Denarians and/or Circle in Storm Front?

[Mira]

I'm fairly certain that the sight had EIW in Storm Front because Harry see's the future of everything he looks at when using it at the lake house. Other than "the sight coming in" thing in Small Favor and the soulgaze with Molly, does anyone recall any connection between the sight and seeing/predicting the future?

It was Small Favor, Harry is on Demonreach for the first time to rescue Ivy and Marcone and he
feels like he has walked it's paths before.

[Bad Alias]

@morriswalters: I don't disagree with your interpretation of why Jim had the guy say what he said. I'm just saying I think he would have done it differently if his rules had been as developed as they are today. I'm also saying you can fit it in with his rules as they have been developed, but I believe the real explanation for why it seems out of place is actually just EIW.

@g33k: I was thinking about the conversation with Bob about how Walkers "aren't killable," which doesn't mention Outsiders and isn't even in the right book.

@Mira: And Lucio says it's something that happens to older wizards, not young ones. This doesn't prove that Harry couldn't have seen the future with his sight when he was younger, but suggests it when combined with it only definitely happening in one other instance and only maybe happening a second time in a soul gaze.

[Mira]

@Mira: And Lucio says it's something that happens to older wizards, not young ones. This doesn't prove that Harry couldn't have seen the future with his sight when he was younger, but suggests it when combined with it only definitely happening in one other instance and only maybe happening a second time in a soul gaze.

   Lucio says that after Harry mentions to her what he experienced on the island.  Actually she says he is about the right age to begin to experience that sort of thing. 

page 419 Small Favor

"Can I get your take on something?"  I asked her.
"Certainly."
I told her about my experience on the island, and the eerie sense of familiarity that had come with it.
"Oh that," Anastasia said.  "Your Sight's coming in.  That's all."
I blinked at her.  "Uh.  What?"
"The Sight," she replied calmly.  "Every wizard develops some measure of precognition as he matures.  It sounds to me as if yours has begun to stir, and has recognized a place that may be of significance to you in the future."

Harry then wants to know why he hadn't heard of it before?  She explains that they keep it quiet otherwise young wizards would see everything as prophecy, so it thought that it was better that they find out about it for themselves.  So while yeah, Harry may have seen the future in a soul gaze when he was younger, he apparently wouldn't know what he was seeing or in other words, the future.

[morriswalters]

@Bad Alias
Yeah he's all over the map in the first two books.  However I think Three Eye will be back in some fashion.  Looking back from today this looks like something the Fomor would cook up. It also looks like something a clandestine group would use if they went up against wizards.

[Bad Alias]

@morris: I basically agree. My only point of difference is I'm neutral on three-eye making a return. Wouldn't be surprised at all either way.

@Mira: Harry was 25 in Storm Front. He's 34 in Small Favor. He sees possible futures of everything he sees with the sight in Storm Front and knows that's what he's seeing. In Small Favor, he's about the right age for his precognition to begin to develop, it does, and he's put off by it because, dare I say, it's something he wouldn't have expected to happen. This strongly suggests EIW to me.

I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me or just adding clarifying citations to my references.

[Mira]

@morris: I basically agree. My only point of difference is I'm neutral on three-eye making a return. Wouldn't be surprised at all either way.

@Mira: Harry was 25 in Storm Front. He's 34 in Small Favor. He sees possible futures of everything he sees with the sight in Storm Front and knows that's what he's seeing. In Small Favor, he's about the right age for his precognition to begin to develop, it does, and he's put off by it because, dare I say, it's something he wouldn't have expected to happen. This strongly suggests EIW to me.

I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me or just adding clarifying citations to my references.

Maybe splitting hairs, but in Storm Front when Harry is looking at the house, he is purposely using
his wizard's Sight,  he senses a lot of things among them is death, he sees the house surrounded by death, as he says it could be his own.   However I think it is very different from what he experienced going down the path on the island in Small Favor.   When he is looking at the house in Storm Front, yeah, what he saw panned out, shortly there would be death in that house, however it was also the scene for the past orgies of death that ripped out hearts from miles away.   Sells was preparing one of those to take out Harry, so Harry was seeing it present tense for what it was it was, a place of death.   What he experienced on what would become Demonreach was still a couple of years or so in the future.  So one was merely what is always revealed to him if he uses his wizard's sight, while
what happened in Small Favor is normal precognition which is sometimes experienced and perfectly normal in wizards as they mature.

[Bad Alias]

Harry talks about how he sees things in houses's future and all the seasons. Then he says the future seen with the sight is changeable. "No matter how strong the vision, how powerful the image gained with the Sight, the future was always mutable, always something that can be changed." - Storm Front

I think it is very different from what he experienced going down the path on the island in Small Favor.

If you add "and all the other books" to your quote, that's my point.

