Author Topic: Peace Talks snippet on Entertainment Weekly  (Read 28469 times)

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Peace Talks snippet on Entertainment Weekly
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2020, 11:40:30 PM »
old welsh was actually the language of everyone on the kingdom(s) where Merlin operated.

But why would he use latin for his personal diaries?
The places Merlin is said to have operated in the books are Rome, Alexandria, under Edinburgh, and the middle of Lake Michigan.

The reason he would use Latin (or Greek) in his journals is because they (1) had written language (2) that would be widely used in the magical communities.

In the Mediterranean, sure!

...

Folklorically, Merlin came from the people FIGHTING the Romans (and the Christian church!))

If we want to get pedantic:  Old Welsh is probably too recent to be Merlin's mother tongue!  ;) ...
He operated around the Mediterranean, which was the center of the White Council, which he established. Harry says something, I don't remember specifically what or when, about Merlin setting up or helping set up the Catholic Church. When did written language become a thing in Wales? I truly have no idea.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Peace Talks snippet on Entertainment Weekly
« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2020, 12:31:29 AM »
I couldn't really find anything about writings in between Roman times and into the second millennium.
Quote
The newly discovered documents written in Latin – which date from between AD 43 and AD 80.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2091213-britains-oldest-writing-found-buried-near-london-tube-station/#ixzz6C5aJv7nM

Quote
Whether the Celts who lived in Britain at the time of the Roman conquest were literate isn’t known. No evidence of them writing has been found so far.

However, we do know that merchants operated in Britain before the conquest, and probably communicated with the Roman empire. “So it is still technically possible that somewhere in Britain we might get a collection of earlier material,” says Birley. “But I have to say that’s extremely unlikely.”
Id.

Apparently there isn't a clear answer on whether or not Merlin's people had writing, but mainland European Celts definitely did. https://www.academia.edu/2567392/Evidence_for_written_Celtic_from_Roman_Britain_a_linguistic_analysis_of_Tabellae_Sulis_14_and_18. A Merlin who did half the things the Dresden Files Merlin did would have almost certainly known Latin and Greek.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Peace Talks snippet on Entertainment Weekly
« Reply #62 on: January 26, 2020, 02:27:07 AM »
I have no idea what language Merlin spoke. But if there is something Harry needs from the book, he'll get it. For all we know Alfred could translate it.

Offline g33k

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Re: Peace Talks snippet on Entertainment Weekly
« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2020, 06:15:02 AM »
Read Chapter Fourteen of Turn coat.  If Merlin Founded the Council ...

Will do; and thank you for the pointer! 

... at least according to Jim.

Well....  That'd be "according to Harry" (not Jim) and we know Harry to be an "unreliable narrator."

Offline Arjan

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Re: Peace Talks snippet on Entertainment Weekly
« Reply #64 on: January 26, 2020, 12:52:46 PM »
Old welsh is indeed too much a simplification because according to scholars that only started around 800AD, he spoke the precursor language but if I say British all sorts of people think I mean English.

The original merlin from Jim’s story as told by Harry might have picked up some language skills but these are not his mother tongue. Alfabet scan be adapted to write another language people probably did. Contemporary Irish and Germanic peoples had their own alfabet, runic and ogham, as well.

The mere fact that we do not have books in Brythonic does not mean that people did not write.

The journals are a really personal thing so he probably wrote in the language that came easiest to him. that was certainly not Greek.

Of course Jim might base his story on Malory in which case he wrote medieval French.
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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Peace Talks snippet on Entertainment Weekly
« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2020, 06:50:54 PM »
Alfabet scan be adapted to write another language people probably did.
When I was trying to figure out when the Welsh people (or whatever we should call the people of Wales in Merlin's time) started writing, I came across information about the origins of the written word generally. I found that the Phoenician alphabet (basically the one we use) was adopted and altered a few times until the Romans adopted and altered it and spread it across Europe. In my second link, the author is discussing "curse tablets" were written in typical Roman script in Celtic in Britain. The author argues against the academic assumption of British illiteracy.
(click to show/hide)
(quote the author is arguing against) The author doesn't really come to a conclusion. The period the paper covers goes up to ~200. In my googling, I couldn't find anything about writing in Wales between then and about 1200-1400.

Somebody who was familiar enough with the Library of Alexandria to rescue specific books from it would likely be familiar enough with the languages those books were written in to be comfortable enough with those languages to write in them.

Another possibility is that Merlin's journals are written in Norse. Merlin is rumored to have been taught by Odin. Odin was the one to "discover" the Norse runes. If Merlin was taught by Odin, it stands to reason that Merlin's journals might be written in Norse in Norse runes.

