Christmas Eve story - Huge question

[Arjan]

I'm pretty sure the problem is that there's no real way to safely use a powerful sidhe who's been successfully manipulating people for longer than Harry, his mom, and his grandfather combined have been alive.

If we leave out the Nemesis influence and Harry's own deal with Lea we end up with an entity beneficial to Harry thanks to his mothers deal.

[morriswalters]

Man outright says "I have brought your gift."  And "I have an obligation to my vassals ."  So she IS gifting Harry.  It's only indirectly for Maggie. 

Molly also says her gift is part and parcel to the whole  winter lady gig.

Bob states that the knight has different duties to each queen.   But it just feels off for two out of three.

If it was a straight up gift then by the rules as Jim has laid them out, Harry would need to give them a gift in exchange. I'm reading it as part of the ongoing bargain that made Harry the Winter Knight. He incurs no further obligation.  Mother Winter hasn't killed him with her cleaver yet, so I'm calling it all good.

[RobReece]

One of the earlier post was asking if Mother Winter had given Harry the Blackstaff.  Mother Winter doesn't have it, Harry's grandfather does.

[nadia.skylark]

If we leave out the Nemesis influence and Harry's own deal with Lea we end up with an entity beneficial to Harry thanks to his mothers deal.

Has it been? Because it's been pointed out (by Aurora, admittedly, but there's tons of evidence that she's correct) that Lea has been manipulating him the entire time to make him colder, less trusting, more violent, more predatory, and generally more Winter-like--and I'm pretty sure that Harry would consider this to be quite detrimental. Some of it he might be fine with for himself, because he acknowledges the usefulness, but nowhere close to all or even most of it, and I don't believe he'd want any of it for his daughter.

Also, his deal with Lea was caused by her being his faerie godmother--she'd been hanging around his entire life (and probably helping with small things) which was both why she was around and why he trusted her enough to make the deal in the first place. That's actually the biggest reason why I'd expect Harry to object to Mab giving his daughter gifts: even if Harry can ensure that everything Mab does for Maggie due to her obligations to Harry is 100% positive and beneficial, he knows that that will only make Maggie more likely to make a bargain with Mab, and that there's no possible way that that will end well for her.

[Arjan]

Has it been? Because it's been pointed out (by Aurora, admittedly, but there's tons of evidence that she's correct) that Lea has been manipulating him the entire time to make him colder, less trusting, more violent, more predatory, and generally more Winter-like--and I'm pretty sure that Harry would consider this to be quite detrimental. Some of it he might be fine with for himself, because he acknowledges the usefulness, but nowhere close to all or even most of it, and I don't believe he'd want any of it for his daughter.

Also, his deal with Lea was caused by her being his faerie godmother--she'd been hanging around his entire life (and probably helping with small things) which was both why she was around and why he trusted her enough to make the deal in the first place. That's actually the biggest reason why I'd expect Harry to object to Mab giving his daughter gifts: even if Harry can ensure that everything Mab does for Maggie due to her obligations to Harry is 100% positive and beneficial, he knows that that will only make Maggie more likely to make a bargain with Mab, and that there's no possible way that that will end well for her.

Harry was an orphan surrounded by enemies and without any real knowledge about his situation. Maggie is in a totally different situation. She is smart, has access to knowledge and knows what monsters are. Her main danger is ignorance and Harry should have learned that lesson by now.

For now though Molly would be really pissed of if someone tried something like that.

[nadia.skylark]

Harry was an orphan surrounded by enemies and without any real knowledge about his situation. Maggie is in a totally different situation. She is smart, has access to knowledge and knows what monsters are.

...Wait, are you seriously claiming that a kid is capable of out-manipulating Mab? Because, no, just no. That's not happening.

For now though Molly would be really pissed of if someone tried something like that.

Molly? The Winter Lady? Who is, you know, completely incapable of disobeying any of Mab's orders? That Molly? Yes, I'm sure that she's going to be a big deterrent to Mab.[/sarcasm]

[Arjan]

...Wait, are you seriously claiming that a kid is capable of out-manipulating Mab? Because, no, just no. That's not happening.

She does not have to. In the end Maggie is Harry's child and she is not going to steal the child from her own vassal, she has nothing to gain doing so and a lot to lose. It will certainly make her own winter knight more useless.

