Author Topic: Peace talks excerpt indications  (Read 54801 times)

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #150 on: April 11, 2020, 05:28:05 PM »
I once posted that Harry wasn't really human since a human life span is much shorter.  Nobody liked that.

And it seems that people are implying that you can use the product of evil to do good and that it makes it OK.  If you want a good look at how that plays out in the world you should look at the results of human experimentation in WW2. 

The thing is that the ritual that was used to kill the Reds was evil, that it blew up in their face doesn't change  that.  And Harry deliberately pushed Susan over the edge knowing what she would do.  She didn't give her consent though she might have if Harry had asked.  But Harry didn't ask.  It makes for good drama but poor ethics.

Now look at the parallelism between what the Fallen did to Harry and what Harry did to Susan.  I believe this is intentional on Jim's part.

Offline Avernite

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #151 on: April 11, 2020, 06:58:04 PM »
I once posted that Harry wasn't really human since a human life span is much shorter.  Nobody liked that.

And it seems that people are implying that you can use the product of evil to do good and that it makes it OK.  If you want a good look at how that plays out in the world you should look at the results of human experimentation in WW2. 

The thing is that the ritual that was used to kill the Reds was evil, that it blew up in their face doesn't change  that.  And Harry deliberately pushed Susan over the edge knowing what she would do.  She didn't give her consent though she might have if Harry had asked.  But Harry didn't ask.  It makes for good drama but poor ethics.

Now look at the parallelism between what the Fallen did to Harry and what Harry did to Susan.  I believe this is intentional on Jim's part.

Harry killed a RCV with a knife. He admittedly tricked Susan into being that RCV, which is no doubt a stain on his soul (though he saved her daughter in the process so not too sure how thick a stain), but that's what he did.

He did not deploy black magic; the magic was externalized into a ritual, the human sacrifice part of it was done by the Court, and turned back upon them in karmic justice. Harry did not engage in any black magic.

And his hand in the magic destroyed a whole nation of monsters, so even if any splashed on him, it should be the cleansing rage of heaven, not the blackening fury of hell. An Archangel had, after all, pronounced Judgment Almighty on the Red Court, and the Almighty does not shy away from mass destruction if it's warranted.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #152 on: April 11, 2020, 07:11:05 PM »
Harry killed a RCV with a knife. He admittedly tricked Susan into being that RCV, which is no doubt a stain on his soul (though he saved her daughter in the process so not too sure how thick a stain), but that's what he did.

He did not deploy black magic; the magic was externalized into a ritual, the human sacrifice part of it was done by the Court, and turned back upon them in karmic justice. Harry did not engage in any black magic.

And his hand in the magic destroyed a whole nation of monsters, so even if any splashed on him, it should be the cleansing rage of heaven, not the blackening fury of hell. An Archangel had, after all, pronounced Judgment Almighty on the Red Court, and the Almighty does not shy away from mass destruction if it's warranted.
Ik is OK because an archangle said it was OK?
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #153 on: April 11, 2020, 07:17:08 PM »
I once posted that Harry wasn't really human since a human life span is much shorter.  Nobody liked that.
Biologically they are all human. They breed with humans and produce fertile offspring. There is no clear definition in the dresdenverse about who is human an who is not.

Being human in the dresdenverse is more about
  • Do you self identify as a human?
  • Do other humans accept you as a human?
  • Do other non humans identify you as a human?

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And it seems that people are implying that you can use the product of evil to do good and that it makes it OK. 
Apart from Harry triggering Susan, and maybe even that, I see this as a big trolley problem except that on one track are only monsters. It would be different if Harry actually could have stopped it but that was not possible.

Of course that is if you exclude magic from the equation. If you take that ib=nto account the big thing is to what extend Harry actually touched that power. We have no idea but it might have been not that different from what Harry tried to do in proven guilty, sending a summoned creature back to the summoner which was standard council procedure.
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If you want a good look at how that plays out in the world you should look at the results of human experimentation in WW2. 

