Peace Talks snippet on Entertainment Weekly

[toodeep]

I doubt it, remember that is why he "borrowed back" Bob, because he needed him to break down
what Alfred was trying to explain to him.   If being warden on the island meant he'd just know, he wouldn't have had to do that.

That is a very strong argument.  I had never thought of it before, and it really does weaken the idea of Intellectus if it can't provide complex information.  It seems like Harry should have "just known" how the island was created.  It would make for an amazing amount of knowledge about magic available to Harry when he is on the island, though it would be interesting because he wouldn't necessarily know the nuts and bolts "whys" of why things were done or how they worked because he would "just know" the results that got there.

Honestly, if he really cared, couldn't he just get exactly how many years ago merlin was on the island (each time) and for how long, etc? 

[noblehunter]

It could mean that intellectus just covers the present state of the island. That is, Harry knows where the wasp nest is now but not the location of the previous nest.

[morriswalters]

Making any guesses about intellectus is not really a good game since it means exactly what Jim needs it to mean. So Alfred can speak English, which according to the book is part of his predefined vocabulary, but he was programmed by Merlin before modern English came about.

[toodeep]

Making any guesses about intellectus is not really a good game since it means exactly what Jim needs it to mean. So Alfred can speak English, which according to the book is part of his predefined vocabulary, but he was programmed by Merlin before modern English came about.

Good point.  You could make the argument that as a genius loci that it is plugged into the zeitgeist of the land around it, and thus because the predominant language of the area is English that it can just know English.  But by that argument he should know what twerking is, and that would just be wrong.

[Mira]

It could mean that intellectus just covers the present state of the island. That is, Harry knows where the wasp nest is now but not the location of the previous nest.

   I think that is it in a nutshell.  Yes, connection with the island tells Harry everything that is going on in that moment, but it cannot give a full run down of history.   Alfred can tell him that but Harry has to be able to understand what Alfred is trying to tell him, Bob was needed to simplify. 

[g33k]

... Honestly, if he really cared, couldn't he just get exactly how many years ago merlin was on the island (each time) and for how long, etc?

 

It could mean that intellectus just covers the present state of the island. That is, Harry knows where the wasp nest is now but not the location of the previous nest.

Interesting ideas...  very!

Harry has to actively engage with the topic.  If he is running, he knows what's underfoot, what's on his route (considering a goal, he knows the best route); if he wonders what animals are on the island, or plants, or etc etc etc... he knows any of that.  But he doesn't "know" any topic that he doesn't actively consider, actively interact with.

So...

Has Harry actively considered the island's history, while on the island?  I have to presume that he did indeed do so in the long interval between Cold Days and Skin Game, but... that was offscreen, and we don't know what (if any) results he got.  Damn that Butcher guy...

Do we have ANY onscreen instances of Harry-the-Warden-of-Demonreach trying to use intellectus to consider anything historical about the island?  Or explicitly querying Alfred?  Even mundane stuff, like the last time more than a few people overnight'ed there (prohibition smugglers, I presume (oh, hey -- d'you suppose there's some amazing aged Canadian whiskey buried somewhere on Demonreach???  Harry could probably score serious points with Mac, if he brought a case of that...      And obviously, anything like that buried there now, Harry just has to wonder about, to know where it is... ).

===

But I'm pretty sure that all things Magical and Merlin-centric are explicitly NOT covered by the intellectus effect:

• As I noted above, Harry wasn't sure if he could cross the empowered circle, near the end of Cold Days.
• As others noted above, Harry needed Bob to "translate" the wibbly-wabbly, magico-wagico stuff that Alfred actively wanted Harry to know.
• Harry has long wondered about the runes &c on the island, and would certainly have speculated (and learned whatever the intellectus could tell him) about them, during the CD/SG interval.
• In Turn Coat, Harry sets up a fight on the island to unmask the Bad Guy; Binder is one of the Bad Guy's hired hands, and Harry knows when each of the sumoned goons steps onto the island, but only infers the summoning-circle; he doesn't "know" it (<insert PSY/Gagnam voice> intellectus-style).

I suspect this is intentional:  the magic is described as more complex than anything Bob can even grasp; a direct grasp of this thrust into Harry's brain might break him.  I assume Merlin built the intellectus effect intentionally as "covers nothing magical."

This still leaves open the question of whether the intellectus knows anything other than current state of the island, i.e. mundane history.

[Mira]

Has Harry actively considered the island's history, while on the island?  I have to presume that he did indeed do so in the long interval between Cold Days and Skin Game, but... that was offscreen, and we don't know what (if any) results he got.  Damn that Butcher guy...

   It was my impression when he brought Bob onto the island to interact with Alfred, it was basically a history lesson that Harry got.. Knowing it's history is vital to knowing how the damn thing works.   Then in the year on the island that followed, Harry learned a great deal more I imagine.

[Arjan]

   It was my impression when he brought Bob onto the island to interact with Alfred, it was basically a history lesson that Harry got.. Knowing it's history is vital to knowing how the damn thing works.   Then in the year on the island that followed, Harry learned a great deal more I imagine.

