Elaine, Trojan Horse? "It was the knife..."

[Snark Knight]

With Lea and Maeve, I think it's the other way around, with Lea infecting Maeve. Pretty sure that's how Mab put it in Cold Days.

Probably so, but I concur with the reminders to be aware Mab is perfectly capable of being honestly mistaken. Look at how she misinterpreted Harry's motives and conduct in teaching Molly, or her confidence that she can remake Harry's personality being directly contradicted by Uriel's chosen seven words.

And, actually, the fact that Uriel chose "Lies. Mab cannot change who you are" instead of "Wrong. Mab cannot change who you are" might just be a big flashing warning sign that she's in the early stages of Nemfection herself.

I find the more convincing piece of evidence for Lea being the 'patient zero' in Winter her grudge against Bianca for "treacherous gifts". Hard for that to be about much other than the knife, especially given that the grudge was so big she considered killing Bianca a significant credit on Harry's account and still had hostility to spare for the Reds.

[morriswalters]

What makes you think that Mab was wrong about Harry and Molly?

[Mira]

The problem is unsolvable.  No matter who did what, once the Adversary was inside, it was inside.  This is a known risk.  It's why the Gatekeeper exists.  In terms of balance, it's one of the main themes of Cold Days.  The ending represents the first time since Summer Knight that Winter has all it's slots filled.

I  don't know what I think about Elaine.

Neither do I,  a reread of Summer Knight given what has happened since made me want to rethink her character.  There is the word of Jim that Harry didn't return to Justin's house right away, that is when he went to Lea or she him, that is also unclear, but I think it has been said a couple of weeks passed during that time.  What of Elaine, was she enthralled all of that time, if she was, was she being further instructed? 

Supposedly the Fae cannot lie, yet Uriel contends that Mab was lying to Harry about her control over him.  I have always argued and have interpreted what Harry says about the Fae, is while they cannot directly lie, they can twist the truth to their own purpose, that is why it is so dangerous to bargain with them, you may not be getting what you think you are getting because there is a lot of fine print..  Like Mab fixing Harry's back if he became her knight.   She did fix it, he became her knight but she didn't say she couldn't make him think it was broken again if he crossed her.   

[Snark Knight]

What makes you think that Mab was wrong about Harry and Molly?

Mostly that she thought he was aware Molly had the talent and was ignoring her to leave her room to dig herself into enough trouble to need saving, as a strategy to get her into his debt. Mab thinks Harry had a cunning selfish plan to mold a loyal retainer, when he was actually just ignorant that Molly was getting into magic until the last moment.

[morriswalters]

The only thing Mab got wrong was his foreknowledge of her magic.  And you have to wonder about the Id Harry and what he knew and when.

[Mira]

Mostly that she thought he was aware Molly had the talent and was ignoring her to leave her room to dig herself into enough trouble to need saving, as a strategy to get her into his debt. Mab thinks Harry had a cunning selfish plan to mold a loyal retainer, when he was actually just ignorant that Molly was getting into magic until the last moment.

   Mab isn't all knowing, if she were, she wouldn't have 1] gotten Maeve under control before she got infected. 2] Would have known as soon as she was infected when she could have done something about it.  She also would have figured out that even if it wasn't infected Lea having the Knife was a threat to her.. She sure would have known that the Knife was infected in the first place.  Mab is very clever and plays three dimensional chess well, but she isn't an all knowing goddess.

[morriswalters]

Don't confuse Mab handicaps at identifying nemfections with her ability to monitor Harry and those close to him.  The Adversary is a creature of stealth who has been attacking the wall with the outsiders for a period long enough to accumulate "f**ktons" of bone at the outer gates.

Mab has consistently shown that she can follow events on the mortal plane if she wishes.  And she has done so.  She watched the Denarians kidnap Marcone, she appears to Harry no matter where he is, as when she finds him on the streets of Chicago in Small Favor to name him her emissary.  She knew what was happening to Molly in Proven Guilty from Molly's first act of Black Magic.  She got to Harry quick enough to assure that his death wouldn't be the final act in Harry's life.  JB has even hinted at how it is done.

When Mab calls him out in Cold Days the event she points to, the one that started the ball rolling, is Harry's encounter with Molly in the tree house in Death Masks. She is fourteen and is about the time her magic  rears its head.  As a father it sends my creepy meter off the scale.  I wonder if deep down, Harry's subconscious didn't sense what was coming. And then, suddenly, Harry finds the coin and isn't there when Molly will need a guide.

[Mira]

« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2019, 06:53:14 PM »

   

Don't confuse Mab handicaps at identifying nemfections with her ability to monitor Harry and those close to him

Maybe she can keep up with Harry, but she totally failed with her daughter, which led to many of the problems her she is having now, and I am not talking about infections.

[Snark Knight]

The only thing Mab got wrong was his foreknowledge of her magic.  And you have to wonder about the Id Harry and what he knew and when.

Id Harry isn't all-knowing either - even if he intuited she had a talent, he had no way of knowing Molly would get involved with dark magic. Plus, he cares about survival, so a cunning plan to go out on an extreme risk of death to pull Molly out of immediate trouble and then a considerable ongoing risk of death to supervise her probation seems like a stretch for how he'd want to get an assistant.

