WAG - Harry has never met Justin DuMorne. His Justin was Heinrich Kemmler.

[Gigglestomp]

Jim has always said that Justin is DEAD. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Harry's Justin is dead. We have seen that necromancers such as corpse-taker can possess another body. Kemmler got killed "A couple of times" because he never stayed dead. Either he body snatched someone or he went through a resurrection ritual like in Ghost Story.

I suspect when Justin DuMorne wasn't actually a bad guy. He went with the council to kill Kemmler the last time - Kemmler body snatched him. That kimmler "Died" but was actually Justin. Justin is D-E-D-DEAD. Kimmler-Justin took bob home from the scene and laid low. Then he recruited a couple of starborn apprentices and kicked off our series.

Harry didnt kill Kemmler either - that would be laughable. Harry only thinks he killed Justin. Kemmler-Justin is the founder and leader of the Black Council and he set harry on a path.

He sent Elaine to the summer court to corrupt and infect the summer lady with Nemesis.

He went to Justin's old master Simon and convinced him to join up. They torpedo-d arch-angel using the reds and faked his death.

They manipulated things to pick the next Senior Council Member, and Simon became Cowl. Kummori is Elaine. She manipulated things so that The Leanansidhe took the corrupt blade and became infected by Nemesis who then infected Maeve. We know as well that Elaine has used outsiders at least once - mortal magic was used in Summer Knight at the Walmart to create the mind fog. Dresden said the Mind Fog was an outsider I believe. They kind of brushed the implications aside.

I haven't decided if Simon has truly drunk the cool-aid or not. He may be trying to take down the black Council from within. He may be corrupt. I believe out of the two I am more inclined to think he is corrupt and Black Council and not a mole inside the black council. Though if hes been working to destabilize them from within that could be an interesting twist.

Justin-Kimmler could have an intact body or he could be in a brand new body if he burned up Justin's in the fire. That adds a whole new level of paranoia for the secondary characters betraying Harry.

[spiritofair]

Nice theory!

I don't know about the mind fog being Outsider-related, though. Butters makes mind fog bombs.

Why not just have Kemmler be Cowl? Would make even more sense to have Elaine be Kumori, since she would have been his thrall all along. Maybe he isn't as strong as he used to be because Justin's body is too weak. Kind of like how Luccio is not as strong in her new body.

[g33k]

... We know as well that Elaine has used outsiders at least once - mortal magic was used in Summer Knight at the Walmart to create the mind fog. Dresden said the Mind Fog was an outsider I believe. They kind of brushed the implications aside...

+1 with spiritofair ...  I think you missed this element, but otherwise you have an intriguing WAG!

I agree that if we could definitively tie Elaine to Outsiders, it'd put her solidly into the "untrustworthy, probable enemy" category, but I don't think the mindfog shows it.

[Bad Alias]

I think Bob presents a problem for this theory. Why wouldn't Bob know that Justin and Kemmler are the same person? On the other hand, it would explain why "Kemmler's Bob" made the comment "the master will not be pleased you have meddled with his servant." Bob also makes comments about finally being able to leave Harry behind, but doesn't say anything about Justin.

Another point is that Cowl's arms are scarred. Maybe by a house fire? Also Cowl says "I have nothing but disdain for the madman Kemmler." Was this misdirection or the truth?

Harry just said the mind fog was illegal and he wasn't sure a faerie queen could pull it off outside of the Nevernever.

[morriswalters]

The reality is that as long as there are body switchers, anything is possible. But Bob would have known that Kemmler jumped to a new body, wouldn't he? 

[g33k]

The reality is that as long as there are body switchers, anything is possible...

True dat!  Infinite WAGs...

... But Bob would have known that Kemmler jumped to a new body, wouldn't he?

I would presume so, yes.  Based upon Bob's conversations with Harry, it appears that Bob switches between normal vision and the Sight VERY often (or maybe has some wonky always-on dual-vision).  So yeah, I've got to presume Bob seen the Aura, and would have known; and COULD have said something... if he were permitted to!  A K-swapped J could easily have ordered EvilBob to Say Nothing, Slave! and then whatever Harry did to OrangeBob him might have accidentally suppressed the info (alongside all the other EvilBob info) before OrangeBob could volunteer it ...

[Snark Knight]

Harry just said the mind fog was illegal and he wasn't sure a faerie queen could pull it off outside of the Nevernever.

I don't think Harry would have understood it as well if it was Outsider work. He's shown resistance to that, but it's never been anywhere near as easy to counter as his trick of tying ribbon around the fingers to keep it out.

