Peace talks excerpt indications

[Mira]

Again no clever manipulation of Harry or an exploitation of Harry’s guilt. Just a cry for help. Harry and Susan both make everything highly emotionally charged but you can blame both of them for that. Susan is probably the one feeling guilt for hiding Maggie the way she did.

Yes, and that is why even though she told the truth I still say the guilt trip extended to Harry was
sort of a manipulation.  She knew he'd be pissed because she didn't tell him, and perhaps not believe her as well. 

[Bad Alias]

Pretty far down the list on what did get her to attack...  These "moral" arguments are nice, but death
was imminent for their little girl.  Susan wasn't going to survive as she was in any case, you don't think she wouldn't have lost it once the Red King cut little Maggie's throat, then Harry and Eb died?  Harry was grasping at straws, Susan was the last one he had left.   I can buy
all the moral arguments if this was Harry's plan all along to defeat the Red King, but it wasn't.

But it didn't work, so it is irrelevant, what worked was the truth.. Getting Susan to ask the fatal question to Martin, was he behind the situation where her baby is about to get her throat cut?  When Martin confirmed that he was,  then she lost it.   Harry didn't "murder" her because he lied in the heat of the moment that she was protected by Fae magic, that wasn't even an effective argument.

So you agree that Harry lied and tried to manipulate Susan.

[Mira]

So you agree that Harry lied and tried to manipulate Susan.

  No, not in they way you'd have it..  Did he say that to try and calm her so she'd wouldn't be afraid?
Yes...  I've had people tell me to keep calm everything is going to be fine, when we both knew it damn well wouldn't be.  That is a hope, not manipulation..  It wasn't a ploy to get her killed because the knife no matter what it was made of didn't matter.. Once she attacked, she was no longer Susan, she knew that all along.

[Bad Alias]

What do you mean by "Harry was grasping at straws" and "But it didn't work, so it was irrelevant, what worked was the truth?"

What was the motivation of "grasping at straws?"

What do you call it when someone says something that isn't true, they know it isn't true, and they hope for God's eventual forgiveness before they say it?

[Arjan]

What do you mean by "Harry was grasping at straws" and "But it didn't work, so it was irrelevant, what worked was the truth?"

What was the motivation of "grasping at straws?"

What do you call it when someone says something that isn't true, they know it isn't true, and they hope for God's eventual forgiveness before they say it?

Harry’s ability to feel guilty about the wrong things and totally miss the obvious namely his suicide and especially his handling of Molly?

[Mira]

What was the motivation of "grasping at straws?"

  Huh???   Oh there was the little matter of his and Susan's daughter about to get her throat cut, and he was out of options.   There was no play left that would save her.

Harry’s ability to feel guilty about the wrong things and totally miss the obvious namely his suicide and especially his handling of Molly?

Yup.

[Arjan]

  Huh???   Oh there was the little matter of his and Susan's daughter about to get her throat cut, and he was out of options.   There was no play left that to save her.
Yup.

Because in the end what is morality about? It is about how we interact with other people. Harry and Susan had certain expectations of themselves and of each other. These expectations were quite clear from the beginning and confirmed with each interaction. Do everything and more to save their daughter. Anything possible.

Both Susan and Harry were not that concerned with their own lives. Or the planet for that matter. A lie to help each other do what had to be done? Nothing.

There was only one option open and Harry had to do everything possible to take that road including lying to Susan. Not doing so would have been the worst breach of morality. It would have been a betrayal of Susan and everything they expected of each other.

Susan did not mind. She knew her daughter was saved. That was the important thing for her.

[Mira]

Because in the end what is morality about? It is about how we interact with other people. Harry and Susan had certain expectations of themselves and of each other. These expectations were quite clear from the beginning and confirmed with each interaction. Do everything and more to save their daughter. Anything possible.

Both Susan and Harry were not that concerned with their own lives. Or the planet for that matter. A lie to help each other do what had to be done? Nothing.

