How do Wizards make a living?

[dspringer1]

This is a murky subject for the books as the author has provided very little detail.  Some thoughts shared via the books include:

*  The White Council has vast financial resources and pays it staff a reasonable some.  Given the hints about how much Harry was paid as a regional warden, this sum probably allows a normal but not extravagant life for anyone working for the council. 

*  Some wizard abilities related to information probably allow some wizards to invest in the stock market or otherwise financially benefit from information. 

*  Clearly some wizards are selling items of power to other wizards/supernatural agents and can probably make a good living at this.   But multiple comments in the book imply that making items for other people is rather hard and requires a lot of skill. 

*  Some wizards are in the entertainment business (aka - old Morty) or otherwise "pretending" to be entertainers rather than real wizards.  But few could make a real living in this way. 

*  Some wizards can probably have a "normal" profession where they excel due to (in part) their wizard abilities.   And Ectomancer would probably make a good detective or a geomancer a good structural or mining engineer. 

However, it does seem like the study of magic is a very time consuming endeavor that makes "other careers" a challenge.  Add in the issues with technology and it seems like most wizards would have a tough time earning substantial income without engaging in questionable activities. 

Anybody else see things differently? 

There are probably only a few thousand real wizards of the white council in the world, so realistically there can only be less than a dozen wizards in most countries.   United States and European countries are probably the only exceptions.  That small a population allows for some really specialized niches. 

[Snark Knight]

*  Some wizard abilities related to information probably allow some wizards to invest in the stock market or otherwise financially benefit from information. 

You'd have to be careful not to overplay that, though, and make enough deliberate small mistakes to pass for lucky but not unnaturally so. Making a killing on a pattern of what looks like insider trading is going to draw law enforcement attention sooner or later.

[g33k]

Enumerating for convenience...

• The White Council has vast financial resources and pays it staff a reasonable some.  Given the hints about how much Harry was paid as a regional warden, this sum probably allows a normal but not extravagant life for anyone working for the council. 
• Some wizard abilities related to information probably allow some wizards to invest in the stock market or otherwise financially benefit from information. 
• Clearly some wizards are selling items of power to other wizards/supernatural agents and can probably make a good living at this.   But multiple comments in the book imply that making items for other people is rather hard and requires a lot of skill. 
• Some wizards are in the entertainment business (aka - old Morty) or otherwise "pretending" to be entertainers rather than real wizards.  But few could make a real living in this way. 
• Some wizards can probably have a "normal" profession where they excel due to (in part) their wizard abilities.   And Ectomancer would probably make a good detective or a geomancer a good structural or mining engineer.

I expect #2 is much of what causes #1.   I think it might even stray over into industrial / commercial espionage, on occasion, mysterious theft, or other "only if he can do magic" sorts of ill-gotten gains.  Breaking mortal law may be "in bad taste" or something, but doesn't violate the Laws of Magic, so... no (wizardly) penalty.  Other than wizards who find out, and may...  snub you, or something?  Speak disparagingly of how tawdry you behave?

The WC probably controls (or IS) at least one major investment house in each major financial center in the world.

I think #3 gets many wizards some capital, which they invest via the WC "investment engine" ... and probably do very well indeed.

I think very few WC wizards are "in entertainment," per #4.  Morty is a sub-wizard talent; poweful ectomancer, but that's just not enough... he has no non-ectomantic powers.

#5 seems possible, but honestly unlikely -- I think few wizards are willing to "work a normal job" like Harry is.  But since you mention Geomancy... that'd be great for finding gold, or gems.  Aquamancy might find wrecked ships, a few of which will have treasure, and many of which will have other value.  Etc.

Mostly, I expect wizards do the #1 / #2 / #3 cycle:  Work for the WC, or make items for the WC for "pay," and invest with the WC "financial wizards;" they're probably comfortably well-off after not very long... well-to-do shortly thereafter, and heading rapidly toward filthy rich, if they care to keep investing their time.

The WC is acting as their BANK.  You know banks... they're a wealth-making engine!  The WC probably does gloriously-well, as an institution, just handling investments for all their members.