[Mira]

Harry talks about how he sees things in houses's future and all the seasons. Then he says the future seen with the sight is changeable. "No matter how strong the vision, how powerful the image gained with the Sight, the future was always mutable, always something that can be changed." - Storm Front
If you add "and all the other books" to your quote, that's my point.

But my point is he is using his Sight in Storm Front, he purposely opened his Wizard's Third
Eye to look at the house and he saw all of these things, he understands that he would.   In Small Favor it just happens on it's own, which is something that has never happened to Harry before, that is why he asks Luccio about it.  He doesn't know what he had just experienced is.

[g33k]

It seems like there's some sort of doubling-up of the term "Sight" here.

There is the "True Sight" of the Third Eye -- pierces veils, sees Things As They Are.  Everything seen this way is unforgettable, often agonizingly so.  As far as Harry knows, this is an intentional "turn-on / turn-off" phenomenon.

This thing from Small Favor (that Luccio calls "the Sight") seems to be something different.  From what she says, it is based around precognition, and so it's a chancy thing, subject to being changed by Free Will; it may or may not be subject to conscious control (it wasn't when it happened on the island), but doesn't have that overwhelming, soul-searing immediacy.
 
Thus I conclude it's two different phenomena, that both seem to go by the same name.

[Mira]

It seems like there's some sort of doubling-up of the term "Sight" here.

There is the "True Sight" of the Third Eye -- pierces veils, sees Things As They Are.  Everything seen this way is unforgettable, often agonizingly so.  As far as Harry knows, this is an intentional "turn-on / turn-off" phenomenon.

This thing from Small Favor (that Luccio calls "the Sight") seems to be something different.  From what she says, it is based around precognition, and so it's a chancy thing, subject to being changed by Free Will; it may or may not be subject to conscious control (it wasn't when it happened on the island), but doesn't have that overwhelming, soul-searing immediacy.
 
Thus I conclude it's two different phenomena, that both seem to go by the same name.

Exactly, and it is a bit confusing.  The big difference is with the Third Eye Wizard's Sight, a wizard has some control over using it, though no control of what he or she might see with it.  With the "Wizard's Sight" as described in Small Favor, there is no control, it just happens.

[Bad Alias]

The sight is one thing with three aspects. The two g33k pointed out and soul gazes. According to the Paranet Papers, all wizards have the sight, but not all who have the sight are wizards.

Storm Front is the only time Harry opens his sight and sees the future. This hasn't ever happened again.

[Mira]

The sight is one thing with three aspects. The two g33k pointed out and soul gazes. According to the Paranet Papers, all wizards have the sight, but not all who have the sight are wizards.

Yeah, all too true..

[g33k]

The sight is one thing with three aspects. The two g33k pointed out and soul gazes.

I'm willing to believe that a Soulgaze is related; but it isn't the same.

You can only have it once per person; it begins, happens, and ends.  If you don't avert your gaze, it is unavoidable.

It is something mutual, so even if the other party has no Sight, they still join in... just as if they had initiated it themselves, and did have the Sight.

These each seem to be different things.  I'm willing to believe the three are related, to believe they have some common causal feature.  But I'm not convinced of it; I don't think we have in-'Verse canon, or WoJ.

As you say -- it doesn't take a Wizard to have "the Sight," the true-seeing aspect of it.  But IIRC you do have to be a Wizard to do a Soulgaze; not just anyone with Sight can do that.

I'm unclear on the involuntary-precog thing... it's something that happens after a while of wizarding, but can it happen to others?  It's not quite Cassandra's Tears... but it's not entirely dissimilar, either.
 

[Bad Alias]

And when a wizard looks into a person's eyes, it's just another way of using the Sight.

Grave Peril - Chapter 35.

Jim:

You got to have some serious magical chops before a soulgaze is an issue–and yes, it’s one of the markers that the Council uses to see if you make the cut, though it’s far from the only one.  There are folks running around who can do it who aren’t on the Council, but not many of them.

I'm assuming that "on the Council" and wizard are synonymous here, but I could be wrong on that.

[g33k]

Grave Peril - Chapter 35.

TYVM!  Provisionally, then, I guess a Soulgaze is a specific form of "the Sight."  I say "provisional" because it's early enough in the series to be Early Installment Weirdness (and as I noted, Sight-vs-Soulgaze have some notable differences); but then, it hasn't AFAIK been explicitly contradicted, so I'll go with that.

I'm assuming that "on the Council" and wizard are synonymous here, but I could be wrong on that.

I think the Council tries to make them synonymous, but doesn't always succeed.  Kemmler wasn't on the council (AFAIK), but was "a wizard" by every measure except that neither party would accept the other.  I bet Elaine isn't the only wizard who intentionally failed her entry-exams.  Etc.