Peace talks excerpt indications

[Arjan]

However no matter how much love she feels for Harry, Molly was an adult at the time.  The religion she was raised in, teaches that suicide is a sin, to aid it would be a sin.  She knew the consequences of assisting Harry's suicide for herself spiritually as well as him.  She wasn't forced by Harry to make her decision, she may have underestimated the consequences of what the guilt would do to herself, but it was still her choice to aid him.

Molly was an adult but she was also Harry’s pupil. Harry was in a position of authority and trust and he abused that position. It was even worse than in a normal master pupil relationship because of the nature of the white council’s apprenticeship and the doom that was hanging over her. It was Harry’s responsibility to teach her and to prepare her for the world and this was not the way of doing it.

And age of consent might make a legal difference but if you know that you are abusing trust it is still wrong whatever age you are.

[Arjan]

I am not arguing whether it was moral or not to kill Susan.

I am arguing that the ritual that Harry used was a evil ritual, as Morris said, regardless of how it was used.

I am arguing that using dark magic, even for a seemingly good result, still leaves a taint. A magic taint.

I am arguing that there are consequences beyond the Laws of Magic.

Mira, I would argue that while some men Fall from grace, some are pushed. Molly is in the latter category.

Arjan, we could have a debate about the ethics of whether killing a small nation of beings that murder, torture, terrify and feed of humanity. The problem with utilitarian ethics, is that it still sucks for the few it doesn't benefit.

With Trolley problems you do not have those argument. The only question is what is worse. Pulling the lever and let the train go to the other track of doing nothing and let it continue as planned by the red court.

If you read Harry’s discussion with Michael in skin game it is clear that Harry took the right decision in this according to Jim, Michael etc.

Which flies in the face of the Christian belief that EVERY soul is worth saving, every person's life is important. Which lines up with the Dresden Files - Harry started a war over one soul, one life (Susan) knowing that it would cause terrible destruction. You might argue his choice was foolish (although I suspect Mirror Mirror will answer that). You might argue that he didn't fully appreciate the consequences of his actions (as the White Council did). But the answer Jim leans into, if you read closely, is that it was the right decision and that war was always coming. There is a recurring theme that one soul is always worth saving and fighting for. But I will leave it at that.

Because the choice between Susan and Peace was a false choice. Peace was never on the table anyway.

G33k, you are essentially right. Harry practically committed war crimes (although you could argue that it is impossible against non-humans, as war crimes only apply to humans - but as Jim points out that is hardly fair).

Morris - you've hit the nail on the head. Agreed. And yes, parallels between the Fallen's treatment of Harry and Harry's treatment of Susan. I would go further and say Harry has been moulded for his whole life to do something just like that, even if it benefits the "good" guys. Harry is human enough, for the purposes of the book. He isn't totally (wizards are called freaks by the White Court) but he is mostly enough for the supernatural world. Only Jim knows where the line is. He certainly isn't by our standards, but as we don't have magic here (probably) there isn't much point in discussing it.

Avernite - you are insisting he didn't engage in black magic, but you're basing that on your own opinion. You have failed to provide any evidence that it wasn't black magic, other than assertions. Considering how little information on black magic we have, that is understandable. But you need to do better and find some references to what does or doesn't qualify to support your argument. As for the whole Archangel supporting his actions - 1) that's not been confirmed, but even if it was an archangel speaking through Murphy as others have pointed out that doesn't necessarily mean it was Right. Jim's whole point in the quote I provided is that Right and Wrong aren't necessarily owned or defined by the "good" or "bad" guys. A recurring motif is that there are lots of elements of grey (which even Harry isn't sure of) in morality. You might disagree, but that's how the books are written. I would also argue that just because the Almighty (TWG) thinks its okay to do mass destruction, genocide is genocide and many people might have a small issue with it. Including Dresden.

For those that argue that the half-vamps are not human enough, may I remind you that Thomas is mortal enough to be Winter Knight. Think less like the White Council and think more cosmically about Choice and things will get clearer.

Mira - I never said someone steps in front of the metaphorical car. Legally you'd still probably get a charge (although a number of factors such as what country you are in, how powerful your case is, your lawyers versus the families etc would affect that result and the severity of it). If you don't drive the car, no dead person. Harry doesn't use the ritual, no dead half-vamps. The ritual is black magic, built with black magic. Hell it is even built with a bloody dark ley line. Some of you need to re-read Changes.

CrusherJen - probably right about how much taint comes is partially to do with intention as much as result, and Susan's own Choice.