[Bad Alias]

I imagine most wizards don't need to work.

Before mechanization of everything, a wizard would probably have a fantastic competitive edge in most fields. By not existing at a subsistence level, they would have been afforded the opportunity to invest in relatively safe ways. After 100 years of this, they wouldn't need to work, so I imagine most older wizards don't need to work.

A lot of jobs would still be very competitive for a wizard. I imagine a wizard who knows some Cobbs could make a living by "being" a cobbler without doing much. They might even be able to profit without doing anything but setting up a business: somebody to take payment and shoes and return said shoes during business hours, somebody to manage the books and bills. This could apply to every job that fairies helped with in any fairy tale. Toot was a fairy who did farm work. Most of these fairies situations would probably be similar to the Cobbs who were desperate for work. Industrialization/mechanization put many fairies out of work.

I imagine being a courier would have been very profitable before the steam engine or even air travel. Smuggling would still be pretty profitable.

Many wizards probably leave a lot of their wealth to former apprentices. Most of their family is likely so distantly related that they would rather leave things to someone who knows their name. Therefore, many wizards are probably wealthy from inherited wealth.

A lot of wizards probably have an opportunity like Harry in Skin Game to make a fantastic amount of money relatively early on in life, and most of the time it wouldn't be very dangerous or morally questionable.

Eb is a farmer. I don't know if he's a professional farmer, or a hobbyist.

I think a better formulation of your question might be "how do young wizards make a living?"

Combat, stealth, or illusion oriented wizards could make a good deal of money by robbing/burgling drug dealers. Information oriented wizards could definitely make a lot of money investing or gambling. That's especially true if the information is from the future.

Ulsharavas stated Harry could have other careers, focus on his magical studies, use his "skills for material gain and lining in wealth," so I imagine there is a broad spectrum of activities that any wizard could do to easily make a living.

[Regenbogen]

Well, Harry did use magic for his PI jobs.
As stated before, Eb is a farmer.
I can imagine wizards being teachers, various consultants, craftsmen, psychologists, even firefighters or priests  and several other professions where using technology can be avoided.
And there is no need to use magic constantly in daily live.

I don't think they do not work at all. At least the young ones (up to 60, 70, 80 years old perhaps). I mean, they seem to live among non-magical people. It would be in their interest not to draw attention to themselves by hanging out in their labs all day wearing stained robes, cackling over bubbling cauldrons and drawing circles everywhere.
Harry appears to be the only one or at least one of the few, who openly admits that he is a wizard.

I've read about certain wizards in London's  police.

[dspringer1]

I think the benefit of compound interest can be seriously oversold - at least as soemthing that provides real benefit to most wizards.   

It requires several elements to be successful and all are problematic for wizards.

1)  The person must first have wealth before they can invest wealth.  Few people have the personality to sock away substantial resources today, so I cannot imagine the wizard population is filled with a hoard of atypical savers.   So a poor or even middle class wizard is not going to be able to save enough money to create a small fortune through compound interest.

2) You must have something to invest "in".  Stock or bond markets really did not exist before the 1600s and before that investments were typically limited to business you were actively enraged in or in land ownership.  Hands on ownership was the norm really until the mid-late 1800s. So opportunities for absentee investments were pretty limited and few wizards would get rich on hands on small businesses.

3) Investing wisely requires real skill.   You are most successful when you understand the business and change your business strategy as the world changes.   Few wizards would spend the significant amount of time required to understand the market -- and spend even more time each year to keep that understanding current.  Add into this the fact that most wealth creation came from technology -- and wizards are horrible with technology.  They are also unlikely to spot new trends in technology or recognize when a previously successful technology is no longer the wise investment. 

Keep in mind we had multiple very serious recessions, major technology shifts, and other disruptions that could easily have destroyed all a wizard's investments if not managed correctly.  And while it is true the wizard could have invested in very safe government bonds, the reality is that few government bonds were really safe prior to the 20th century (exception - Bank of England) and I am sure WWII also contributed to a lot of bad debt.  Even if your bonds paid off, the safe ones rarely earned much after accounting for inflation.  Such investments protected your fortune, they rarely "made" your fortune. 

