Christmas Eve story - Huge question

[Arjan]

Oh, not you again. You're doing the same thing with my posts here that you're doing on the Souls and Ghosts thread. Here's a suggestion: please read my posts before responding to them. In this case, the example I specifically gave was Mouse being hurt--so he couldn't handle it.

Hurt so much that he could not communicate with Maggie?

I am doing nothing strange with your posts. I just think you missed a few points, that is all.

[nadia.skylark]

Hurt so much that he could not communicate with Maggie?

So the theory is, Maggie will never agree to receive help from an entity that has proven willing to be helpful, so long as there's someone around to tell her not to? That seems both unlikely and unsustainable.

I am doing nothing strange with your posts. I just think you missed a few points, that is all.

It's less an issue here than on the other thread, but you seem to have a habit of responding to my posts in a way that indicates that either you haven't read them, or that you've dismissed what I've said in them out of hand for no good reason that you've explicated.

[Silentbrick]

We are veering way off topic here.  Does Mother Winter owe Harry a gift?   And if Eb falls during Peace Talks, before passing the staff, does it return to Mother Winter?   That's how I can see Harry getting it.  But I really think based on the laws of three and the fact he has duties and obligations of varying kinds to each Queen, if two of them owe him a gift for Christmas, then Mother Winter must as well.  From the description in Changes, Harry could very well of asked Mab "Is it going to try to eat me?" because the Black staff already tried to?

And yes, it'd be great if someone manages to ask Herr Butcher about this at some point, because I'd really like to know.

[nadia.skylark]

We are veering way off topic here.  Does Mother Winter owe Harry a gift?   And if Eb falls during Peace Talks, before passing the staff, does it return to Mother Winter?   That's how I can see Harry getting it.  But I really think based on the laws of three and the fact he has duties and obligations of varying kinds to each Queen, if two of them owe him a gift for Christmas, then Mother Winter must as well.  From the description in Changes, Harry could very well of asked Mab "Is it going to try to eat me?" because the Black staff already tried to?

I had a thought. What if each Queen owed a different kind of gift?

Molly's gift was for Harry--his peace of mind. (Yes, it also benefited a lot of other people, but I'm pretty sure neither Molly nor Harry owed them anything.)
Mab's gift was for Harry's dependents--or one specifically: Maggie.
If this is a progression, then Mother Winter might owe Harry a gift for all of Winter--which could explain why she doesn't have to show up at the Carpenters' in order to deliver it.

[Arjan]

So the theory is, Maggie will never agree to receive help from an entity that has proven willing to be helpful, so long as there's someone around to tell her not to? That seems both unlikely and unsustainable.

I just think it likely that Maggie got a far better education about what the Sidhe are and why not to take gifts than Harry had when her age. Any communication with mouse would support that.

Also I think that Molly's protection of the Carpenter family would include Maggie which makes it even more unlikely that Mab would interfere on her turf.

It's less an issue here than on the other thread, but you seem to have a habit of responding to my posts in a way that indicates that either you haven't read them, or that you've dismissed what I've said in them out of hand for no good reason that you've explicated.

I read them and I gave my reasons for how I interpret the text. That is all. You may disagree but I suggest you stop replying when it is no fun anymore. I will do the same.

[forumghost]

I mean we all know the real reason she won't fuck with Maggie- It's not practical. Maggie primary (and currently sole) potential use is as leverage against her father, and Mab:

A) Has no need to play that Card, because she has Harry by the short hairs and she know it

B) is equally aware that if she plays that Card, she's going to have to either kill Harry (and cost herself a useful agent for no benefit), or risk throwing down with a Necromantic God after Harry decides "Y'know what, fuck you Mab, I'm gonna go eat a Capital City and then come back to finish this conversation".

[g33k]

I mean we all know the real reason she won't fuck with Maggie- It's not practical. Maggie primary (and currently sole) potential use is as leverage against her father ...