AClone - Have you read the Dresden Files?! The White Council exist in the story mostly to make Harry's life harder! If they can prosecute him for something, they probably will. It's all they do for most of the series. Just because Harry helped with one problem (which created arguably a greater problem) doesn't mean he'll get any thanks. Which is essentially the feel of Peace Talks anyway, more of Harry's choices coming back to haunt him.

[Mira]

Mira - I never said someone steps in front of the metaphorical car. Legally you'd still probably get a charge (although a number of factors such as what country you are in, how powerful your case is, your lawyers versus the families etc would affect that result and the severity of it). If you don't drive the car, no dead person. Harry doesn't use the ritual, no dead half-vamps. The ritual is black magic, built with black magic. Hell it is even built with a bloody dark ley line. Some of you need to re-read Changes.

  There is the case of deliberate suicide,  thus the person driving the car is the victim because he or she is being used by the person wanting to die.  It happens also on the road, a car deliberately swerves in front of your car, suicide by cop is also common.   

Molly was an adult but she was also Harry’s pupil. Harry was in a position of authority and trust and he abused that position. It was even worse than in a normal master pupil relationship because of the nature of the white council’s apprenticeship and the doom that was hanging over her. It was Harry’s responsibility to teach her and to prepare her for the world and this was not the way of doing it.

I don't argue with that point, however before she became Harry's pupil, she was the child of Charity and Michael Carpenter for eighteen years.  The whole of that time she was raised in the Catholic Church, she went to Catholic schools, she attended Catechism, she participated in her first Communion, she was Confirmed in the Church....  Though she did rebel against her parents and their values when she went off the rails towards becoming a warlock, I doubt that they could be totally blocked out.  Being Harry's apprentice didn't brain wash her and turn her against all of those years of teaching, let alone her parents living what the Church teaches.

Harry in his desperation was wrong to ask her to help him, but it is a mistake to think that Molly wasn't aware of what she was doing or what it meant, she did.  If she wasn't aware, she wouldn't have suffered any guilt, why would she?  At the time she thought she was helping to save Harry from Mab by assisting his suicide.  However none of that could overcome eighteen years of religious teaching against it, making her then second guess her decision.. 

 

[Arjan]

The problem with non utilitarian ethics is that it can lead to choices that bring far more misery than necessary. But at the End most people don’t rely on those moral reasonings but they rely on their moral instincts and the best thing these frameworks do is to make you more aware of your decision making.

My instincts tell me that those half vampires fought their whole life against the infection and made it pretty clear by their words and actions what they wanted.

You don’t need a written declaration for everything.

[morriswalters]

Assisted suicide isn't really the point.  In some cultures it is perfectly acceptable.  The point is what he did to get there.  He had Molly break one of the seven laws.  Again, and Jim does this over and over again, this is just why he got so angry at Ebeneezer.  He was angry because Eb didn't practice what he preached. 

This comes up over and over again in Turn Coat.  You don't do mind magic.  It twists you and the Council will kill you for it.  I'd quote Turn Coat but everybody here knows it at least as well as I do.  Harry doesn't practice what he preaches.

[Arjan]

Assisted suicide isn't really the point.  In some cultures it is perfectly acceptable.  The point is what he did to get there.  He had Molly break one of the seven laws. 

No he did not. You can do everything in someone elses mind if you are invited. Otherwise you can not check for mindmagic and try to help healing people as for example the gatekeeper did after turn coat and training your apprentice in mental defence would also be impossible.

With invitation it is not an invasion anymore. This is completely disconnected from the moral implications of course but that is the law.

[Bad Alias]

And Harry tricked her with Truth.

   Harry didn't trick Susan into turning, he told her no lies. 

Harry lied to Susan when he told her Martin's steel machete couldn't harm her.

[1]Hell it is even built with a bloody dark ley line. Some of you need to re-read Changes.

[2]CrusherJen - probably right about how much taint comes is partially to do with intention as much as result, and Susan's own Choice.

1. I don't recall the dark ley line. Maybe I need to re-read Changes! 2. I don't think so (though I'm a little confused by your phrasing). As indicated by your WoJ quote, Jim thinks results are more important than intent. The quote could be read to mean intent is irrelevant to the morality of the action. I think intent is highly relevant, but I'm not sure Jim does. Link your post with the WoJ:

I think Susan and most of the Fellowship of St. Giles would have sacrificed themselves to destroy the Red Court. I think Susan would have done exactly what she did knowing full well what the consequences were. I think she chose to kill Martin even if it meant turning. She wasn't planning on wrestling with him. She went straight for the kill by biting his neck.

All that said, Harry lied to Susan, so we'll never know for sure. That was wrong. Was it the least wrong option? Maybe. I don't think he needed to lie to her. I don't know if he had time to explain the plan to her, but he didn't have to lie. He chose to manipulate Susan instead of letting her chose for herself. That seems wrong to me within the moral framework setup in the Dresden Files.