4) The wizard is not alone in using magic or investing in the long term.   There are many supernatural races who are both long lived, have access to magic, perhaps have some ability to see the future, and would choose to invest.  The White Council's own investments are a perfect example.   What this means is that the wizard cannot rely upon magic to provide a major advantage, at least once investments become substantial.  There is just too much competition who can play the same game. 

[Belial666]

Anybody else see things differently?

1) Draw gold / precious stones out of the ground with geomancy.
2) Transmute coal into diamonds.
3) Affect horse/dog races with mind magic on the animals.
4) Affect sports events with good luck/bad luck spells.
5) Rob ATMs with invisibility and hexing.

Those are just the small stuff. Given a good ritual, a wizard could affect international companies or even countries. Most mass-produced goods should be thaumaturgically near-identical, company premises could be affected Little Chicago style, and businesses have no thresholds to protect them.

[Bad Alias]

I think the benefit of compound interest can be seriously oversold.

Agreed, but mostly it's oversold by Harry who is likely bad at money^tm, thinks of all investment as simple compound interest, and viewing things from his perspective as someone born in the 70's.

1)  The person must first have wealth before they can invest wealth.  ...   So a ... middle class wizard is not going to be able to save enough money to create a small fortune through compound interest.

A wizard would have major advantages in generating the initial wealth. Historically, the middle class have been people who were relatively wealthy, i.e., not peasants, but not nobility. Prosperous farmers, skilled tradesmen, and merchants. Recently, middle class has come to mean people who are nether poor nor super wealthy, relatively. Most middle class people retire; they literally become independently wealthy. So middle class people would have always had the opportunity to gain financial independence.

2) investments were typically limited to ... in land ownership.

Which would probably have made most wizards extremely wealthy if they had invested in farmland outside of most major cities and didn't sell it off immediately as the population has exploded over the last two centuries.

3) Investing wisely requires real skill.   You are most successful when you understand the business and change your business strategy as the world changes.   Few wizards would spend the significant amount of time required to understand the market -- and spend even more time each year to keep that understanding current.

I'm sure most wizards have connections to wealth management, mostly through the White Council.

Add into this the fact that most wealth creation came from technology -- and wizards are horrible with technology.

It's only post WWII that the "side effect" of magic was interference with technology.

There is just too much competition who can play the same game [using magic to aid in wealth management].

I disagree. There isn't too much competition in the real world markets for people who simply want to protect their wealth, i.e., at least maintain their net worth relative to inflation.

[dspringer1]

Counterpoint

A wizard would have major advantages in generating the initial wealth.

I agree that wizards can be wealthy, but there is nothing automatic about wealth generation.  Wizards must spend an enormous amount of time learning magic.  They need a lot of exotic and hard to get ingredients for potions and item creation.  They have severe problems with technology.   So unless they have some specialty of magic that is particularly useful for income generation, it is not likely they will become wealthy or even well off.   Their focus is on their magic, leaving little time or attention for wealth creation.   Serious wealth creation does take time and focus. 

And while magic item creation can be lucrative, that is a skill that only develops late in life.  Harry is exceptional in magic item creation (per WOJ) and is 40+ years old and he still cannot create items of power that last for any length of time (away from him) or that can easily be used by others.  I suspect most wizards cannot make such items until they are well over a hundred. 

2) investments were typically limited to ... in land ownership.

Which would probably have made most wizards extremely wealthy if they had invested in farmland outside of most major cities and didn't sell it off immediately as the population has exploded over the last two centuries.

Yes a wizard who waited until 2019 and sold his property in London would make a fortune if he bought it in 1700.  But if he had sold it in 1730 I doubt he would have done more than break even.  And wizards had to be careful about living too long in any one place, so few would have kept property in major cities for centuries.   The vast majority of individual wizards holdings were no doubt in the country and unlikely to gain great value.   Most wizards valued obscurity after all. 

