Harry's use of Black Magic

[Mira]

Quote

    “Maeve’s an immortal, Harry. One of the least of the immortals, maybe, but immortal all the same. Chop her up if you want to. Burn her. Scatter her ashes to the winds. But it won’t kill her. She’ll be back. Maybe in months, maybe years, but you can’t just kill her. She’s the Winter Lady.”

But does that apply after their mantle has found a new vessel?  The mantle is immortal, but the vessel is only as long as then mantle resides with in the vessel.  Aurora did die, the mantle left her body and entered the body of Lily.  Maeve, the vessel died, the mantle of the Winter Lady moved on to Molly, that is the immortal part.

[noblehunter]

I think the implication is that the mantle only moved on because of where Aurora was. If she'd been on the streets of Chicago on Sept 8th, Aurora would have popped up somewhere as more or less the same being. It could be that even if the power had returned to Titania like it's supposed to, Aurora would have "survived."

[Mira]

I think the implication is that the mantle only moved on because of where Aurora was. If she'd been on the streets of Chicago on Sept 8th, Aurora would have popped up somewhere as more or less the same being. It could be that even if the power had returned to Titania like it's supposed to, Aurora would have "survived."

page 295 Summer Knight

She was merely a vessel, the mantle is passed on to a reflection of itself.

[didymos]

page 295 Summer Knight
 

She was merely a vessel, the mantle is passed on to a reflection of itself.

Harry was only able to kill her permanently because of where she was:

I frowned. “Huh? I killed the Summer Lady just fine.”
Bob made a frustrated sound. “Yeah, but that was because you were in the right place to do it.”
 “How’s that?”
 “Mab and Titania created that place specifically to be a killing ground for immortals, a place where balances of power are supposed to change. They’ve got to have a location like that for the important fights—otherwise nothing really gets decided. It’s a waste of everyone’s time and cannon fodder.”

Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 95). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

[Mira]

   However as Harry has pointed out,  Bob doesn't know everything..  Maeve and Lily were killed on
Demonreach island,  the mantles have moved on.  Is this another special place for killing?  They are dead, were they not, the mantles would not have moved on.

[morriswalters]

It was Halloween.

[Bad Alias]

When the supernatural in the series refers to Mortals, they are referring to beings with Free Will.

Not always. They're kind of sloppy with the term. Sometimes wizards aren't considered mortals and sometimes they are.

See also Sarissa’s remark about her boyfriends in Cold Days. That deal with nemesis did not come out of thin air.

That sounds like a reference to what we saw unfold in Cold Case.

The Fae can be killed,  Aurora was killed by steel box knives, Maeve, by a bullet, Lily, by a bullet.
Jim is going by the Tolkien rule for elves, they are basically immortal but they can be killed by violence.

No one is arguing that Fae can't be killed. Fae are killed left and right. The statement is that immortals can't be killed. That's why they're immortals. We learn in Cold Days that immortals can be killed at/during certain conjunctions.

And I say statement because there's no need to make an argument over that point. It's explicit. If you're going to say that the Lady's aren't immortal, you've got the burden to come with an argument other than "they aren't immortals because they were killed during what we've been told are conjunctions where immortals can be killed."

[Mira]

No one is arguing that Fae can't be killed. Fae are killed left and right. The statement is that immortals can't be killed. That's why they're immortals. We learn in Cold Days that immortals can be killed at/during certain conjunctions.

And I say statement because there's no need to make an argument over that point. It's explicit. If you're going to say that the Lady's aren't immortal, you've got the burden to come with an argument other than "they aren't immortals because they were killed during what we've been told are conjunctions where immortals can be killed."

  Dead is dead,  there may be conditions, times, and places only that they can be killed.. But dead is dead.   That is why I mentioned that Jim seems to be going by Tolkien's rule for elves, they are immortal for the most part, but they can be killed in battle, lots of dead elves haunting the Dead Marshes for example. 

Titania wouldn't be so upset if she knew for a fact that Aurora would live again, she isn't. 

[Arjan]

That sounds like a reference to what we saw unfold in Cold Case.

Yes and I got the impression that she kept trying. Something Molly would never do.

[Yuillegan]

Mira, not to be rude, but you are being stubborn. Didymos has shown you evidence, and you are refusing it because it doesn't line up with your theory. Sorry, but you're wrong.