Maggie only has to avoid doing stupid things like asking for something.

Molly? The Winter Lady? Who is, you know, completely incapable of disobeying any of Mab's orders? That Molly? Yes, I'm sure that she's going to be a big deterrent to Mab.[/sarcasm]

Is she? She is as capable of sabotaging her new mother as Maeve was. If Molly says she is hers to protect because she is technically her adopted sister or something like that Mab could create problems but that is very unlikely. She has nothing to gain and a lot to loose.

[nadia.skylark]

She does not have to. In the end Maggie is Harry's child and she is not going to steal the child from her own vassal, she has nothing to gain doing so and a lot to lose. It will certainly make her own winter knight more useless.

Maggie only has to avoid doing stupid things like asking for something.

I'm more thinking of what Michael said at the end of Skin Game, the whole "what is Mab going to do when she realizes that she can't change Harry" thing. Having Maggie involved in the Winter Court would be excellent leverage for Mab, and it's not like Harry can take them out the way he did the Red Court, so...

Also, I think you missed the first part of what I said, where I pointed out that Lea manipulated the type of person Harry grew up to be--Mab doesn't have to steal Maggie, or do anything that overt, in order to be dangerous to her.

Is she? She is as capable of sabotaging her new mother as Maeve was.

Not really. Maeve managed to do most of what she did because she was just fine with Outsiders winning, and Molly's really not.

If Molly says she is hers to protect because she is technically her adopted sister or something like that Mab could create problems but that is very unlikely.

1) I don't know that Molly could just say that and have it be true.

2) If Molly says that, Mab could just do to her what she did to Lea regarding Harry's debt, and force her to give over the responsibility to Mab.

3) Molly is also a Winter Faerie. In the short story, we can see that it's already started changing her a few days after she got it. So while being under her protection is certainly better than Mab's, it's not an unmitigated good either.

She has nothing to gain and a lot to loose.

Maybe. Maybe not. If, say, Harry finds a way out of the Winter Knight gig, then Mab would have quite a lot to gain by preventing him from doing so.

[Arjan]

I'm more thinking of what Michael said at the end of Skin Game, the whole "what is Mab going to do when she realizes that she can't change Harry" thing. Having Maggie involved in the Winter Court would be excellent leverage for Mab, and it's not like Harry can take them out the way he did the Red Court, so...

There is also the other part of the end of skin game where Harry and Molly bump into Mab's meeting with marcone and play their own game.

Also, I think you missed the first part of what I said, where I pointed out that Lea manipulated the type of person Harry grew up to be--Mab doesn't have to steal Maggie, or do anything that overt, in order to be dangerous to her.

Lea had far more opportunities with Harry than Mab will ever get with Maggie and there was no other influence to compensate for it. Maggie mostly lives with the carpenters and has Mouse. She is far better protected.

Not really. Maeve managed to do most of what she did because she was just fine with Outsiders winning, and Molly's really not.

1) I don't know that Molly could just say that and have it be true.

It is true and she is behaving like an older sister with Maggie.

2) If Molly says that, Mab could just do to her what she did to Lea regarding Harry's debt, and force her to give over the responsibility to Mab.

She could trade Harry's debt but she did not trade her obligation to Harrry. I do not think she could. Those are different things

3) Molly is also a Winter Faerie. In the short story, we can see that it's already started changing her a few days after she got it. So while being under her protection is certainly better than Mab's, it's not an unmitigated good either.

Maggie is connected to her old life and the obligations to her human family. I think that is pretty strong

Maybe. Maybe not. If, say, Harry finds a way out of the Winter Knight gig, then Mab would have quite a lot to gain by preventing him from doing so.

I do not see that happen and even if it happens it will only be after the BAT when Mab would not need an active more than average knight that much anymore. More than likely we will see that everything Mab asks Harry to do will in some ways be a good thing to do if done in Harry's way. As we see in Skin Game.

[nadia.skylark]

There is also the other part of the end of skin game where Harry and Molly bump into Mab's meeting with marcone and play their own game.

Yes, and?

Lea had far more opportunities with Harry than Mab will ever get with Maggie and there was no other influence to compensate for it. Maggie mostly lives with the carpenters and has Mouse. She is far better protected.