The major land owners were nobility - and most of them were impoverished when the modern age came about.   

I'm sure most wizards have connections to wealth management, mostly through the White Council.

Why would you assume that?  The company I work for does not give me insider investment advice nor carefully manage my investments.  I am sure the White Council manages its own investments and uses them to benefit all the wizards.  That it is the purpose of those investments.  They are not going to manage the personal investments of individual wizards -- nor would most wizards give the council that level of control over their personal investments.  The wizards are fiercely independent. 

Add into this the fact that most wealth creation came from technology -- and wizards are horrible with technology.

It's only post WWII that the "side effect" of magic was interference with technology.

The vulnerability to tech began much earlier than WW II.  It was certainly in place when trains were first created and that was early late 1700s/early 1800s. 

There is just too much competition who can play the same game [using magic to aid in wealth management].

I disagree. There isn't too much competition in the real world markets for people who simply want to protect their wealth, i.e., at least maintain their net worth relative to inflation.

Ok I agree with this comment.   My point from the beginning was that investments aided by magic were not going to be an easy source of wealth generation.  But once that wealth was created, a wizard focused on managing investments could probably keep from loosing that wealth in the market. 

[Bad Alias]

I agree that wizards can be wealthy, but there is nothing automatic about wealth generation.

See my comment from October 18 as to how there are many ways for wizards to become wealthy. I'm not saying that it would be automatic; just that over a normal lifetime or two, a wizard should be able to figure out a way to become independently to indecently wealthy and maintain that level of wealth. Also, it only takes one "big score" for someone to be wealthy.

Now, I'm not saying that every wizard is going to be super wealthy or even just wealthy. I am saying that if a wizard set out to be independently wealthy, they would have a lot of opportunities and shouldn't have too much trouble. Also, if they are making enough money at whatever they are doing to feed themselves to put money aside, they will eventually be wealthy. Sure, there are going to be some wizards who invest their entire fortune in some boondoggle and go broke. Most of those wizards would probably diversify the second (or third) time around. Generally speaking, older people have more wealth than younger people. I imagine that would be even more true for wizards.

Yes a wizard who waited until 2019 and sold his property in London would make a fortune if he bought it in 1700.  But if he had sold it in 1730 I doubt he would have done more than break even.  And wizards had to be careful about living too long in any one place, so few would have kept property in major cities for centuries.   The vast majority of individual wizards holdings were no doubt in the country and unlikely to gain great value.   Most wizards valued obscurity after all. 

The major land owners were nobility - and most of them were impoverished when the modern age came about.

They wouldn't have to wait that long. The closer land is to a population center, the more valuable it is. Per woj, most wizards didn't like to travel to far. You stated they need rare and difficult to obtain items. That means they need to be located reasonably close to population centers or already be wealthy enough to have factors travel for them. So a wizard was likely to have their home outside of town far enough to be left alone, but close enough to go to town for supplies. As populations grew drastically in the 1800's then absolutely exploded in the 1900's, a wizard could have made a fortune by selling their land every 50 years or so to maintain their obscurity. Most wizards alive were born either in the modern era or the early modern era.

This could be true of Ebeneezer, one of the most senior wizards. He did live in Scotland. He came to the New World by the time of the French and Indian War. He ended up in Missouri living close enough to town to drive in for supplies.

Here are some population growth graphics: https://www.insider.com/graphics-showing-population-change-world-2019-7#10-this-graph-shows-how-the-worlds-population-is-estimated-to-hit-10-billion-in-2056-according-to-the-un-population-division-10.

Why would you assume that?

I assume most have access to wealth management for several reasons. One being Harry stating that most older wizards have access to a good deal of wealth. The Paranet Papers state that many wizards are closer to Peabody's bureaumancy than combat magic. Rashid states that taking care of paperwork is a big favor for Harry.

The vulnerability to tech began much earlier than WW II.  It was certainly in place when trains were first created and that was early late 1700s/early 1800s.

