right" thing by White Council standards and didn't go in to rescue Susan, never bonded with Michael or Thomas, fostered animosity against the White Council for "causing" the loss of Susan and all these other things, and therefore eventually donned a black hat.

[SerScot]

The Red Court is dead.  Here's hoping they stay that way. 

[g33k]

The Red Court is dead.  Here's hoping they stay that way.

Given Grave Peril as the divergence for Mirror,Mirror, I expect the Ramps are still going strong in the Mirror'verse; I can't see the whole little-Maggie / Martin / Bloodline-Curse playing out to get rid of them again.  Plus, it's yet another element with which to inflict misery upon Harry, in that book...  I can't see Jim leaving such a marvelous torment un-used.

But that's the Mirror'verse.  In the Harry-Prime Dresden'verse, I expect they'll stay dead.

Though if Jim wants to bring them back, it's easy enough to posit a Ramp war-party having been deep in the Nevernever, and insulted from the Bloodline Curse.  Or alternately / similarly, to say that the "black, leathery" Ramp inside the fleshmask is originally some sort of nevernever creature (n.b. the Ik seemed to be of a similar sort), and there's more of them still off wherever the first one(s) came from.
 

[Dina]

What's really funny is ever since JB gave that answer I had presumed Mirror Harry elected to do the "right" thing by White Council standards and didn't go in to rescue Susan, never bonded with Michael or Thomas, fostered animosity against the White Council for "causing" the loss of Susan and all these other things, and therefore eventually donned a black hat.

I think the same

[Arjan]

I think the same

I do but not exactly that way, not dramatic enough. And not last moment enough.

The real decision point is when he actually starts the war.

"For the sake of one soul. For one loved one. For one life." I called power into my blasting rod, and its tip glowed incandescent white. "The way I see it there's nothing else worth fighting a war for."

The mirror mirror Harry accepted the red courts proposal to avoid a war. That was not the right decision.

[RCRanger03]

Though if Jim wants to bring them back, it's easy enough to posit a Ramp war-party having been deep in the Nevernever, and insulted from the Bloodline Curse.  Or alternately / similarly, to say that the "black, leathery" Ramp inside the fleshmask is originally some sort of nevernever creature (n.b. the Ik seemed to be of a similar sort), and there's more of them still off wherever the first one(s) came from.

I think if the Reds come back it will be the Eebs

[Aminar]

What's really funny is ever since JB gave that answer I had presumed Mirror Harry elected to do the "right" thing by White Council standards and didn't go in to rescue Susan, never bonded with Michael or Thomas, fostered animosity against the White Council for "causing" the loss of Susan and all these other things, and therefore eventually donned a black hat.

I like to think he chose to leave the party with Susan and left Michael or that he took Susan instead of Michael. Both leave things in interesting spots that are wildly different. But the big part there becomes no war, Susan sticks around, Harry settles down, and he becomes reluctant to get involved. He's starting to do that now with Maggie and I think it will serve as an eye opener to him about how inaction lets chaos thrive.