Harry's use of Black Magic

[kbrizzle]

Demonreach
I always thought the point of keeping Demonreach around was to use the prisoners for knowledge/ to power whatever spells the Warden feels is necessary. We have some inkling that Harry is going to use this power sometime in the future.

Mantles & the Ladies
Remember that Harry still had to kill Maeve on Halloween - my understanding from what Bob says in CD is that it wouldn’t take on any other day. While Bob might’ve just been talking about the mantle & it’s effect on it’s holder over time, remember that he was told that Maeve personally had to go not the Winter Lady mantle - he still believed that Maeve was an immortal.
This raises an interesting philosophical notion about mantles - if the holder is immortal, why is a mantle needed in the first place? Hades or Odin are not mantles & they are immortal, yet we know of several changes to the Sidhe royalty.

Black magic taint
I think the issue is that almost every wizard (especially the politically active/ combat type) has some level of black magic taint (agreed with Yuillegan that there are likely nuances) - perhaps managing to keep sane while performing black magic greatly reduces the taint? Cowl, Justin & Peabody were relatively sane where as the warlocks & Kemmlerites who ooze the stuff were noticeably less so. Or perhaps those who seek knowledge/ power from beyond the Outer Gates are also told of ways to minimize or disguise any such taint?

[Yuillegan]

Morris, it might become your problem. If you bury a bunch of weapons in the desert, and a whole bunch of people (both good and bad) grab them, you can't really say not my problem when they come to your town.

Kbrizzle - Interesting idea about Demonreach. The most dangerous thing is that Harry has an army, or rather a menagerie perhaps, of monsters that he could send at anyone or free for power etc. But I don't see how it would power any spells that the Wardens use...apart from tapping into the Ley Line. But I believe Harry isn't yet able to do such a thing without being changed by it, or that is what Rashid believes. But I don't believe Demonreach was created to be a power source as its sole purpose...I don't think Merlin was that bad. But it is possible.

I think it is an assumption that Hades and Odin are immortal intrinsically. They could well be wearing mantles that allow that. We just don't know enough. I suppose that's true, Harry's mission was to kill Maeve. It wasn't to destroy the Mantle of the Winter Lady. Different tasks. But Maeve isn't intrinsically immortal any more than any other Fae. Lily could only be killed on Halloween, same with Maeve. But it was the Mantles they wore that provided that immortality. Hence why Molly is immortal now, and why Lily became so, and Maeve and Mab for that matter. Mab was mortal once, she even says it.

My guess about the differences between Gods and Sidhe Queens is probably to do with how the Queens were created and why. And what role the Gods originally had and how they came into being. The origins of the Erlking and Hecate provide some hint to this. And Vadderung hints to their purpose. Thomas outright says they existed to help mortals survive the old demons early on in humanity's history.

Your initial idea about Demonreach gave me an idea about black magic. Rashid actually implies that one day Dresden will be able to tap the extremely dark energy of Demonreach without being changed by it. Which says to me that over time a user could develop a natural resistance to black magic taint..and not necessarily need a Blackstaff. Perhaps even Rashid has experienced this. So I think your very close to the answer - it either is that like a immunity, exposure at "safe" levels makes you more resistant OR that there are ways of hiding the effects and perhaps Outsiders are linked to that. 

[Arjan]

Arjan, I think it's a lot more grey than that. I don't think it is so black and white as if you use too much you are a Warlock. The Council has definitions that don't necessarily match up with the universe's. Jim said something about that when people asked him about the Laws of Magic.

The council's laws are rough approximations which is inevitable because though black and white exist there is also a world of grays. But being a warlock does not necessarily mean you are a compulsive idiot solving all your problems with black magic without any insight in your situation.

It depends on your definition of warlock. The council would say that everyone who broke the laws is a warlock. That keeps things simple. All other definitions have grey areas build into them.

If you keep it more vague the term warlock tells you what you can expect from someone. It tells you something about his nature that can be changed using free will but so few people do.

The use of magic, not just law breaking magic, is strongly based on your nature and free willed choices to use your magic have a strong influence on your nature. The laws of magic shape the wizards believing in it. Lucio did not use magic to kill LaFortier because she could not even in the state she was in.

Black magic is said to be addictive so that has to be taken into account.

In that sense Harry is still a warlock, his barriers from using black magic are too low, he has to be carefull. But he tries not to use it and he is quite successful at that. In that sense he is not. If you trust him that is.

Grevaine was unhinged but he knew what he was doing and Cowl was actually avoiding breaking the laws if he did not think it necessary. But cowl is an outsider agent and that influence can disturb the picture. The same for Peabody.

That terminal state of crazyness the korean boy was in is not the only type of warlock and just the least dangerous one. 



 

[morriswalters]

I should give up humor.  The point, such that it was one, was in the plot to free the prisoners at Demonreach. Had they succeeded it would have set off the Banefire on Halloween. Bob's rule for immortals means that it would have permanently killed the inmates.(Including Maeve and Lily)  Yet Harry implies otherwise.

