Harry's use of Black Magic

[Arjan]

I'm not sure what you mean by "bidirectional," but if you mean that believing in something and acting on that belief with magic makes you believe it more, then I don't see any support for that. I mean habits are a thing, and if you have to believe in your magic, then using magic to do a thing is demonstration of that belief. That's what the scene outside the brothel tells us.

That is the whole idea behind the capital punishment for breaking the laws. Even if you broke them unintentional by accident or mistake and have genuine regrets etc. The mere fact that you broke them makes breaking them again more likely.

If Harry had not seriously thought about it and taken action Lasciel would have found it easier and easier to make him vent his rage on objects and one mistake could have made it even worse.

[Mira]

There really isn't anything more hideous and profane that you could do to yourself.  It's twisted, warped... And it's YOU, a piece of your very soul is warped.

  Yes, and I am saying that no magical staff is going to protect Eb from that.  At the end of the day while he may be a wizard, he is still human.  I believe it is that little factoid that so shocked Harry in
Blood Rites when he found out that Eb was the Council's assassin.

[g33k]

Yes, and I am saying that no magical staff is going to protect Eb from that.  At the end of the day while he may be a wizard, he is still human...

Yeah, it's a thing I don't understand.

How does the Blackstaff (the object) disconnect a wizard from that "stain," or keep their psyche from starting down that slippery slope?  Per WoJ, that's all the staff really does -- it isn't a powerup, it doesn't add Extra Winter Ooomph to the magic of the wielder.

It prevents the slide into cackling insane megalomaniacal villainy... but how?

 

[Arjan]

Yeah, it's a thing I don't understand.

How does the Blackstaff (the object) disconnect a wizard from that "stain," or keep their psyche from starting down that slippery slope?  Per WoJ, that's all the staff really does -- it isn't a powerup, it doesn't add Extra Winter Ooomph to the magic of the wielder.

It prevents the slide into cackling insane megalomaniacal villainy... but how?

From Changes:

I also saw veins of venomous black begin to ooze their way over the old man’s hand, reaching up slowly, spreading to his wrist. He grimaced and held his left forearm with his right hand for a moment, then looked over his shoulder and said, “All right!”

I think it takes the purely magical part of the corruption, the part that makes it addictive. The consequences of your choices for your soul are still yours.

[Mira]

I think it takes the purely magical part of the corruption, the part that makes it addictive. The consequences of your choices for your soul are still yours.

   Or as the old saying goes, "you cannot have your cake and eat it too.."   Eb can kill with magic and as long as he has the staff, he will not get the black magic blow back..  However it doesn't protect the little bit of his human soul that shrivels each time he does.

[Yuillegan]

Yes, the Blackstaff doesn't protect Eb from his conscience. That has been explicitly stated by Jim. But in that same WOJ, he also says it DOES protect him from Black Magic corruption, which is a magical effect (think nuclear radiation). Every time you use black magic (that nebulous term), it warps and changes and transforms the caster into a monster, a warlock. However not Eb. Eb's staff protects him (although likely there is a terrible cost) from that magical effect. The effect on his conscience, that has nothing to do with magic and everything to do with vanilla mortal moral concerns, is unavoidable.

Eb might still become (or perhaps already is) a monster in the human sense, like a murderer or rapist. But not in the magical, supernatural sense like a vampire or liche or warlock.

As G33k says, those who employ the forces of magic are not like vanilla mortals and so the are affected by forces vanilla mortals have no contact with, i.e. magic. And there are special consequences for them beyond that which vanilla mortals have for morally repugnant actions.

I think it is clear that it might stain his soul, but not in the SAME way that black magic stains. Just in the normal horrible moral way the rest of us have to live with.

[Mira]

I think it is clear that it might stain his soul, but not in the SAME way that black magic stains. Just in the normal horrible moral way the rest of us have to live with.

  Yeah well, there are some pretty horrible vanilla monsters out there without the aid of any black magic.

[Yuillegan]

Exactly. I might argue that in some ways they are even worse.

