Harry's use of Black Magic

[Bad Alias]

This thread seems like the most appropriate place to drop this quote that struck me.

[T]he First Law of Magic prohibited using it[magic] to kill a human being. There was some grey area involved with it, but not much, and it was the sort of thing one didn't play around with.

The Warrior about a third of the way in.

It's almost never as simple as the black letter law, and I think we all can/have agreed to that. That the 1st Law has a grey area isn't what surprised me. It was that I didn't recall Harry ever saying anything like that. (I haven't read the short stories as much as the books). This quote doesn't really inform us of much. He might only be referring to the "defense of self or others from black magic" exception. He might be referring to that and some other things.

I do think this is probably the most succinct and detailed in text description of the 1st Law we have in text.

[Mira]

This thread seems like the most appropriate place to drop this quote that struck me.The Warrior about a third of the way in.

It's almost never as simple as the black letter law, and I think we all can/have agreed to that. That the 1st Law has a grey area isn't what surprised me. It was that I didn't recall Harry ever saying anything like that. (I haven't read the short stories as much as the books). This quote doesn't really inform us of much. He might only be referring to the "defense of self or others from black magic" exception. He might be referring to that and some other things.

I do think this is probably the most succinct and detailed in text description of the 1st Law we have in text.

  I don't remember reading that but it has been a while since I read "The Warrior,"  it is one of my favorites.  I've always felt that there was a lot of "grey" area when it comes to the First Law.  I think the real question is how it is rationalized when one breaks it, some are harder on themselves than others.

[Bad Alias]

I'd say there's "not much" grey area and the real question is what is that grey area.

[Arjan]

I'd say there's "not much" grey area and the real question is what is that grey area.

Anything Jim wants

If we talk about the councils laws it is best to ignore the natural underpinning that inspired it and just go for how human law works because the laws and their interpretation are just human work.

A simple law can never include all circumstances of what can happen and there must be a long tradition about how it was interpreted in all kind of situations and the results.   

And it is not about morality. You can use a magic sword to kill someone or bind someone with magic an use a knife.

And it is not exactly about black magic taint either. I am sure that there are ways to taint yourself not covered by the laws.

It is about damage control as Lucio explained to Harry (White Night or dead beat if I remember correctly)

[Mira]

Anything Jim wants

If we talk about the councils laws it is best to ignore the natural underpinning that inspired it and just go for how human law works because the laws and their interpretation are just human work.

A simple law can never include all circumstances of what can happen and there must be a long tradition about how it was interpreted in all kind of situations and the results.   

And it is not about morality. You can use a magic sword to kill someone or bind someone with magic an use a knife.

And it is not exactly about black magic taint either. I am sure that there are ways to taint yourself not covered by the laws.

It is about damage control as Lucio explained to Harry (White Night or dead beat if I remember correctly)

That is why a lot of it beyond what blantently breaks the First Law is a matter of rationalization of the one doing it...  No, you might not lose your head because of it, perhaps it had to be done, but how do you feel about it?  That is what nibbles at the soul..

[Melriken]

But supposedly Mab began as a human, Molly, as far as we know is still human..

Molly uses a cellphone and magic... Molly isn’t (entirely?) human anymore.

[Mira]

Molly uses a cellphone and magic... Molly isn’t (entirely?) human anymore.

  Though I don't think that has been fully explained, because though she is Winter Lady now, she is still a wizard.   Come to think of it the apartment she had before she became Winter Lady had hot water and all the stuff that Harry's old place didn't.  Now it could be because the Stava elves, sorry about the mangled spelling set it up for her... So it is unclear whether or not she is now human has anything to do with it.  Or it could be that yeah, wizards and tech don't mix, but maybe Harry's place was like it was because he enjoyed the nineteenth century gloom..

[Bad Alias]

I'm pretty sure Molly's place was like that because the Svartalves are master craftsmen. I have a feeling they get Harry a computer (see Vadderung's computer that doesn't explode). I think they have enough understanding of both magic and technology to build either technology that can stand up to a practitioner's aura or whatever, or they can make some sort of magical equivalent.

Molly uses a cellphone and magic... Molly isn’t (entirely?) human anymore.

That's kinda the million dollar question. Faeries don't have souls. Mantels generally overwrite the holder's personality. But not necessarily. So is Molly human? Has her soul been destroyed?

[Arjan]

That's kinda the million dollar question. Faeries don't have souls. Mantels generally overwrite the holder's personality. But not necessarily. So is Molly human? Has her soul been destroyed?

Or it is a meaningless question because it depends on how you define human in a magical world were humans can transform in countless ways with all intermediates.

Biologically she is human. Mab can breed with humans and get fertile offspring. Does a soul make you human? Apparently not if a human can loose it.

So in this case I would say it is not about a definition of human something different groups in the dresdenverse probably can not agree on anyway but it is about acceptance and self identification.

Does she see herself as human?
Do other humans see her as human?
Do non humans see her as human?

If all three is yes then she is human. Otherwise it is debatable.

[Bad Alias]

I'd say having a soul is a fundamental requirement for being a human, at least in the DF, at least metaphysically. Perhaps we should use the term mortal instead of human.

[Arjan]

I'd say having a soul is a fundamental requirement for being a human, at least in the DF, at least metaphysically. Perhaps we should use the term mortal instead of human.

And how do you decide someone still has a soul? According to woj even Mab might have a little bit left.

And mortal also is a hazy concept. Ask Maeve.

[morriswalters]

Molly quit being mortal when she started being the Winter Lady.  The base definition of mortal is someone who can die.  That's the least vague definition Jim uses.

[Arjan]

Molly quit being mortal when she started being the Winter Lady.  The base definition of mortal is someone who can die.  That's the least vague definition Jim uses.

They can die under specific circumstances. Really immortal here means just more difficult to kill.

[didymos]

They can die under specific circumstances. Really immortal here means just more difficult to kill.

Well, that and living forever as long as someone doesn't manage to kill you.

[Arjan]

Well, that and living forever as long as someone doesn't manage to kill you.

The gatekeeper is older than some immortals. It seems that using a lot of magic keeps you young.

Wizard healing is one step up from normal people. Are they all human?