[Arjan]

I should give up humor.  The point, such that it was one, was in the plot to free the prisoners at Demonreach. Had they succeeded it would have set off the Banefire on Halloween. Bob's rule for immortals means that it would have permanently killed the inmates.(Including Maeve and Lily)  Yet Harry implies otherwise.

It would have killed the inmates but their mantles would find new hosts. The energy would find new ways to express. It would have taken them some time though to get back to their previous power and experience.

But that is why they are locked up. That buys even more time.

[morriswalters]

Why would the critters in Demonreach have mantles?  To clarify.  Odin wears any number of hats apparently, Santa, Vadderung for two.  But Odin is Odin what would be left if Odin took it off?

[Arjan]

Why would the critters in Demonreach have mantles?  To clarify.  Odin wears any number of hats apparently, Santa, Vadderung for two.  But Odin is Odin what would be left if Odin took it off?

Mantles, masks, Grace, ...

There are all kinds of critters locked up in demonreach. At least some of them will have mantles and for most of them it will be useless to kill them in the long run, maybe because humans still know about them.

And who says that if Odin drops all his masks there won't be a perfectly ordinary norwegian left called Olaf?

 

[Bad Alias]

@Yuillegan: Thomas doesn't say the gods existed to protect mortals from the old demons. He said that "in some parts of the world" "humans wouldn't have survived" without the help of those "old gods." (quotes from memory). At some point near that statement, Bob cites some Babylonian gods.

I should give up humor.  The point, such that it was one, was in the plot to free the prisoners at Demonreach. Had they succeeded it would have set off the Banefire on Halloween. Bob's rule for immortals means that it would have permanently killed the inmates.(Including Maeve and Lily)  Yet Harry implies otherwise.

If I recall correctly, while the attack was happening on Halloween, the explosion was going to happen on November 1st.

[g33k]

Have they put any new prisoners in?

I suspect it takes having an active Warden to do so.

We don't know how long the island operated with no Warden, when or who the last Warden was, or whether that Warden put anyone into the prison.

I suspect -- from that "weary British" voice Harry spoke to briefly at the beginning of Skin Game -- that it was sometime in the late 30's or early 40's:  the usage seems to have originated specifically in 1934, based on an earlier (1920's) more mild version that was just a colloquial for "depart".
https://notoneoffbritishisms.com/2018/08/30/piss-off/
 

[noblehunter]

To the second, it does what energy does, it radiates, probably flashes Lake Michigan to steam, something like that. And you may be over estimating the problem.  Morgan nuked a nagwhatever and nobody ever noticed.

That was in Nevada, right? I'm tempted to look up to see if there were any tests on potentially significant days with higher than expected yields. I know some tests were more powerful than expected but I'm pretty sure the ones I'm thinking about were in the Pacific.

[morriswalters]

I suspect it takes having an active Warden to do so.

We don't know how long the island operated with no Warden, when or who the last Warden was, or whether that Warden put anyone into the prison.

I suspect -- from that "weary British" voice Harry spoke to briefly at the beginning of Skin Game -- that it was sometime in the late 30's or early 40's:  the usage seems to have originated specifically in 1934, based on an earlier (1920's) more mild version that was just a colloquial for "depart".
https://notoneoffbritishisms.com/2018/08/30/piss-off/

I suspect it takes an active warden with testicles or ovaries made out of stainless steel given the inmates.  I'ma gonna have to go with Merlin stuck em in there and called it good.

The English guy ain't English.  To be English he would have to first be human.  And why would a human be in a jail made for old gods.  Being nemfected does not make you Superman.  Ask Maeve.

[didymos]

That was in Nevada, right? I'm tempted to look up to see if there were any tests on potentially significant days with higher than expected yields. I know some tests were more powerful than expected but I'm pretty sure the ones I'm thinking about were in the Pacific.

Yeah, Nevada:

“It was the fifties,” he said. “Started in New Mexico. It followed me to Nevada. I lured it onto a government testing site, and stepped across into the Nevernever just before the bomb went off.”

Butcher, Jim. Turn Coat (The Dresden Files, Book 11) (p. 55). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

[noblehunter]

Yeah, Nevada:

Checking Wikipedia, no indications that tests in the 50s in Nevada had higher yields than expected. A few candidates if taking out the nagloshii caused a lower than expected yield. But how big a yield would you need?

[g33k]

... The English guy ain't English.  To be English he would have to first be human ...

But he used modern(ish) language, modern(ish) accent, and a vernacular construction that originated in 1934.  So he is a relatively-recent arrival to the prison.

Unless you wish to posit that the prisoners can learn such things from an ambient gestalt or "overmind" of some sort...  But he spoke of a "stasis" (that Harry was disrupting) which doesn't sound like he would have been learning during that time.
 
I think this (mid/late 1930's (maybe 1940's (maybe post-WWII?))) is the last time there was a Warden, and this prisoner went in at that time.

[morriswalters]

Maybe he time traveled to the past and missed his bus back and borrowed a bed from Merlin with a lock that doesn't unlock until book 21 or so.  I think he's Merlin but Jim says no.  But Jim talks like Obiwan, and that may only be true in a certain way.  Just saying. WAG 10!(read that like it's math)