The thing is that the ritual that was used to kill the Reds was evil, that it blew up in their face doesn't change  that.  And Harry deliberately pushed Susan over the edge knowing what she would do.  She didn't give her consent though she might have if Harry had asked.  But Harry didn't ask.  It makes for good drama but poor ethics.

Now look at the parallelism between what the Fallen did to Harry and what Harry did to Susan.  I believe this is intentional on Jim's part.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 07:30:26 PM by Arjan »
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #154 on: April 11, 2020, 07:32:35 PM »
Harry killed a RCV with a knife. He admittedly tricked Susan into being that RCV, which is no doubt a stain on his soul (though he saved her daughter in the process so not too sure how thick a stain), but that's what he did.

He did not deploy black magic; the magic was externalized into a ritual, the human sacrifice part of it was done by the Court, and turned back upon them in karmic justice. Harry did not engage in any black magic.

And his hand in the magic destroyed a whole nation of monsters, so even if any splashed on him, it should be the cleansing rage of heaven, not the blackening fury of hell. An Archangel had, after all, pronounced Judgment Almighty on the Red Court, and the Almighty does not shy away from mass destruction if it's warranted.
The Archangel took he sweet time getting his vengeance on. He was a thousand years slow.  And I never said anything about a stain.  I said the ritual was evil.  And I asked if using an evil tool was in itself evil.  And the problem with Susan isn't that he killed her, it's that he used her without giving her a chance to  choose, or to use that bogey man that everyone loves so much here, he denied her the Choice.


Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #155 on: April 11, 2020, 08:30:43 PM »
In Changes, Harry was accepting a standing offer.
In Changes, I wouldn't even say Harry was making a counter-offer. He comes to Mab and asks for power. Mab says Harry knows her price. The price is to be her Knight. Harry has "a" condition that she give him power and knowledge enough to save his daughter.

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Don't make her any offers. Don't accept any, not even in passing, not even anything that seems harmless or that could only be construed through context.

Offline Dina

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #156 on: April 11, 2020, 08:48:27 PM »
I agree
Missing you, Md 

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Offline g33k

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #157 on: April 11, 2020, 10:52:40 PM »
Harry killed a RCV with a knife. He admittedly tricked Susan into being that RCV, which is no doubt a stain on his soul ...

He tricked Susan into being no-longer-human ... and thus eligible to be killed without it "counting" as murder ?   Sorry, no.

In fact, HELL no.

Morally, this is identical to killing her before she had turned; as others have said, he took away her Choice.  He chose on her behalf, and then murdered her for it.

It's also worth noting it as a classic "warcrimes" method:  first, you dehumanize them; then you can feel OK about murdering them.

===

Now, you may be able to argue a "greater good" argument.

You may be able to argue "time of war, tragedies happen."

You may be able to argue that "It's what Susan would have chosen, if Harry had been able to lay it out for her."  This is the most tempting argument of all:  Susan would have wanted it.

None of which alter the fundamental fact that Susan entered that temple with a range of choices, but then Harry took all her choices from her... and then he killed her, for reacting in the only way she could.
 

Offline CrusherJen

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #158 on: April 12, 2020, 12:33:37 AM »
I'm not saying it wasn't wrong, or terrible-- it was. Harry did make the choice to play it out that way. And yes, I think he definitely was stained by triggering the black magic spell, on top of the psychological damage he took in doing what he did.

But it's not like Harry had a ton of options at that point, either. He saw the shot, and he took it-- knowing very well how horrible it was. That should have consequences.

I'm not saying it's completely justified... but it is understandable, for lack of a better word.
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Offline g33k

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #159 on: April 12, 2020, 01:29:07 AM »
I'm not saying it wasn't wrong, or terrible-- it was. Harry did make the choice to play it out that way. And yes, I think he definitely was stained by triggering the black magic spell, on top of the psychological damage he took in doing what he did.

But it's not like Harry had a ton of options at that point, either. He saw the shot, and he took it-- knowing very well how horrible it was. That should have consequences.

I'm not saying it's completely justified... but it is understandable, for lack of a better word.

Complete agreement.

I'm not calling Harry a "cold blooded murderer" here.