As for the whole Bob doesn't know everything...Harry's opinion on Bob is subjective, not objective. So Harry could be wrong about Bob, according to you logic. See the issue?

Besides which that was just poor writing on Jim's part. I have pointed it out before but the "revelation" about Soulfire that Harry has in Cold Days is almost exactly the same as Bob's explanation of it to him in Small Favor when he first gets it. I know Jim gets to read several different versions of each book so he forgets sometimes what he has written, and is often very busy both professionally and personally (he is only human after all) but nonetheless, it was almost a flat out error. But I love his work, so I make it work in my head. But looking at it dispassionately it is poor form.

So to repeat:

Immortals are qualitatively different from mortals. They can only be truly killed in certain places in space (Chicago-above-Chicago) and time (conjunctions - Halloween). They are not the same as the Elves of middle-earth, although normal Fae might be similar. Immortals like Hades, Mab, the Mothers, Angels and the Ladies can be burned, chopped up or shot etc but will always reform, unless killed in those specific circumstances mentioned above. Then the actual holder of the mantle changes, and the mantle can be consumed. That's the whole plot of Summer Knight, trying to absorb the energy of the Knight to unbalance the Courts. And is also what Bob talks about when he is explaining his secret in Cold Days, that this is how Immortals feed/run free. That was why Bob's information was so dangerous it warranted his destruction.

[Mira]

Immortals are qualitatively different from mortals. They can only be truly killed in certain places in space (Chicago-above-Chicago

Thank you for making my argument..   If they can die under any circumstances no matter how special they are not truly immortal.  Uriel is immortal, the fallen trapped in the coins are,  Vadderung most likely is, many of the inmates on Demonreach most likely are,  but the Ladies and the Queens are not, simply because in certain places under certain conditions they can be killed.   

[didymos]

They're called immortals in the text.

[morriswalters]

The closer you look at this the less there is to see.  Immortality is an inferred state. It's meaningless in any true sense. You can't see the endpoints. How would you know the White God can't be killed?  All Bob can know is that the WG hasn't been killed yet. In the books, immortality means precisely what Butcher needs it to mean.

Immortals are qualitatively different from mortals. They can only be truly killed in certain places in space (Chicago-above-Chicago) and time (conjunctions - Halloween)..

I'll point out the problem. If this is true why not detonate Demonreach on Halloween?  Use the banefire and end the problem forever.  Obviously an eternal prison was way cooler, storywise.  And I'm not seeing why this would make any difference to  Norse God like Odin.

Probably the closest Jim has come to making sense of this is considering it in terms of matter and energy, which can change state but not be destroyed. Which is what immortals are doing during Halloween and Chicago over Chicago.

A slight digression here.  Have you ever considered why Maeve was so pissed?  I'll share my opinion.  Momma turned Maeve into an eternal virgin while Sarissa got eternal youth without all the silly limitations. Talk about screwed?

Well, carry on.

[Arjan]

A slight digression here.  Have you ever considered why Maeve was so pissed?  I'll share my opinion.  Momma turned Maeve into an eternal virgin while Sarissa got eternal youth without all the silly limitations. Talk about screwed?

I thought that was obvious.

But here you see the difference between Maeve and Molly.
Maeve thinks I am screwed, I get everything else screwed even more.
Molly thinks I have a duty, it is really important, get over it.

[Mira]

They're called immortals in the text.

  Perhaps, but if there is a way to kill them, they aren't.  Yes, if nothing happens to where they are plotted against and murdered under the right conditions,  so immortal, but there are loop holes for the sake of the plot if nothing else.

The closer you look at this the less there is to see.  Immortality is an inferred state. It's meaningless in any true sense. You can't see the endpoints. How would you know the White God can't be killed?  All Bob can know is that the WG hasn't been killed yet. In the books, immortality means precisely what Butcher needs it to mean.

Exactly, loop holes to be used by the author to further the plot..  If Aurora, Maeve, or Lily need to die to further the plot, Jim will dream up a loop hole so they can be killed, Halloween, the Stone Table, whatever..

A slight digression here.  Have you ever considered why Maeve was so pissed?  I'll share my opinion.  Momma turned Maeve into an eternal virgin while Sarissa got eternal youth without all the silly limitations. Talk about screwed?

Indeed.. No doubt as time goes on Molly will be a bit pissed about it also..  It also may account for Mab's sadistic application of sex when needed to her knight..  It was used to inflict pain on Slate, and to make Harry supposedly hers...