Mab has already fucked with Maggie, and is likely to keep doing it.

She took Maggie's dad to be her Winter Knight.  That is fucked up in soooo many ways, right there.

She has Maggie's oldest sister as Winter Lady.  You know, the cool sister, who went all goth-y and rebellious, but made up afterwards, and still comes home sometimes and does snowball-fights and other cool stuff.  But in the end, Molly's still the Winter Lady, and is gonna be icy in all sorts of subtle ways.

And she's slipping Maggie the kinds of gifts that every little girl dreams of... the kinds of gifts that only a Faerie Queen can provide.  And weasels her fucked-up way into Maggie's higher estimation.

... Mab:
A) Has no need to play that Card, because she has Harry by the short hairs and she know it ...

Mab won't always have Harry by the short hairs (and I suspect she knows it).  But she'll have SOME sort of a handle on Harry so long as she has input on Maggie.

B) is equally aware that if she plays that Card, she's going to have to either kill Harry (and cost herself a useful agent for no benefit), or risk throwing down with a Necromantic God after Harry decides "Y'know what, fuck you Mab, I'm gonna go eat a Capital City and then come back to finish this conversation".

Pretty sure that's a threat that Harry cannot make good upon.  Until he figures out how to un-Mantle, there's nowhere he can go that Mab cannot know, cannot find him.  The Mantle inside him is a part of Winter, part of Mab's own power.  The moment Harry starts Necromanting, Mab is gonna feel it, and stop it (unless she figures she can control even Darkhallow-Harry via the Mantle).  He can maybe get a moment of privacy if he draws a circle... but probably not!  With Winter already inside him, I will assert that Mab herself is inside the circle, too!

You recall near the end of Cold Days, he figured out he could step across the big circle on Demonreach because he was PART of the island, in some sense already inside it.  Confirmed(ish) later by Molly repeating his logic with mud from the island itself.  Winter inside Harry means a mere circle will no longer keep out Mab!

Last but not least:  I suspect the Darkhallow is gone from his mind, from when Lash took the psychic bullet (it remains to be seen whether Bonea knows some/all of Lash's info) and so much of the Lash-knowledge (Ghouls' speach, etc) departed.
 

[Silentbrick]

If Mab knows what Harry's thinking and doing, why didn't she know what Lloyd Slate was up to?   By that logic she should have known he was the one that killed the Summer Knight.   I suspect Mab has to find Harry through other means.   

[Bad Alias]

@morris: Thanks. So Mab tells Harry “I am not giving you a gift.  I am fulfilling to you an obligation," “If you give her the ring," and “Make sure she knows who gave it to her." It seems to me that wants Harry to tell Maggie that the ring is from Mab. Mab does not act without purpose. But, the truth is that Harry will be the one who gave her the ring. Mab's obligation is to Harry, not Maggie. So that leads me back to "maybe Harry doesn't tell her it's from Mab."

Does Mother Winter owe Harry a gift?   And if Eb falls during Peace Talks, before passing the staff, does it return to Mother Winter?

Maybe she owes him a gift, but he has to go to her to get it. Jim's said some contradictory stuff on how the staff goes from one wizard to the next. He's said the Blackstaff chooses his successor and he's said that the Blackstaff goes to the wizard willing to pick it up. It seems that under both circumstances, the staff does not return to Mother Winter.

You recall near the end of Cold Days, he figured out he could step across the big circle on Demonreach because he was PART of the island, in some sense already inside it.  Confirmed(ish) later by Molly repeating his logic with mud from the island itself.  Winter inside Harry means a mere circle will no longer keep out Mab!

Last but not least:  I suspect the Darkhallow is gone from his mind, from when Lash took the psychic bullet (it remains to be seen whether Bonea knows some/all of Lash's info) and so much of the Lash-knowledge (Ghouls' speach, etc) departed.

Circles are used to summon things. Harry summoned Mab. That's how she showed up. At least that's what the book says. Harry's been wrong before about how things work.