But I'm not willing to let that word -- murder -- get swept under the rug, either.  It's more apt than any other word I know in English.

In all the Dresden Files to date, this is the most singularly evil act that Harry has performed (rivaled only by his pushing Molly to be the agent of his suicide (both, we note, happening in the same novel)).
 

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #160 on: April 12, 2020, 02:42:31 AM »
I'd give him a diminished capacity defense.  And anyway it sets up Ghost Story.  Harry's forced to face the consequences of his actions, and to do it more or less the way his allies do, without all the boom and bang.  And as I have pointed out elsewhere Harry is coming to see that when he moves he breaks things and he no longer has the option of hiding in his basement.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #161 on: April 12, 2020, 02:47:54 AM »
Depends on how you look at it. From a utilitarian point of view sacrificing Susan on that altar, even by triggering her to kill Martin, was the only right thing to do. It saved countless people from horrible fates and Harry could reasonably assume that it was what Susan wanted. It is also what had to be done to defend reality against the outsiders, at that point in time the vampires were their tools.

Similar for all the members of st Giles. Harry did not ask their formal agreement but their whole life after infection expressed their will, they did make their choices, they did make their wishes clear just like Susan did.

In Ghost Story we see that Harry’s suicide and handling of Molly is seen as the real crime and I tend to agree and not just because that seems to be what the archangels think.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 03:10:07 AM by Arjan »
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Offline Avernite

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #162 on: April 12, 2020, 07:13:22 AM »
He tricked Susan into being no-longer-human ... and thus eligible to be killed without it "counting" as murder ?   Sorry, no.

In fact, HELL no.

Morally, this is identical to killing her before she had turned; as others have said, he took away her Choice.  He chose on her behalf, and then murdered her for it.

It's also worth noting it as a classic "warcrimes" method:  first, you dehumanize them; then you can feel OK about murdering them.

===

Now, you may be able to argue a "greater good" argument.

You may be able to argue "time of war, tragedies happen."

You may be able to argue that "It's what Susan would have chosen, if Harry had been able to lay it out for her."  This is the most tempting argument of all:  Susan would have wanted it.

None of which alter the fundamental fact that Susan entered that temple with a range of choices, but then Harry took all her choices from her... and then he killed her, for reacting in the only way she could.
I obviously disagree.

Susan came into that temple half a human. Ready to lay down her remaining life to save her daughter, if it should come to that. Her Choice was back in Chicago, when she, like all the rest, Chose to join Hrry on a crazed adventure that should be rights have ended with all of them dead.

Sure, she could have later Chosen to back out, hence why Harry did trick her when he saw how she could make it work on the Choice she pre-arranged for in Chicago (or even before Changes started, though I think she still hoped to live then).

And Harry tricked her with Truth. Martin HAD sold Maggie out. And in the Mab-Harry scene where Mab shows Maggie, Jim Butcher (through Harry) indicates that makes the trickery not so bad - if Susan thought killing Martin was worth her humanity, that is her Choice. And that Harry sees giving her that Choice allows them to save Maggie, well... that Choiice Susan made, too, if only after the first one, where Harry clearly saw both consequences before giving the 'lose humanity to kill the traitor' Choice.

Offline Mira

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #163 on: April 12, 2020, 11:35:02 AM »
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He tricked Susan into being no-longer-human ... and thus eligible to be killed without it "counting" as murder ?   Sorry, no.

   Harry didn't trick Susan into turning, he told her no lies.  What he did was reveal to her that Martin was the cause of her daughter being about to be sacrificed by the Red King, knowing it would
enrage her into killing him and turning.  It was the only play he had left to save their daughter.  If
she could have held it together once she found out, she wouldn't have turned,  Maggie, Harry, and Eb would have died, then most likely she would have turned anyway.. The Red King would have insisted upon it. 
Quote
In Ghost Story we see that Harry’s suicide and handling of Molly is seen as the real crime and I tend to agree and not just because that seems to be what the archangels think.