It's illegal, but pretty mundanely illegal.

[KurtinStGeorge]

The is a very clever OP, but that doesn't mean I agree with it.  Aside from the problem of Bob knowing Kemmler and Justin were the same person, I think there are other problems as well.  Harry should have been able to get a feeling for Justin's magical aura.  If Justin was body swapped by Kemmler, when Harry met Kemmler's disciples in Dead Beat, he should have noticed the similarity between the feel of their magic and Justin's. 

However, my big problem has to do with the dark hallow ritual.  Kemmler was trying to pull it off when the White Council killed him for the final time in 1961.  Harry was born 26 years before the events in Storm Front which occurred in 2000, give or take a year or two. Source:  https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline  So that means Harry is born sometime between 1972 and 1976.  Harry is adopted by Justin at the age of 10.  Around nine years before SF when Harry is 16, Harry has his showdown with Justin.  This occurs sometime between 1989 and 1993.  To simplify things I'm going to guess that Storm Front took place in 2000.  Harry is born October 31, 1974, he is adopted in late 1984 or early 1995 and has his battle with Justin in late 1990 or sometime in 1991 before October 31.

Let's go with the 1991 date for Harry battle with Justin.  Justin who is really Kemmler has thirty years to plan and attempt to pull off the dark hallow, and he never makes an attempt.  I'm not buying it.  Kemmler wouldn't need to find any books.  He would already know how to do it.  Think of the odd circumstances which led Harry to learn about the Word of Kemmler.  Because Justin/Kemmler wouldn't have to look for the Word, it would be virtually impossible for anyone to know what he was doing until it was too late to stop him. 

[spiritofair]

Good point KSG, very unlikely Cowl is Kemmler based on what you're saying about the Darkhallow. Also, if Cowl was Justin was Kemmler, Harry would have recognized him and/or his magic.

But, Kemmler could still be lurking about in another body. Maybe he hopped into Justin, corrupted him, then hopped out and went on to someone else? As morris said, infinite WAGs if that's the case.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Good point KSG, very unlikely Cowl is Kemmler based on what you're saying about the Darkhallow. Also, if Cowl was Justin was Kemmler, Harry would have recognized him and/or his magic.

But, Kemmler could still be lurking about in another body. Maybe he hopped into Justin, corrupted him, then hopped out and went on to someone else? As morris said, infinite WAGs if that's the case.

At first I read, " he (Kemmler) hopped into Justin, corrupted him, then hoped out went on to someone else," I thought OK, maybe that works, but thinking about it I've got to question that idea too.  It depends on Justin remaining in his own mind but being overwhelmed by Kemmler.  Similar to a denarian taking over the coin bearer's decisions or nemesis taking over one of its victims.  We don't have any indication a necromancer can do this.  Corpse Taker could paralyze Harry and make him forget he was in danger, but she couldn't corrupt Harry or make him think in differently about right and wrong.

So where does this leave the idea of Kemmler jumping into Justin and then moving into someone else?  Well, there is one candidate for him to have jumped into, Elaine.  This might seem like a really nasty twist that would be emotionally devastating for Harry; "Yes, Harry Dresden, when you thought you were killing Justin du Morne you were really killing your first love," but it runs into the same problem of Elaine/Kemmler having more than a couple of decades to plan and pull off a dark hallow and not doing so, and Elaine/Kemmler playing private detective and helping minor magical talents survive the Fomor and other supernatural baddies.  As Mr. Spock would say, "That is highly illogical." (And I mean real ST TOS Mr. Spock, not pathetic emo Star Trek Discovery Spock.)   

[Mira]

At first I read, " he (Kemmler) hopped into Justin, corrupted him, then hoped out went on to someone else," I thought OK, maybe that works, but thinking about it I've got to question that idea too.  It depends on Justin remaining in his own mind but being overwhelmed by Kemmler.  Similar to a denarian taking over the coin bearer's decisions or nemesis taking over one of its victims.  We don't have any indication a necromancer can do this.  Corpse Taker could paralyze Harry and make him forget he was in danger, but she couldn't corrupt Harry or make him think in differently about right and wrong.