There was only one option open and Harry had to do everything possible to take that road including lying to Susan. Not doing so would have been the worst breach of morality. It would have been a betrayal of Susan and everything they expected of each other.

Susan did not mind. She knew her daughter was saved. That was the important thing for her.

Exactly,  that is why I added it was like when someone tells you everything is going to be okay, when you both know it isn't.   I think Harry said it to calm her not to get her to attack.  When he asked her to think and then ask Martin a very important question as to why their daughter was about to get her throat cut, she asked it calmly, Martin answered calmly, then she lost it.. She also knew that once she lost it and turned, it was all over for her as a human, Harry's "lie" about the knife not hurting her wasn't even a remote factor in her attacking.

[Bad Alias]

Harry’s ability to feel guilty about the wrong things and totally miss the obvious namely his suicide and especially his handling of Molly?

He literally couldn't remember Molly handling his suicide at this point, so I don't see how that's relevant.

  Huh???   Oh there was the little matter of his and Susan's daughter about to get her throat cut, and he was out of options.   There was no play left that would save her.

You still haven't answered any question I've asked you. Did Harry lie to Susan or not? What was his goal in telling Susan that Martin's machete couldn't hurt her?

A lie to help each other do what had to be done? Nothing.

So you agree with me that Harry lied to Susan to get her to act? Because that's what I'm saying. Mira is saying he didn't lie to get her to act, and it didn't matter that he lied to her to get her to act because she was going to do it anyway. Stating that he didn't lie and his lie didn't matter seems a little contradictory to me.

[Mira]

You still haven't answered any question I've asked you. Did Harry lie to Susan or not? What was his goal in telling Susan that Martin's machete couldn't hurt her?

 He wanted her to calm down and think... It is like telling someone going into danger that everything is going to be okay when both of you know damn well it won't be.  Now you can call that lying if you want to, but it is not done out of malice like you are implying.

So you agree with me that Harry lied to Susan to get her to act? Because that's what I'm saying. Mira is saying he didn't lie to get her to act, and it didn't matter that he lied to her to get her to act because she was going to do it anyway. Stating that he didn't lie and his lie didn't matter seems a little contradictory to me.

Because after he said it, she didn't act.. She merely calmed down, then he asked her to think back to what happened and who was involved?  When she did that and asked Martin a very pointed question, she found out the truth, then she acted..

[Arjan]

He literally couldn't remember Molly handling his suicide at this point, so I don't see how that's relevant.

Not at that moment but apparently he did not feel guilty about it when he took that decision either. And there was the decision to take his sensitive young pupil to that place. He did not feel guilty about that either.

You still haven't answered any question I've asked you. Did Harry lie to Susan or not? What was his goal in telling Susan that Martin's machete couldn't hurt her?
So you agree with me that Harry lied to Susan to get her to act? Because that's what I'm saying. Mira is saying he didn't lie to get her to act, and it didn't matter that he lied to her to get her to act because she was going to do it anyway. Stating that he didn't lie and his lie didn't matter seems a little contradictory to me.

Everything he said at that moment had that purpose, to make her do what was necessary. I do not know if it even mattered for the eventual outcome but that was the intention. But lying is never a sin in the absolute sense, it is always contextual.

What I was saying is that Harry did what Susan wanted him to do, that by doing so he was loyal to Susan and their child. Not doing his utter best was betraying Susan and their child. That is more important.

Concentrating on that lie is acting like Harry. It is concentrating on the wrong things. His problem was not how he and Susan interacted. His problem was his let the world burn mentality, let Molly burn. A mentality he completely shared with Susan. Ghost Story explained that all.

Ghost Story is not about Uriel trying to explain to Harry that he should not lie.

And yes part of that is Lasciel’s seven words and part of that was memories removed by his own request but these words only tipped a balance at the right moment and were not responsible for all his actions. And certainly not for his let the world burn mentality, that was also before Lasciel spoke.