[morriswalters]

Maybe she can keep up with Harry, but she totally failed with her daughter, which led to many of the problems her she is having now, and I am not talking about infections.

Daughters can be a handful, what can I say?

Id Harry isn't all-knowing either - even if he intuited she had a talent, he had no way of knowing Molly would get involved with dark magic. Plus, he cares about survival, so a cunning plan to go out on an extreme risk of death to pull Molly out of immediate trouble and then a considerable ongoing risk of death to supervise her probation seems like a stretch for how he'd want to get an assistant.

What else could have happened to her, given her talent?  But as with most things there is what he meant to do and what he did do.  And he did what Mab said, even if it wasn't his intention.

[Mira]

What else could have happened to her, given her talent?  But as with most things there is what he meant to do and what he did do.  And he did what Mab said, even if it wasn't his intention.

Twisted by Mab you mean, she played on Harry's over active guilt complex.  Molly may have engaged in hero worship, but Harry never encouraged it, given Charity's feeling towards him he kept a pretty quiet profile at Michael's house.   He had no way of knowing Molly had talent at all, he never knew about her mother until Molly's talent did come out.  Once it did, he recognized where she was heading and was the one who got her to turn herself in.   

[morriswalters]

You can't twist something if there isn't anything there to twist.  In Proven Guilty JB will open with a trial.  Where Harry will complain about the the Councils lack of outreach to young people coming into their power.  Yet Molly happens right under his nose.  And as I said, intentions don't matter, what matters are outcomes.  It's one thing to make decisions knowing that it will impact people, it is an altogether different thing to blunder into them like a bull in a china shop.  Which is pre changes Harry.

[Mira]

You can't twist something if there isn't anything there to twist.  In Proven Guilty JB will open with a trial.  Where Harry will complain about the the Councils lack of outreach to young people coming into their power.  Yet Molly happens right under his nose.  And as I said, intentions don't matter, what matters are outcomes.  It's one thing to make decisions knowing that it will impact people, it is an altogether different thing to blunder into them like a bull in a china shop.  Which is pre changes Harry.

Really?  Right under his nose?   First all, Harry isn't living at the Carpenter house, so no daily contact with Molly.  From the sound of it,  it might have even been a year or two since he saw her given the physical changes from pubescent young teen at thirteen or fourteen, to brick outhouse shaped sixteen year old..   When she calls from jail, the first thing she tells him is there has been a lot of trouble at home, mainly between her and her parents, as in Molly in full rebellion.   No confession about using black magic yet, Harry tries to do the right thing by returning her to her parents.  Harry had been avoiding Michael for a couple of years because of Lasciel.

 So, under Harry's nose?  No, nor did Molly say anything to him about her budding talent, it isn't until after she is rescued and safe at Father Forthills, that she begins to tell him about it, her abilty to do a veil for example, then instead of going to him for help and to ask questions, she choses to Barns&Noble for books on the subject, but they do not cover the Laws of Magic as set down by the White Council.   Molly then proceeds to apply her own moral judgement coupled with ignorance to go into the mind of her friend to stop his drug addiction..  Which sends her down the primrose warlock path and turns her friend's brain to mush. 

Harry again does the right thing as soon as she confesses to take her before the White Council, he then puts it all on the line for her, which is literally his head to save hers.

1] Harry hadn't seen Molly in a couple of years, he hadn't been to the Carpenter home, he hadn't talked to Michael.  2]  When Molly discovered her talent, she chose not to look up the only wizard she knew to ask questions, she went to Barns&Noble instead.  3]  Since Harry had no clue about Charity and the road she almost took, he would have no reason to be on the lookout for it showing up in her kids.  Since before it reared it's ugly head, Charity would not allow such a subject to be objective debated in her house, the dangers of unsupervised talent just wouldn't have come up.  Also until it almost cost her daughter her head, Charity wouldn't have allowed Harry to supervise Molly in the first place.   No, none of this takes place under his nose, nor is he the blame for what Molly chose to do. 

[g33k]

Really?  Right under his nose?

Pretty much, yep.

In the very city where Harry makes it clear to one and all (at least, one and all of the supernaturals) that this is HIS turf, and sorcerors & warlocks can expect to be confronted and killed.

With one of the families that Harry knows best, considers the father to be one of his closest friends, has seen the mother become involved because of his own investigations.

Harry made big claims about how the White Council "should" be finding these proto-warlocks before they go bad... and totally failed to notice the most-likely-for-him-to-notice young person becoming a warlock.

So yeah, that counts as "right under his nose."

Fortunately, he did get to her in time.  We can tell because she went through her whole Rag Lady phase -- a serious crucible of fire -- without breaking, without going warlock.

But it took a tip-off from the Gatekeeper, and involvement from a serious Winterfae player (almost certainly Mab) for Harry to get there...
 

[Kindler]

Harry's insistence that the WC should be finding these budding wizards/potential warlocks applies to an organization with access to way more resources than Harry will ever have.