So where does this leave the idea of Kemmler jumping into Justin and then moving into someone else?  Well, there is one candidate for him to have jumped into, Elaine.  This might seem like a really nasty twist that would be emotionally devastating for Harry; "Yes, Harry Dresden, when you thought you were killing Justin du Morne you were really killing your first love," but it runs into the same problem of Elaine/Kemmler having more than a couple of decades to plan and pull off a dark hallow and not doing so, and Elaine/Kemmler playing private detective and helping minor magical talents survive the Fomor and other supernatural baddies.  As Mr. Spock would say, "That is highly illogical." (And I mean real ST TOS Mr. Spock, not pathetic emo Star Trek Discovery Spock.)

Yeah, I don't buy any of that.  I think Justin is the honest cop that got corrupted,  after all the years
he gave as a warden to find himself with very little to retire on..  From there it was a slippery slope.

[Bad Alias]

I don't think it was because he didn't have any money. See generally How do Wizards make a living? at https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53261.0.html. I think he was either corrupted by Simon, who was a bit iffy, or corrupted for some other reason.

[g33k]

Yeah, I don't buy any of that.  I think Justin is the honest cop that got corrupted,  after all the years he gave as a warden to find himself with very little to retire on..  From there it was a slippery slope.

I agree on that last sentence; "from there it was a slippery slope."  But I don't think money was what brought him to the edge, pushed him over.

Justin was a wizard.  What got to him was power, and/or knowledge.

[Mira]

I agree on that last sentence; "from there it was a slippery slope."  But I don't think money was what brought him to the edge, pushed him over.

Justin was a wizard.  What got to him was power, and/or knowledge.

   I wasn't as clear as I should have been,  I was talking in terms of corrupt cops in general as far as money goes.  Yes, power and knowledge, but at the same time let's not totally rule money out of the equation, because even wizards have to live.  Up until Skin Game, unless he totally squanders his shoe box full or half full of diamonds one of Harry's biggest struggles has been to make ends meet financially.  While he hasn't become corrupt because of it, a driving need to pay the rent has pushed him into making some less than wise choices in the past.   

Wardens do get paid, but apparently not that much because in Harry's case at least, he still struggled after he became a warden.   Justin might have felt that he had given the White Council the best century of his life with little thanks.  This breeds resentment, which might lead to him helping himself to the skull/Bob when they took Kemmler down in payment.   This dissatisfaction leaves him
vulnerable to outside influences that would capitalize on his dissatisfaction and eventual rebellion which made him complicit in the plans of the enemy.   However Justin's reputation was so sterling that no one ever suspected until Harry took him down and even now many refuse to believe.

[g33k]

... let's not totally rule money out of the equation, because even wizards have to live ... one of Harry's biggest struggles has been to make ends meet financially...

I think Harry is unusually impoverished, for a wizard.  They have LOTS of ways to get rich, or just comfortable, should they choose to avail themselves.  Many of them wouldn't get anywhere close to breaking any Laws of Magic, or break Mortal laws, either.  I've always taken it to be DresdenStuborness(tm) (the unwillingness to do anything as "selfish" as making money easily with magic) that kept him poor.  I mean, Harry is an unusually powerful wizard, with a decided knack for "finding things" -- how many lost/unclaimed treasures d'you suppose Harry could find, if he didn't think that was "icky"?  I think it'd be a LOT...   And it doesn't even have to be valuables that he takes to liquidate; I bet there are troves of documents that historians would pay a premium to get, and he could grab a cool million or more as a "finders fee," etc etc etc.

If Justin DuMorne was actually hard up for money, it was similarly a "choice."

... While he hasn't become corrupt because of it, a driving need to pay the rent has pushed him into making some less than wise choices in the past ...

Yeah.  Harry's stupid that way.  Because he's got these magic powers, because he can do stuff... that makes him a real target for manipulation; choosing to be poor hangs a great big lever off himself saying, "Pull Here to motivate Harry Dresden."

... However Justin's reputation was so sterling that no one ever suspected until Harry took him down and even now many refuse to believe.

Do we actually know Justin's reputation?

I mean, he was obviously known as a very combat-capable Warden (or he wouldn't have been on Kemmler duty)!  Presumably, he shared in the general "Warden" rep -- the greycloaks are kinda grim, very dangerous, implacable, etc...

But what was his personal rep?  "Sterling," or "another powerful greycloak," or do we even know?

But I think the "refusal to believe" is just human nature, they don't want to face it.  Just like the mundanes will do almost anything to convince themselves that magic doesn't exist, that the supernatural beasties are just myths, etc.

Most wizards aren't actually very combat-capable (as the Spooky community judges such things).  They don't want to believe that one of their Wardens -- the very ones who keep them save from Warlocks and other Bad Magic -- can turn so evil, and be so undetected.