[Darmani]

I realize the laws of magic exist as a story conceit in order to make it so things are not too easy and that we know who the good guys and the bad guys are. Plus Synod to the religions that actually value magic and as a result probably don't like the idea that it's a shortcut to murder while keeping your hands clean. But still the fact that there's no way to game the system just feels off especially when you consider how much of magical tradition either from fairy tales or so on get tossed off by it. You can't use enchantment or any sort of lethal force or even Transformations even if they would be beneficial or at least considerably less lethal
To be fair it seems as if some intention matters. As an example you're not supposed to invade the mind of the other but the Merlin was able to do that whole communication spell when Peabody attacked. In addition to the spell that Elaine and Carrie have used since their youth. It's just that any psychics chicanery has a tendency to both spiral and blow back on you

For instance if someone said I want to quit smoking they will probably allow you to walk into their mind figure out anything you could in order to make them stop smoking. I guess what bothers me most about that prescription is that I can think of many uses for being able to use mind control or enchanting magic to prevent or Aid the Wizards. Summer movie memories to just saying please go away I don't want to deal with this s***. With the extra Hammer coming down when you use it to actually violate proper laws

While I appreciate his whole you can't blow someone off a roof and then not paint yourself this makes you wonder about things like what's his name when he use body magic in order to make him move really fast but killed with an ordinary knife. Seems like just as much of a hotfix as the warden's swords that dispel magic but it's the edge that kills you. My personal consideration is shape-shifting. I shape-shift myself into a hippo and then I murder almost everybody I can with this top-tier murder Beast that was considered more mythical and dangerous than some dragons

I have directly use magic in order to kill someone that is to say the entire alternate form so am I tainted or not?

Considering the danger of using direct for spells surely there's got to be a class of medication that at the very least makes it so that you can fight mortal opponents and don't end up running the risk of going cray cray. As an example why doesn't president ever use that rope trick that set up a sex scene as the basis for Ward's or evocation fighting style for when he's outside his office but doesn't know if he's up against acceptable targets

[Mira]

For instance if someone said I want to quit smoking they will probably allow you to walk into their mind figure out anything you could in order to make them stop smoking. I guess what bothers me most about that prescription is that I can think of many uses for being able to use mind control or enchanting magic to prevent or Aid the Wizards. Summer movie memories to just saying please go away I don't want to deal with this s***. With the extra Hammer coming down when you use it to actually violate proper laws

The key here is "allow,"  the kid who's mind Molly invaded didn't give her permission.   Molly also in over her head as far as how to go about it so she did a lot of damage in the process.   While her intentions were good, the results wasn't.   Molly is the poster child for both sides of the argument about the slippery slope down into warlockhood.  Harry argued that since her intentions were good and that she had no clue and was basically a good kid she should be allowed to live.. He put his own life on the line for that gamble.. The Merlin argued the slippery slope and she should get the chop.  Both were kind of right, but also wrong..  Harry was right about her good intentions and that basically a good kid, but the Merlin was right because Molly never learned her lesson, even was willing to put Harry's life at risk under the Doom because she felt she knew best and to hell with the consequences or the slippery slope.

[g33k]

... But still the fact that there's no way to game the system just feels off

There ARE ways to "game the system," such as Warden Swords (which you noted yourself).  The Blackstaff is another.

Offhand, it strikes me that making a deal with some magical being (who isn't subject to the Laws) is another.  From a legalistic standpoint, the Wardens may come to snickersnack you anyhow, if you're hiring murder from the fae (or whoever... or whatever!) but I don't think it's the same sort of soul-staining "black magic."
 

... You can't use enchantment or any sort of lethal force or even Transformations even if they would be beneficial or at least considerably less lethal ...

Actually, I suspect this of being an "unintended consequence."  Jim figured out the principals of Dresdenverse magic, then realized that the violation-of-Self that is a forced-transform would be a violation of the Laws.  He still got Lea to do it in the Yucatan, of course...  But as noted, she's one of those "not subject to the Laws" beings.

Or maybe I'm mistaken, and Jim wanted this to be specifically illegal.  IIRC, Jim has stated that he's going to have Harry break every single law before the books are done.  I'd love to read the scene where Harry transforms the entire White Council into a flock of fluffy white sheep...    

... As an example you're not supposed to invade the mind of the other but the Merlin was able to do that whole communication spell when Peabody attacked ...

I suspect there's some sort of loophole for a 1-way projection which the recipient perceives as a normal sensation, i.e. audio.  The wizard isn't doing any mind-reading, which is explicitly verboten, and isn't imposing his will on the victim, which is also verboten (not imposing his will any more than he would if he were speaking verbally).  It was a virtuoso performance by the Merlin, a sort of "trick shot" that few-to-no other wizards could have duplicated (maybe (_eventually) Molly?).
 

... In addition to the spell that Elaine and CarrieHarry have used since their youth.
...
For instance if someone said I want to quit smoking they will probably allow you to walk into their mind figure out anything you could in order to make them stop smoking ...