Based on what's happened, it really seems like Harry shouldn't know how to do the Darkhallow, but Jim has repeatedly said that he could have.

[morriswalters]

If Mab knows what Harry's thinking and doing, why didn't she know what Lloyd Slate was up to?   By that logic she should have known he was the one that killed the Summer Knight.   I suspect Mab has to find Harry through other means.

I don't know about Slate, but she always finds Harry when she wants to.  She found him after Kincaid plugged him fast enough to keep him alive.  Personally I think her buddy the Gatekeeper has a satellite lock on him. Another person who can find him anywhere.

[Spookyrcon]

I think there is something we are all forgetting... Harry has an amazing gift for influencing others both with words and deeds.  We remember Lasciel’s shadow eventually evolved into Lash which in turn later begat Bonnea.  So he has shown he can create life, a positive one at that, from an otherwise dark being. 

Mab, as much as any Mother, is sentimental.  Proof in her reluctance to act against Maeve directly and having Harry, as her Knight, move to counter Maeve’s attempts to destroy the Well.  Other interactions with Harry have led to glimpses in Mab softening just a little... being a little more open to kindness in lieu of coercion. I think Maggie’s gift is a reflection of this... I think Mab is, in her own way, being kind to his vassal’s daughter...Maggie is a reminder of her own experiences as a Mother.  Also due to the very nature of the Rites invoked to become the Winter Knight... Harry could be viewed as Mab’s Consort/spiritual spouse.  It would therefore make absolute sense for Mab to dote upon Maggie. Yes, Mab could act from an ulterior motive... but maybe, just maybe, even she recognizes it doesn’t profit her to have Harry maintain a constantly adversarial relationship.  Maybe giving Maggie a gift is her way of fulfilling her obligation to her vassal to be a worthy Liege as well as just repaying the minor kindness that Harry tends to give any female.... but at times even the courtesies he gives to Mab are not solely out of a Vassal’s obligations but from a more compassionate place in his heart.  He has in private lent his ear to her, particularly involving sparing her pride and grief over Maeve’s death.  That is something Mab may not find with anyone else.... and may also contribute to why she has finally found a Worthy Knight in Harry.  Just my thoughts.... I don’t think we have to automatically ascribe malice or manipulation to Mab’s actions in this case.

[g33k]

And as I said in an earlier post, Harry can't do anything close to that to the Winter Court, or at least not unless he's prepared to let the Outsiders win ...

Sure he can!

He just needs to line up their replacement, first.

He saw the power-vacuum left by knocking off the Ramps, and he knows what Winter is doing, so you're right:  he won't just "eliminate the Winterfae, fullstop."

But hey... we have Fight Night coming up (or whatever Jim ends up titling "The Wrestling Book").  Filled with bored dilettante gods who have nothing worth doing.

How about a Justice League coalition of dozens of pantheons' deities moving to defend the Outer Gates, as most of Winter's power dissipates back to being Wildfae, or resurgent Spring & Autumn courts, or both, or something else...
 

[Kindler]

I think at another fan interaction, someone claimed Jim had titled it Body Slam.

[FFguy]

While I'm sure you guys are on the right track, there is another possibility. Just as being Mab's knight imposes obligations on Harry, a balance must be kept. For me, the key element of the scene was the fact that she didn't have to personally deliver the gift and when Harry asked her about that fact she replied: “It does not do for the boss to spend too much time in the office.” The power could be a snare waiting to hook Maggie, but overall, I saw it as a boss giving her employee a Christmas bonus. There's no obligation in it for Harry (or Maggie for that matter). He's already paid it by being her vassal.

[Arjan]

“You are participating in the holiday this year,” Mab said.  “I have an obligation to my vassals.”

This says it all. Harry has enough obligations, Mab can have a few too and by celebrating Christmass Harry is actually celebrating winter and strengthen its story.