No matter what language and script is used, Harry has a lot of resources that are likely to be able to translate them or teach Harry how to read them. If they're in Welsh language of the time, then the Welsh fairies Harry's friend's with could help. If they're in Norse, Odin could help. If they're in Latin or Greek, Bob could help him (or any number of academics). Further, there is a good chance that Bonea could help him no matter what script or language they're in.

A bigger challenge than script and language may be legibility. Ebeneezer remarks on it. Academics have high tech means of examining ancient texts. With his resources, Harry could avail himself of these techniques, or perhaps a spirit of intellect could do the same thing.

But as Morris said, if the journals become relevant to the story, Harry will be able to read them to the extent necessary for the story. For me, the only point of discussing all this is to demonstrate the plausible languages and scripts they could be in and how Harry could plausibly understand them.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Peace Talks snippet on Entertainment Weekly
« Reply #66 on: January 26, 2020, 07:34:35 PM »
The books we have are preserved because monks thought the iportant enough to copy and preserve. The oldest writings not in the official latin were scribbles in the margins of books and I think that this shows writing in the spoken language was already established but just for private use:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juvencus_Manuscript


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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Peace Talks snippet on Entertainment Weekly
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2020, 09:24:01 PM »
I had an amusing thought, who knows all of mankind's languages? Ivy. Also the working assumption has been that Merlin was Welsh.  Maybe the legend was, but what about the man?  What if he's a time traveler? And Eb mentions that the manuscripts are fragile.  Another point. Who bound them?

Offline Arjan

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Re: Peace Talks snippet on Entertainment Weekly
« Reply #68 on: January 26, 2020, 11:11:47 PM »
I had an amusing thought, who knows all of mankind's languages? Ivy. Also the working assumption has been that Merlin was Welsh.  Maybe the legend was, but what about the man?  What if he's a time traveler? And Eb mentions that the manuscripts are fragile.  Another point. Who bound them?
Ivy can not tell him. The main problem with getting help from other people is that they will get the knowledge as well and Harry won't share.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Peace Talks snippet on Entertainment Weekly
« Reply #69 on: January 26, 2020, 11:52:20 PM »
Ivy can not tell him. The main problem with getting help from other people is that they will get the knowledge as well and Harry won't share.

The Archive knows what was written, it knows everything that was ever written.  But whether or not it would translate for Harry through Ivy is another matter.  Who knows?  I can see Ivy willing to do it because she and Harry have a special bond, but there may be rules against her doing so.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Peace Talks snippet on Entertainment Weekly
« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2020, 03:22:42 AM »
The Archive knows what was written, it knows everything that was ever written.  But whether or not it would translate for Harry through Ivy is another matter.  Who knows?  I can see Ivy willing to do it because she and Harry have a special bond, but there may be rules against her doing so.
It is written down. Ivy knows. But beings like Ivy can not just go around and help people, that would make life too easy for everyone else.

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Offline g33k

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Re: Peace Talks snippet on Entertainment Weekly
« Reply #71 on: January 27, 2020, 03:23:22 AM »
... For all we know Alfred could translate it.

Harry know some things on the island just by thinking about them, as we've seen him run in the dark, etc.

Magic seems to be different.  Harry didn't know, for example, that he could get through the barrier, at the climactic Fae Showdown in Cold Days; that was an educated guess, a deduction... maybe an intuition, that it "should" work that way.

I don't think Alfred knows a lot about the various enchantments.  I don't think he's a viable translator.

OTOH, time-travelling Merlin could easily have realized the problem, and left a Rosetta Stone in Alfred's care, just as Maggie left the Way-Stone in Lea's care...

Offline Mira

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Re: Peace Talks snippet on Entertainment Weekly
« Reply #72 on: January 27, 2020, 12:55:59 PM »
It is written down. Ivy knows. But beings like Ivy can not just go around and help people, that would make life too easy for everyone else.

  That is true, however Harry may be a special case.   1] He gave her a name and treated her like
the little girl she was, instead of merely a living vessel for the Archive. 2] When she was captured by the Denarians, he risked quite a bit to save her when the Council would have let her rot..  She might feel that she owes him... However that is Ivy the young human woman, not the Archive, let's not get the two confused.

Offline toodeep

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Re: Peace Talks snippet on Entertainment Weekly
« Reply #73 on: January 27, 2020, 03:38:44 PM »
Hmmm.  Raises the question of how intellectus works.  Could Harry take the books to the island and "just know" what information they contain...

Offline Mira

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Re: Peace Talks snippet on Entertainment Weekly
« Reply #74 on: January 27, 2020, 05:15:00 PM »
Hmmm.  Raises the question of how intellectus works.  Could Harry take the books to the island and "just know" what information they contain...

I doubt it, remember that is why he "borrowed back" Bob, because he needed him to break down
what Alfred was trying to explain to him.   If being warden on the island meant he'd just know, he wouldn't have had to do that.