Elaine & Harry used it willingly and mutually:  both were aware, neither was a "victim."  There was no "invasion" or subversion of the will -- those are the critical components that make black magic so bad.

I expect smoking-cessation to be right on the fringes, and easily stray over the line.  Remember that what Molly did was try to cure drug addiction!  So if you go spelunking around in someone's mind to "figure out anything," that may be a problem; free will is a critical element in the Dresdenverse.  If the addict later wants a cigarette (or vape, or whatever) and your spell keeps them from doing it... you have impeded their free will.  It's not just a matter of the wizard getting some "open sesame" magic words to agree to this; that's more a faerie condition.  Humans get to change their minds, and your spell prevented that; the effects are liable to be just as bad as they were for Rosie and for Nelson.

... just saying please go away I don't want to deal with this s*** ...

Yeah, this is 100% black magic, right there.  It's imposing your own will directly on another mind, taking away their own free will.  And for what?  Some petty annoyance...

The Wardens will be with you shortly.   

... he use body magic in order to make him move really fast but killed with an ordinary knife ...

I think you're correct in this; it's black magic (or at least black-ish, very-very-dark-grey). 

... Seems like just as much of a hotfix as the warden's swords that dispel magic but it's the edge that kills you.

That's very different.  The sword, when it kills you, kills you identically to any sword:  completely non-magically.  The dispel-magic effect just strips away your magical (non-natural) advantage.

The guy who used magical speed was getting a non-natural advantage in doing murder.  It may not have been magic that proximately killed, but the kill was aided and enhanced by magic, in a way that could not be naturally achieved.
 

... My personal consideration is shape-shifting. I shape-shift myself into a hippo and then I murder almost everybody I can with this top-tier murder Beast that was considered more mythical and dangerous than some dragons

I have directly use magic in order to kill someone that is to say the entire alternate form so am I tainted or not? ...

Again, I think you've captured it well.  And yes, this is black magic.

Will & the Alphas aren't black-magic-tainted because when they go for a kill they are fighting non-humans (well, OK -- they do threaten some human wizards; but never IIRC kill any).  In Fool Moon, the other werewolves are actually killing people, and (if a Warden came visiting) would thus get snickersnack'ed.

Considering the danger of using direct for spells surely there's got to be a class of medication that at the very least makes it so that you can fight mortal opponents and don't end up running the risk of going cray cray.

If you could get a medically & scientifically trained wizard, that seems like something that could MAYBE be done... if you could find a medicine that effect the soul...  OTOH, I'm not sure the White Council would be at ease with the idea of taking a pill to be able to break the Laws.  The potential for abuse looks WAY worse than the upsides.

... that rope trick that set up a sex scene as the basis for Ward's or evocation fighting style for when he's outside his office but doesn't know if he's up against acceptable targets

Agreed:  immobilizations look like a great option that Harry under-uses (but as to the specifics of those ropes, they were specially prepared and IIRC only usable within the confines of Harry's own home -- he stated that he'd need more experience before he could craft something usable anywhere).

But we saw in Small Favor (in the scene fighting Tessa) that Harry now has at least some ability to manipulate chains & such; so presumably he could, with practice, do something that would more fully entangle a foe.

I think ordinary ropes look like an "iffy" proposition, though:  looping around someone in a way to genuinely immobilize them is kinda tricky, then tying a knot remotely is another level of fine control.  These aren't Harry's strong suits!  And while he's focused on tying up the mortal, anyone else is free to blindside him.

Some sort of pre-enchanted rope might work; or rather a set of them:  carry a few lengths of rope all "tangled" together, throw them at the target and they automagically untangle, into half a dozen or so lengths that swiftly tie the target at ankles, knees, wrists, and elbows (with no attention needed after the initial throw).  Although Harry seems to have less talent for working subtle & sophisticated magics on the fly, his enchanted items are really above-par, including subtle & sophisticated magic!

[Bad Alias]

I also don't completely buy that the staff protects him from the effects of "the black magic" of making a kill.  Other that perhaps a righteous feeling that he did what had to be done, killing someone eats a little away from Eb's mind, heart, and soul and has nothing to do with black magic. No, Eb isn't protected from his own conscience.

Q:  How is Eb protected from black magic?
A:  The Blackstaff is a literal black staff.  He hasn’t had it when we’ve seen him, but he has it and it protects him.