I do think the worst thing Harry did in Changes was what he did to Molly. I would cut him some slack because of the whole fallen angel thing.

I've always gotten the feeling that a non-magical act that has magical results doesn't result in black magic taint. Harry doesn't turn Helen Beckitt in and it's not made out to be that big of a deal that he didn't. I don't really have anything specific that makes me think that, but it's just the impression I've always gotten.

The morality of an act doesn't have much to do with whether or not it's black magic.

[Avernite]

Avernite - you are insisting he didn't engage in black magic, but you're basing that on your own opinion. You have failed to provide any evidence that it wasn't black magic, other than assertions. Considering how little information on black magic we have, that is understandable. But you need to do better and find some references to what does or doesn't qualify to support your argument.

The only solid things we have on black magic are:
1) the Laws
2) the Laws are incomplete

As such, I feel I am entirely within rights to oppose the positive claim (it was dark magic) with a negative (no it wasn't).

Now, I can add attempts to tear down the additional positive arguments why it IS black magic, which is what I've been doing. But there really isn't much 'evidence' to go on. We know Harry didn't violate the Law. We know the spell itself didn't obviously violate the Law, since it only killed vampires, not humans (though see the end of the post). So the only reason it could be Black Magic are:
- Killing Vampires is Black Magic, and a hole in the Laws (I see no indications of that in all the Council's war - we know Black Magic leaves a stain, and most every Warden has killed Vampires with magic, so it would have gotten noticeable)
- Using anything powered by human life, or just another's life, is Black Magic (which would make a Death Curse potential Black Magic, but at that point, who's counting?)

Now this last point, I cannot easily counter; we've seen (to jump series) the Alera books do consider magic-from-another's-life evil, but in the Dresden files every other use of human sacrifice I remember has been for obvious evil magic.

As for the whole Archangel supporting his actions - 1) that's not been confirmed, but even if it was an archangel speaking through Murphy as others have pointed out that doesn't necessarily mean it was Right. Jim's whole point in the quote I provided is that Right and Wrong aren't necessarily owned or defined by the "good" or "bad" guys. A recurring motif is that there are lots of elements of grey (which even Harry isn't sure of) in morality. You might disagree, but that's how the books are written. I would also argue that just because the Almighty (TWG) thinks its okay to do mass destruction, genocide is genocide and many people might have a small issue with it. Including Dresden.

There are good and bad guys who have some bad and some good still in them, respectively (though I can't find back which post contains the quote you refer to). There are also literal VPs of creation who Fall if they do evil. So if the VP of creation says it's Good, you've got a good path there. In a world where there IS a final Judge of Good and Evil, said Judge can make absolute judgements.

Now, indeed, the said presumed (but not proven, and it matters) Archangel didn't say 'dear Red Court, you must all die, but through your own method', so it is possible that this was the wrong way to annihilate the Red Court, but it seemed pretty obvious mass destruction of the Red Court was sanctioned by the arbiters of Good and Evil.

For those that argue that the half-vamps are not human enough, may I remind you that Thomas is mortal enough to be Winter Knight. Think less like the White Council and think more cosmically about Choice and things will get clearer.

I would say rather Harry didn't murder them. He took away the crutch that extended their life unnaturally. That it didn't work the way Wizard-extension does is a clear enough sign that the human was essentially dying very long. Kind of like how ending ICU treatment on a terminal patient, while the immediate cause of their dying then and there, isn't a killing (while killing a healthy 90-year old, the wizard in comparison, is a killing).

[Mira]

Harry lied to Susan when he told her Martin's steel machete couldn't harm her.

   The point is when he revealed to her that it was Martin who betrayed her, which led to her daughter  being on the chopping block, she went ape shit and tore his throat out, leading to her turning.. So he lied about the steel knife, though she did some really dumb things that got her in the fix she was in, Susan wasn't a stupid woman..  I doubt she took him seriously, even if she did, her object once she realized what Martin was about, was to rip his throat out.  Apparently Martin wasn't very good with his machete, because she succeeded, so it is a bit of a moot point.

[Arjan]

   Harry didn't trick Susan into turning, he told her no lies. 

I think Harry did the right thing but I am not a Sidhe, in my book a deliberately incomplete truth is still a lie.

On second thought the Sidhe agree with me. They never say they can not lie as far as I can remember, the say they can not speak untruth.

[Mira]

I think Harry did the right thing but I am not a Sidhe, in my book a deliberately incomplete truth is still a lie.