However no matter how much love she feels for Harry, Molly was an adult at the time.  The religion she was raised in, teaches that suicide is a sin, to aid it would be a sin.  She knew the consequences of assisting Harry's suicide for herself spiritually as well as him.  She wasn't forced by Harry to make her decision, she may have underestimated the consequences of what the guilt would do to herself, but it was still her choice to aid him.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« Reply #164 on: April 12, 2020, 12:52:46 PM »
I am not arguing whether it was moral or not to kill Susan.

I am arguing that the ritual that Harry used was a evil ritual, as Morris said, regardless of how it was used.

I am arguing that using dark magic, even for a seemingly good result, still leaves a taint. A magic taint.

I am arguing that there are consequences beyond the Laws of Magic.

Mira, I would argue that while some men Fall from grace, some are pushed. Molly is in the latter category.

Arjan, we could have a debate about the ethics of whether killing a small nation of beings that murder, torture, terrify and feed of humanity. The problem with utilitarian ethics, is that it still sucks for the few it doesn't benefit. Which flies in the face of the Christian belief that EVERY soul is worth saving, every person's life is important. Which lines up with the Dresden Files - Harry started a war over one soul, one life (Susan) knowing that it would cause terrible destruction. You might argue his choice was foolish (although I suspect Mirror Mirror will answer that). You might argue that he didn't fully appreciate the consequences of his actions (as the White Council did). But the answer Jim leans into, if you read closely, is that it was the right decision and that war was always coming. There is a recurring theme that one soul is always worth saving and fighting for. But I will leave it at that.

G33k, you are essentially right. Harry practically committed war crimes (although you could argue that it is impossible against non-humans, as war crimes only apply to humans - but as Jim points out that is hardly fair).

Morris - you've hit the nail on the head. Agreed. And yes, parallels between the Fallen's treatment of Harry and Harry's treatment of Susan. I would go further and say Harry has been moulded for his whole life to do something just like that, even if it benefits the "good" guys. Harry is human enough, for the purposes of the book. He isn't totally (wizards are called freaks by the White Court) but he is mostly enough for the supernatural world. Only Jim knows where the line is. He certainly isn't by our standards, but as we don't have magic here (probably) there isn't much point in discussing it.

Avernite - you are insisting he didn't engage in black magic, but you're basing that on your own opinion. You have failed to provide any evidence that it wasn't black magic, other than assertions. Considering how little information on black magic we have, that is understandable. But you need to do better and find some references to what does or doesn't qualify to support your argument. As for the whole Archangel supporting his actions - 1) that's not been confirmed, but even if it was an archangel speaking through Murphy as others have pointed out that doesn't necessarily mean it was Right. Jim's whole point in the quote I provided is that Right and Wrong aren't necessarily owned or defined by the "good" or "bad" guys. A recurring motif is that there are lots of elements of grey (which even Harry isn't sure of) in morality. You might disagree, but that's how the books are written. I would also argue that just because the Almighty (TWG) thinks its okay to do mass destruction, genocide is genocide and many people might have a small issue with it. Including Dresden.

For those that argue that the half-vamps are not human enough, may I remind you that Thomas is mortal enough to be Winter Knight. Think less like the White Council and think more cosmically about Choice and things will get clearer.

Mira - I never said someone steps in front of the metaphorical car. Legally you'd still probably get a charge (although a number of factors such as what country you are in, how powerful your case is, your lawyers versus the families etc would affect that result and the severity of it). If you don't drive the car, no dead person. Harry doesn't use the ritual, no dead half-vamps. The ritual is black magic, built with black magic. Hell it is even built with a bloody dark ley line. Some of you need to re-read Changes.

CrusherJen - probably right about how much taint comes is partially to do with intention as much as result, and Susan's own Choice.

AClone - Have you read the Dresden Files?! The White Council exist in the story mostly to make Harry's life harder! If they can prosecute him for something, they probably will. It's all they do for most of the series. Just because Harry helped with one problem (which created arguably a greater problem) doesn't mean he'll get any thanks. Which is essentially the feel of Peace Talks anyway, more of Harry's choices coming back to haunt him.



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