Q:  Can you tell us a little more about the black staff?
A:   The staff keeps Eb from going crazy, mostly.  Also, the White Council stole it from someone.  And they really want it back.
When Eb does his “Laying of the Cattle move” at the major battle near the end of Changes, is that a power of the blackstaff?
The Blackstaff is what keeps that kind of thing from driving him insane and turning him into a giggling villain.  Yah you don’t go messing with black magic in the Dresden Files, it’s very very bad for you.  At the same time, Magic is something that happens because you truly believe that when you set out to do it that you should be able to do that sort of thing.  That says a few things about Eb that really Harry hasn’t run into in any other forum other than right there.  Yah Poor guy, He’s got a tough job.

Does the blackstaff have any powers that relate to the dead?
Other than making people dead?  Really, that’s kind of the point [Crowd Laughs]  Really but the staff itself what it really does is it keeps Eb sane while he’s doing insane things.  Lucky him, he gets to deal with a hideously guilty conscious and nightmares later, but that’s better than later being like *Muahahahahahahahaha*  Which is sort of the other option if your going to go around using magic like that.

The Blackstaff is not sentient per se it’s just really, really, really powerful and tapped into like some serious elemental powers in the universe.  But basically all it really is is insulation from using those powers.

The staff 100% protects Eb from the "black magic." It 0% protects him from the effects of having killed, as if he killed with a bomb or some mortal equivalent.

Magic is, per WoJ, a little piece of the fundamental fires of Creation.  It is a piece of your very soul that still resonates with that joyous and Divine act...  Fiat Lux!

The first sentence is correct and implies the second. But that raises the question of how then is plain magic different from Soul Fire? Is the implication simply just wrong? I don't have any good answers to this one.

Yes, the Blackstaff doesn't protect Eb from his conscience. That has been explicitly stated by Jim. But in that same WOJ, he also says it DOES protect him from Black Magic corruption, which is a magical effect (think nuclear radiation). Every time you use black magic (that nebulous term), it warps and changes and transforms the caster into a monster, a warlock. However not Eb. Eb's staff protects him (although likely there is a terrible cost) from that magical effect. The effect on his conscience, that has nothing to do with magic and everything to do with vanilla mortal moral concerns, is unavoidable.

Eb might still become (or perhaps already is) a monster in the human sense, like a murderer or rapist. But not in the magical, supernatural sense like a vampire or liche or warlock.

As G33k says, those who employ the forces of magic are not like vanilla mortals and so the are affected by forces vanilla mortals have no contact with, i.e. magic. And there are special consequences for them beyond that which vanilla mortals have for morally repugnant actions.

I think it is clear that it might stain his soul, but not in the SAME way that black magic stains. Just in the normal horrible moral way the rest of us have to live with.

Agreed. Black magic is black magic because of the black magic corruption. Slippery slope corruption is just the normal psychological consequences of doing a thing. Black magic has nothing to do with slippery slopes.

[Mira]

Agreed. Black magic is black magic because of the black magic corruption. Slippery slope corruption is just the normal psychological consequences of doing a thing. Black magic has nothing to do with slippery slopes.

  Maybe we are going at this all wrong.   What the black staff is, is a cheat..  Simply because there are things/people out in the real world that have to be eliminated, and the only way to do it is with what is considered black magic.  Supposedly it protects the user 100% from the blow back, or what we are calling the slippery slope...  Even Jim says;

Other than making people dead?  Really, that’s kind of the point [Crowd Laughs]  Really but the staff itself what it really does is it keeps Eb sane while he’s doing insane things.  Lucky him, he gets to deal with a hideously guilty conscious and nightmares later, but that’s better than later being like *Muahahahahahahahaha*  Which is sort of the other option if your going to go around using magic like that.

Here is the thing though, in the wrong hands can the black staff be abused?  Eb has that type of conscious that has the nightmares because even though supposedly the staff protects him, he still knows what he is doing is black magic, breaks the Seven Laws, and is just plain wrong, but necessary..   But what if the staff fell into the hands of a wizard with less integrity than Eb?  Someone who doesn't feel any guilt or remorse?  He or she could do all kinds of horrible things, suffer no blow back because he or she is protected by the staff, and not even feel bad about it..  So much for the slippery slope...  That possibility is real, hence the great care in the choice of the Blackstaff and why generally it is secret as to who it is.

[morriswalters]

Just out of curiosity, is anything other than murder by magic true soul staining Black Magic?

[Bad Alias]

What Molly did. I'd put money on "definitely everything but the 6th and 7th laws, and maybe them too." The reasons the 6th and 7th might not be be soul staining black magic but still against the laws of magic is that they could literally destroy the universe.