On second thought the Sidhe agree with me. They never say they can not lie as far as I can remember, the say they can not speak untruth.

  Actually I had forgotten the part about the steel, however I also doubt that Susan believed it or
that it made any difference once she knew the truth about Martin.

[Arjan]

  Actually I had forgotten the part about the steel, however I also doubt that Susan believed it or
that it made any difference once she knew the truth about Martin.

We see everything from Harry's point of view and he is big on taking blame but as soon as Susan understood what Harry's intention was she was totally into it, she just did not have the power to do it herself.

So the question is when did Susan understood what her only chance to save her daughter was and I think that that was much earlier than Harry understood that Susan understood.

Maybe she made herself snap.

 

[Mira]

We see everything from Harry's point of view and he is big on taking blame but as soon as Susan understood what Harry's intention was she was totally into it, she just did not have the power to do it herself.

So the question is when did Susan understood what her only chance to save her daughter was and I think that that was much earlier than Harry understood that Susan understood.

Maybe she made herself snap.

 

I  just checked and we have to go back a bit further, when they began the trip.  It was Lea that dressed them, it was she who implied that Susan's cloak and outfit would protect her.  Harry remarked at the time that he'd prefer Kevlar, then Lea actually shot a bullet at Susan and she was safe.  Harry repeated it to Susan during the crisis, though he, himself didn't fully believe it.  Does
that make it a lie?  Just because he didn't believe it, it doesn't make it so, based on the earlier evidence, he could have been totally wrong.   It could also be that Lea herself was wrong in thinking
her set up would protect Susan because she didn't account for iron and steel weapons.   Or back to why one should never bargain with the Fae, they cannot lie but they are also selective as to the what the full truth is.

So the question is when did Susan understood what her only chance to save her daughter was and I think that that was much earlier than Harry understood that Susan understood.

Maybe she made herself snap.

I think she did make herself snap for a number of reasons.  However just taking rational reasoning out of the equation, let's consider the emotional gut response.  Susan had depended on Martin for a number of years, he was her mentor in a lot of ways, he friend, her confidant, to find out he was playing both sides of the street?  That is a gut punch for anyone to absorb and sets off an immediate emotional response or snapping.  That is the human response, but in the half turned that sets up the vamp take over and the kill.   I don't think neither she nor Harry made her snap, the information, the situation made it happen.

[g33k]

... The White Council exist in the story mostly to make Harry's life harder! If they can prosecute him for something, they probably will. It's all they do for most of the series ...

I think that used to be the case.

Now, I think they're just hoping that Someone Else will take care of Harry for them (hopefully without involving the White Council); as Marcone keeps saying, Harry will get himself killed.

It's also not clear to me whether the WC can claim jurisdiction, so long as Harry is Winter Knight:  the Unseelie Accords probably grant Harry immunity from Council law, so long as Sir Harry doesn't offer offense under the Accords themselves (which take no account of "mere" wizard-law).

But recall:

Dresden is the wizard who -- when Kemmlerite necromancers took Captain Luccio and Donald Morgan out of the picture -- summoned back an unimaginably-ancient zombie dinosaur and took down the entire cabal of necromancers with only one junior-Warden for backup.

Dresden is the wizard who -- when Peabody betrayed them all, when Peabody disabled the ENTIRE detail of Wardens running security, when Peabody murdered ultimate-hardcase-Warden Donald Morgan, when Peabody escaped the ENTIRE Senior Council) -- chased Peabody down and killed him.

Then there's the Red Court; they were (IIRC) something like six thousand years old.  The White Council maybe 1500, and had spent most of their coexistence in a chafing-uncomfortably border-warfare state.

After a few years with a hate-on between the Ramps and Harry Dresden -- including some direct moves against him, which all fail -- Dresden killed them ALL.

He's also notched a couple of Faerie Queens, assaulted Arctis Tor, and generally punched way WAY above his supposed weight-class (for a relatively-junior wizard).

At this point, the White Council is probably pretty damned averse to the idea of "prosecuting" (or doing anything else to "threaten") Harry Dresden... for any reason whatsoever.  Threats to Harry Dresden -- all magnitudes and scopes of threat -- wind up utterly destroyed.

Oh, sure -- Langtry remains a foe; but the WC as a whole?  I don't think they'd be at all happy to see Dresden become a foe of the WCofWizards.

Better to let someone ELSE take him down; at the rate he's going, it's looking more and more likely!

[morriswalters]

It's also not clear to me whether the WC can claim jurisdiction

The existence of thousand yard head shot, or a Predator drone and a Hellfire missile would seem to say that jurisdiction is a function of how bad you want Harry dead. Ask the CIA.