Harry's letting Mab give his daughter Christmas presents, the Winter Lady is acting as Maggie's big sister, and there's going to be a squad of Winter faeries next door as a protection detail. I'd say that's plenty of opportunities--in fact, I'd say it's more opportunities than Lea probably had.

It is true and she is behaving like an older sister with Maggie.

Regardless of how Molly is behaving, we do not know that it is true. There is no reason Molly's personal feelings of protectiveness and obligation should automatically translate to the metaphysical and binding obligations of the fae. As an example: Mab clearly felt love for her daughters, but she still had to make an explicit bargain with Sarissa before she could spend time with her. So there's no reason that Molly feeling like she should protect Maggie means that she actually can--I'd say it's far more likely that she can do very little to protect Maggie without a bargain allowing her to do so.

She could trade Harry's debt but she did not trade her obligation to Harrry. I do not think she could. Those are different things

So she prevents Molly from fulfilling her obligations (if there are any) instead, and then it's automatically her job.

Maggie is connected to her old life and the obligations to her human family. I think that is pretty strong

Maggie is also connected to the whole mess of Harry not loving Molly and asking her to help him suicide to protect Maggie, which I feel is also pretty strong.

Also, we've seen that the Winter Mantles can screw with people without them necessarily noticing.

I do not see that happen and even if it happens it will only be after the BAT when Mab would not need an active more than average knight that much anymore.

A) I'm not convinced. I think there's a good chance that Harry finds a way out, and then has to wrestle with whether he actually ought to use it.

B) I don't see Mab just letting Harry go after the BAT, just on general principle. It wouldn't be Mab to just give up a powerful knight that she's worked hard to get in favor of a mediocre one just because Harry doesn't like the job.

More than likely we will see that everything Mab asks Harry to do will in some ways be a good thing to do if done in Harry's way. As we see in Skin Game.

And as we see in Cold Case, there are plenty of things that Mab has her subordinates do that are in some ways a good thing and are still horrifying and the kind of thing Harry would want no part in.

[morriswalters]

Harry wiped out the Reds, every single one over Maggie.  Would Mab want to test that? And what narrative sense does it make for Jim to revisit that story line?

[nadia.skylark]

Harry wiped out the Reds, every single one over Maggie.  Would Mab want to test that?

And as I said in an earlier post, Harry can't do anything close to that to the Winter Court, or at least not unless he's prepared to let the Outsiders win (which would also get Maggie killed).

And what narrative sense does it make for Jim to revisit that story line?

No idea, and it's irrelevant to my point. What I'm saying is that, in-universe, Harry should be concerned about what Mab might be planning for Maggie, if she's giving her Christmas presents. Harry doesn't know that he's a character in a book, so narrative sense doesn't matter to him.

[morriswalters]

Harry doesn't seem to show a lot of concern for the rest of the world where Maggie was concerned.  And when Molly became the Winter Lady he threatened Mab with a bullet to the head.  So I'm not seeing Harry thinking about consequences when he gets pissed.

But sometimes a story has other purposes other than advancing the plot. Sometimes it's for fun, and brings us back in after a very long separation.  I don't see any significance in Mab's gift. However YMMV.

[nadia.skylark]

Harry doesn't seem to show a lot of concern for the rest of the world where Maggie was concerned.

It's a Morton's fork situation: if the options are Mab doing bad things to Maggie or Harry destroying the Winter Court a la the Red Court, then either way bad things happen to Maggie.

And when Molly became the Winter Lady he threatened Mab with a bullet to the head.  So I'm not seeing Harry thinking about consequences when he gets pissed.

Both times I can remember Harry threatening Mab, Mab has gone "hey, there are consequences" and Harry has backed down (that and Mab has also pointed out that there's a good chance Harry wouldn't win that fight). So clearly Harry thinks about consequences when reminded, and Mab is good at reminding him.

But sometimes a story has other purposes other than advancing the plot. Sometimes it's for fun, and brings us back in after a very long separation.  I don't see any significance in Mab's gift. However YMMV.

Yeah, I honestly don't think anything bad's going to come of it--I just think that Harry has no reason to believe that.

[morriswalters]

I like Morton's Fork.  But I was thinking in terms of cutting off your nose to spite your face. Something my mother accused me of.