[Mira]

Concentrating on that lie is acting like Harry. It is concentrating on the wrong things. His problem was not how he and Susan interacted. His problem was his let the world burn mentality, let Molly burn. A mentality he completely shared with Susan. Ghost Story explained that all.

   While it is shocking that both Harry and Susan's attitude was to let the world burn, one has to also look at it from a parent's perspective.  Most parents would declare that the world could burn if it would save their child's life, thank goodness most are never in the position to have to declare that.  Also an added factor I think was the total guilt in the extreme both Harry and Susan must have felt.
1] The unprotected sex that led to their child being born. 2] All the reasons their child was in danger in the first place. 3] The repercussions from the decisions that came out of that for the future. 

As to Molly,  I still think she made her own choices to help Harry, though I doubt that either thought through what those choices would do to them.  It will be interesting in future books now that Molly is
in effect both one of Harry's bosses and in that position because she chose to help Harry suicide in the first place, whether or not she confronts him about it.  That should tell us a lot, we can point fingers, but it is both Harry and Molly that have to live with the results.

[morriswalters]

Mostly parents in the real world are never in the position of Harry and Susan.  The can't say let the world burn, nor can they fight back against the forces that can kill them.  Ask a parent in a war zone.  So conventional ethics don't really apply.

There is a character in Li'l Abner named Joe Btfsplk, this is Harry in a nutshell.  A walking jinx.  Being near him is like picking your teeth with a lightning rod in a thunderstorm.  He plans for an ogre attack but he doesn't carry condoms.  He keeps an office and advertises so his enemies know exactly how to buy the building and wire it with explosives.  He lives in a basement underneath his geriatric landlady and others, which ends with them getting burned out of their homes.  He acts without regarding the effects of his actions on others.  Ever.

It makes for great fiction but shitty ethics.

[Arjan]

   While it is shocking that both Harry and Susan's attitude was to let the world burn, one has to also look at it from a parent's perspective.  Most parents would declare that the world could burn if it would save their child's life, thank goodness most are never in the position to have to declare that.  Also an added factor I think was the total guilt in the extreme both Harry and Susan must have felt.
1] The unprotected sex that led to their child being born. 2] All the reasons their child was in danger in the first place. 3] The repercussions from the decisions that came out of that for the future. 

Most parents can at least understand this attitude under the circumstances though I doubt I really understood it before we got ours.

As to Molly,  I still think she made her own choices to help Harry, though I doubt that either thought through what those choices would do to them.  It will be interesting in future books now that Molly is
in effect both one of Harry's bosses and in that position because she chose to help Harry suicide in the first place, whether or not she confronts him about it.  That should tell us a lot, we can point fingers, but it is both Harry and Molly that have to live with the results.

But we are not talking about Molly’s responsibility, we are talking about Harry and his responsibility as Molly’s mentor, the trust Molly’s parents placed in him.

He did not think it through because he did not want to think it through.

[Mira]

But we are not talking about Molly’s responsibility, we are talking about Harry and his responsibility as Molly’s mentor, the trust Molly’s parents placed in him.

He did not think it through because he did not want to think it through.

 Not to totally excuse him, but one has to take into account Harry's mental/emotional state, plus
the fact that he had been severely injured which affected his abilty to think through what he was
asking of Molly.   I also think based on the series up until Changes and even in the books since to some extent, Harry's belief that on some level Mab is evil.  I know he saw becoming her Knight the least bad of the few very bad alternatives he had left.  The only future he saw for himself, was being forced to do what he considered to be evil by her.  Now part of that thinking might come from his own misunderstanding of the Winter Court, but considering what he had seen as far as Slate, Maeve, and even Lea and Mab, are understandable.  Molly also understood his feelings in that direction, and she didn't wish that for him either, that is why I think she agreed to help him like she did.  I also think Uriel also understood all of that, 1] because of his physical/mental/emotional condition Harry cannot be held fully responsible for what he asked of Molly. 2] She agreed, understood what she was doing, though perhaps not realizing what the guilt for it would do to her. 3] Lasciel's whispers sent all of that over the edge..