Peace talks excerpt indications

[Bad Alias]

The only solid things we have on black magic are:
1) the Laws
2) the Laws are incomplete

My understanding is that the Council's Laws of Magic are meant to be 1:1 for the Universe's Laws of Magic and the Laws of Magic cover black magic. I think the Universe's Laws of Magic are black magic, but the Council's Laws of Magic are both over and under inclusive.

Also the prohibition on time travel and messing around with Outsiders may not be black magic per se, but are considered too dangerous because they can too easily destroy the universe.

  Actually I had forgotten the part about the steel, however I also doubt that Susan believed it or
that it made any difference once she knew the truth about Martin.

I agree in that I don't think it made a difference in what Susan would have done. I do think it makes a difference in the morality of Harry's actions.

@g33k: Jim has said that Mab would leave Harry to deal with the White Council if Harry violated the Laws of Magic and came after him.

[Mira]

I agree in that I don't think it made a difference in what Susan would have done. I do think it makes a difference in the morality of Harry's actions.

  The morality of Harry's actions?  Good grief! 

[Bad Alias]

Yes. Harry clearly was trying to manipulate Susan.

[Arjan]

Yes. Harry clearly was trying to manipulate Susan.

Was not that exactly what she signed up for? Everything to save Maggie?

[Bad Alias]

I knew how angry she was. I knew how afraid she was. Her child was about to die only inches beyond her reach, and what I did to her was as good as murder.
I focused my thoughts and sent them to Susan. Susan! Think! Who knew who the baby's father was? Who could have told them?
Her lips peeled away from her teeth.
His knife can't hurt you, I thought, though I knew damned well that no faerie magic could lithely ignore the touch of steel.

Harry lied when Susan didn't immediately do what Harry wanted her to do. It was a d*ck move. I would have done the same thing in his shoes.

[Mira]

Was not that exactly what she signed up for? Everything to save Maggie?

 Exactly...  Well, Harry did ask her who could have tipped off the Red King about little Maggie? Which led her to ask Martin.

"Martin," Susan said, her voice low and very quiet.  "Did you tell them about Maggie?"
He closed his eyes, but his voice was steady. "Yes."

Then she ripped his throat out..  So I guess you could call that manipulation, but I don't think
if there was anything immoral about it, since it was the only play left that could save their child.

    I knew how angry she was. I knew how afraid she was. Her child was about to die only inches beyond her reach, and what I did to her was as good as murder.
    I focused my thoughts and sent them to Susan. Susan! Think! Who knew who the baby's father was? Who could have told them?
    Her lips peeled away from her teeth.
    His knife can't hurt you, I thought, though I knew damned well that no faerie magic could lithely ignore the touch of steel.

Harry lied when Susan didn't immediately do what Harry wanted her to do. It was a d*ck move. I would have done the same thing in his shoes.

He had already asked the fatal question, her lips had already peeled away from her teeth..  What he said about the knife made no difference..  Actually he was only repeating what Lea had more or less told her when she did her little bullet demo..  If he had said it to get her to strike, it would have been a dick move.. But he didn't.

[Arjan]

Exactly...  Well, Harry did ask her who could have tipped off the Red King about little Maggie? Which led her to ask Martin.

I mean before that. From the beginning of the book when they met and with all their interactions. She made it quite clear what she considered important and she choose to trust Harry with it.

[g33k]

The existence of thousand yard head shot, or a Predator drone and a Hellfire missile would seem to say that jurisdiction is a function of how bad you want Harry dead. Ask the CIA.

(a)  Do you want it bad enough to violate the Accords, with an unsactioned murder?

(b)  Do you want it bad enough to give personal offense to the Queen of Air and Darkness, Winter's Liege, Mab... by asserting your jurisdiction over her Knight?

I believe the WC answers would be (a) "probably not," and (b) "oh FUCKING HELL NO."

[g33k]

@g33k: Jim has said that Mab would leave Harry to deal with the White Council if Harry violated the Laws of Magic and came after him.

Huh; that's surprising to me!

But TYVM.

Still -- does the Senior Council know Mab well enough to make that call?  I doubt she would just say it to them straightforwardly... or even hint strongly enough they'd understand.

Unless she WANTED the Harry-vs-WC conflict, of course... in which case, she'd probably "hint strongly enough they'd (mis)understand" proactively, even if Harry hadn't done anything.

[Arjan]

Huh; that's surprising to me!

But TYVM.

Still -- does the Senior Council know Mab well enough to make that call?  I doubt she would just say it to them straightforwardly... or even hint strongly enough they'd understand.

Unless she WANTED the Harry-vs-WC conflict, of course... in which case, she'd probably "hint strongly enough they'd (mis)understand" proactively, even if Harry hadn't done anything.

Mab does not protect you from your own stupidity and certainly not if you break your obligations to other people.

Harry is a white council member and these are his laws. Mab does not want Harry to break them. 

But if the white council piles up on Harry without a good reason that would probably be different.

[Arjan]

(b)  Do you want it bad enough to give personal offense to the Queen of Air and Darkness, Winter's Liege, Mab... by asserting your jurisdiction over her Knight?

Yes, Mab completely accepts that Harry has obligations to other people besides herself. That is why she send Lea to teach Molly for example and Harry's obligations to the council are not different. She could have a different understanding of those obligations than Harry though.

Harry just needs to meet all his obligations.

[Mira]

Yes, Mab completely accepts that Harry has obligations to other people besides herself. That is why she send Lea to teach Molly for example and Harry's obligations to the council are not different. She could have a different understanding of those obligations than Harry though.

Harry just needs to meet all his obligations.

  The White Council and Mab understand each other very well, they also respect each other's power and place in the universe.   To both of them Harry is a valuable chess piece to be moved or sacrificed
as needed.  Only problem for either of them is Harry doesn't always act like a chess piece, he has a mind of his own, or at least thinks he does.

[Mira]

I mean before that. From the beginning of the book when they met and with all their interactions. She made it quite clear what she considered important and she choose to trust Harry with it.

That too, you might say that Susan was manipulating Harry, because after six years she finally decided to tell him about little Maggie.  The only reason she did that was little Maggie was in mortal danger and the only person who could or would help is Harry, she needed him.. 

[Arjan]

That too, you might say that Susan was manipulating Harry, because after six years she finally decided to tell him about little Maggie.  The only reason she did that was little Maggie was in mortal danger and the only person who could or would help is Harry, she needed him..

And Harry did not betray her in any way, he did exact what she wanted from him and now he needs to be a father for Maggie. That is what Susan would have wanted him to be as well.

[Mira]

And Harry did not betray her in any way, he did exact what she wanted from him and now he needs to be a father for Maggie. That is what Susan would have wanted him to be as well.

Yup, I'd call that successful manipulation on Susan's part.