I got the impression that the island also gets better in comunicating with Harry over time.

[g33k]

@Mira @Arjan --
Yes, but... none of that really speaks to the core question of whether Dresden's access to the Intellectus also gives him access to historical, non-"now" info.  Most of the Cold Days info-dump via Bob was magical content (which, as I discuss above, seems explicitly excluded from the intellectus, likely for safety reasons).

[Arjan]

@Mira @Arjan --
Yes, but... none of that really speaks to the core question of whether Dresden's access to the Intellectus also gives him access to historical, non-"now" info.  Most of the Cold Days info-dump via Bob was magical content (which, as I discuss above, seems explicitly excluded from the intellectus, likely for safety reasons).

It was also only about island related stuff.

[morriswalters]

The nature of intellectus on the island is settled in the text.  It's specific to the island. And it is more about the state of the island then any intellectual thing. What Demonreach knows or can know is a separate matter.  We know he is aware of how the island and prison came to be. And he knows how it works.  The question being can he translate the journals?  And the answer is he will if Jim needs him to. Unless I missed something there is nothing in the text to forbid it.

My question would be, if the book is damaged, could Harry bring the book to the island, and if he did, could Demonreach visualize it without destroying it?  That is my thought process. It arises from this quote.

He touched the first two books, very gently. “Can’t hardly read them no more, even if you can make it through the language.”
“Who wrote those two?”
“Merlin,” Ebenezar said simply. He reached past me to put his own journal back up in place. “One of these days, Hoss, I think I’ll need you to take care of these for me.”

[toodeep]

I reread the fight with Shagnasty last night, and when the runes light up and stop him Harry specifically wonders what they are.  He does not get any intellectus download about them, so obviously there are limits about the kind of information intellectus can give him, even about things that have been part of the island for centuries.

[Mira]

@Mira @Arjan --
Yes, but... none of that really speaks to the core question of whether Dresden's access to the Intellectus also gives him access to historical, non-"now" info.  Most of the Cold Days info-dump via Bob was magical content (which, as I discuss above, seems explicitly excluded from the intellectus, likely for safety reasons).

  Yet, during his year on the island the only access to information Harry seemed to have gotten was the defenses of the island and how to get them running again, nothing else.  And when you think about it considering what the island is holding all it should be concerted about.  Also consider even though Harry did his bond thing with the intellectus and knew what was going on at that moment on the island, he was still blocked from knowing anything about the prison aspect of the island..  It wasn't until he accepted that he was it's warden did he get access to that information.  It is very possible he had been educated about all his charges in the prison, and he may be able to understand their languages so he cannot be fooled by them.

I reread the fight with Shagnasty last night, and when the runes light up and stop him Harry specifically wonders what they are.  He does not get any intellectus download about them, so obviously there are limits about the kind of information intellectus can give him, even about things that have been part of the island for centuries.

Harry also wasn't officially warden at that time, he wasn't given the information..  However even when he got it he needed Bob to simplify and then it still took time for Harry to really get it and do what needed to be done in the following year.

[g33k]

In Doylist, plot-line terms, how Harry learns to read Merlin's books -- IF he does -- doesn't seem like that big a deal.

We have lots of viable mechanisms, I think that's been shown pretty clearly.

It's possible that it will matter who -- what entity -- helps him, and the manner of the help.  Does he work with Translator-Bob, or Translator-Bonea?  Bob is a no-filter enthusiast, he's liable to get Harry in over his head (but then again... what else is new?).  Bonea is partly-Lash, and there may be some reversion to Fallen sorts of mindsets from the psychic trauma of "dying" in the Outsider-attack, or from the icy prison Mab put her in, or from the "traumatic birth" or etc etc etc; and there may be some sort of "keep him in the dark, for his own good" mindset, that Harry used to do so much (and sometimes now notices other people doing to him).

The "cleanest" way would be for Harry to get an Instant Language upgrade; something like Translator-Lash did with Ghoul-Sumerian and Whamp-Etruscan.  Assuming it isn't an Angelic trick, I presume that Mab or Odin or some-such could be bargained-with to gain the right knowledge to read those books.  But of course THAT is too clean a solution, without enough torment and inconvenience for Harry, so I'm pretty confident that Jim Bastardutcher wouldn't write it that way.

Other methods have been shown.  I presume Jim can see all of these, or invent yet another different method if needed.

[Bad Alias]

It could mean that intellectus just covers the present state of the island. That is, Harry knows where the wasp nest is now but not the location of the previous nest.

Harry knows where certain animals will be in Turn Coat. I assume that's because he knows their patterns and past.

I suspect this is intentional:  the magic is described as more complex than anything Bob can even grasp; a direct grasp of this thrust into Harry's brain might break him.  I assume Merlin built the intellectus effect intentionally as "covers nothing magical."

I thought the intellectus was from the genus loci which Merlin didn't create. Merlin created the prison, not the island. I think there is some WoJ on point, but I'm not certain of that.

I got the impression that the island also gets better in comunicating with Harry over time.

I'm fairly certain you're impression is correct.