According to Jim Butcher, "Magic wasn't always screwing up post-WW2 tech. Before WW2 magic had other effects. It sorta changes slowly over time, and about every 3 centuries it rolls over into something else. At one time, instead of magic making machines flip out it made cream go bad. Before that magic made weird moles on your skin and fire would burn slightly different colors when you were around it."

https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Magic. That's why I assume that the change happened around WW2. (Also, I think it has been stated explicitly somewhere). It certainly wasn't screwing up post WW2 technology before WW2. It could be that the effect is "technology from the past 50 years," but we haven't seen any evidence that technology from the 50's is now immune from this effect.

My point from the beginning was that investments aided by magic were not going to be an easy source of wealth generation.

I don't think it would be easy for most wizards, but that it would be easy/not terribly difficult for a subset of wizards. My point was just different ways that different wizards could make a fortune or just a nest egg large enough to allow them to be idle after 50-100 years.

[toodeep]

I can't help but wonder how a mind wizard might be able to set up a heck of a business as a psychiatrist/councilor.  It is only black magic to use mind magic if it is uninvited (i.e. invade).  If a wizard has permission to alter your mind, it is technically legal, though it might still have negative effects on your sanity.  I'm just wondering if they could advertise a 100% successful smoking prevention counseling.  The fact that the councilor asks for permission to use magic to alter your mind would be laughed at and approved by most people who don't believe in magic...

[Bad Alias]

It is only black magic to use mind magic if it is uninvited (i.e. invade).  If a wizard has permission to alter your mind, it is technically legal.

The treatments that the young wardens got in Turn Coat are probably examples of legal uses of mind magic. Also what Molly does when she senses peoples emotions. What Molly does would be useful for counseling or negotiating.

[toodeep]

The treatments that the young wardens got in Turn Coat are probably examples of legal uses of mind magic. Also what Molly does when she senses peoples emotions. What Molly does would be useful for counseling or negotiating.

Agreed about Molly's abilities being good for counseling.  She might be a great lawyer if she can easily (noninvasively) read whether someone is lying, etc.  Though in both cases knowing the truth or knowing how someone feels doesn't always help unless you know how and why they are trying to rationalize things, and what the root cause of something is.  Knowing your patient is lying doesn't necessarily help you treat them.

What I was talking about was more like smoking cessation or something of that ilk where with their permission you go in and put in a magical block making it impossible to smoke, etc.  Or maybe using magic to more reliably allow them to recall something from the past, etc.

[Kindler]

If I was a wizard in the DV, I would be one of the greatest criminals the world has ever seen.

Even just knowing how to navigate the Ways would be absolutely priceless. National borders become utterly meaningless when you can pop from Chicago to Edinburgh in a half hour. I could smuggle anything I wanted, steal whatever I wanted, and flee from the police at a moment's notice.

I wouldn't be an assassin or anything, but no bank vault would be safe from me.

[Bad Alias]

@Kindler: Right? I think I'd focus on ripping off drug dealers' cash houses. It would probably be like stealing candy from a baby. Use some supernatural means of finding cash houses. Tracking money you spend on drugs, having dew drop faeries find them, and probably a billion other ways. Use a veil to get in, use a sleep spell to put everyone to sleep, if the electronic devices haven't been fried already, hex them, then pack up the cash, and go. Rinse and repeat until you biggest money problem is laundering the money into the legitimate financial system.

Theoretically, you should be fine reporting the source of your income as theft because the government "can't" use that information against you, but word on the street is that the information gets to the law enforcement branches of the government. I imagine that you could just come right out and say that you got the money through wizardry.

The higher up any food chain you go, the more likely you are to run into someone who knows about the supernatural who can do something about it. We don't really know how high up in any organization you have to go up before they become wise to the supernatural, but it wouldn't shock me if most national organizations didn't know about the supernatural. It would shock me if most national orgs that have been around for some time didn't, at the very top levels, know about it. The head of the Chicago mob, at least one organization in the federal government, and one of about 400 Cook County judges all know about the supernatural. The Cubs are willing to pay a lot of money to get rid of a curse, so they probably know.