Author Topic: WAG: Mirror! Mirror!  (Read 22597 times)

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: WAG: Mirror! Mirror!
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2019, 01:46:07 AM »
I doubt it'll happen, but I think it would be pretty dope to see inside the head of "Evil" Harry (who I don't think will be super evil, just kind of a "I do what MUST BE DONE" type of character).

Buddying up with Mavra and serial-killing your own alternate selves just to leave bodies to fake your own death sounds a few steps beyond dark grey.

Offline 123Chikadee

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Re: WAG: Mirror! Mirror!
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2019, 10:32:37 PM »
@Kindler: Oh this. That idea of Vampire Consortium is pretty cool. Yeah, I thought that it is a good extrapolation. I can also see him team up with Marcone by going down that line. Though that is pretty far from what Snark Knight's pointed out. I know Harry could shift from dark grey to ax crazy but, I dunno, the latter just doesn't appeal to me that much.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: WAG: Mirror! Mirror!
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2019, 02:16:10 AM »
I know Harry could shift from dark grey to ax crazy but, I dunno, the latter just doesn't appeal to me that much.

Prime Harry isn't even particularly dark grey, compared to similar series like Alex Verus.

I expect Mirror Harry to be more dark grey than ax crazy - doing objectively terrible things, but mostly because his options have collapsed to either do terrible things or die.

Mirror Marcone, by the way, was mentioned in WOJ as also interestingly different. If he had to take on more of the heavy lifting of stopping the Denarians in DM because Mirror Harry wasn't on that case, I wonder if that might have been the foundation of a redemption arc.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: WAG: Mirror! Mirror!
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2019, 04:33:19 AM »
I was looking for the WoJ Snark Knight was referencing. Figured I'd share it, everything else pertinent to this thread I found, and some stuff about Marcone that could be pertinent to who Marcone will be in Mirror, Mirror.

Quote
John Marcone is not his real name. Is that going to be significant?
Sure is if somebody tries to cast a spell at him using the name John Marcone! That would be a big deal. We’ll have to see how that works out. Actually the character that’s really interesting is the Mirror Mirror universe Marcone, and we’ll get to him in a few books.

Quote
The thing about Marcone is, him doing his job as an Outfit boss, he would be considered kind of a very ideal leader, for much of world history, at least much of Western history. An Outfit boss and a medieval baron, there’s a very close correlation between those two guys’ jobs.

Marcone is a real fun character to write, because the problem with Marcone is that he’s too intelligent. Once you stop to think about things for a while, and really stop to analyze things, I think most people realize that the smart thing to do, at least in the long term, in almost every situation is also the morally right thing to do. Because in the long term, it benefits you more to do the morally right thing than to do the selfish thing. Almost every time. And it’s folks that are too short-sighted to understand that who you see running around doing a lot of the selfish stuff. And Marcone, unfortunately, he’s smart enough to realize, “The smartest thing for me to do is be an upstanding citizen. (Jim mimes looking around and sighing.) Here’s my criminal empire. I guess it’s a little late for that. And somebody has to run the crime. So I guess that’s me.”

So Marcone is an interesting character in my head, but he’s born in the wrong time. If he’d been born five hundred years earlier, he’d be an ideal leadership-type. They’d have pegged him for officer school, five hundred years before.

Quote
Actually, one of the books that’s going to be upcoming is — I’m just going to go for total originality and call it Mirror Mirror and stick Harry in a parallel universe where he made one choice differently when he was much younger and show the fallout from that choice in that universe as it’s going. That’s going to be extremely fun story.

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I’m writing an alternate universe story and I’m not even going to bother… Of course I’m stealing it from Star Trek.  There’s going to be goatees and eye patches and everything.  Just like in the regular universe only (sounds like sluttier), it’s a Mirror Mirror story.   But that’s going to be a fun because that’s going to be… How will the world be different if Harry had made one choice differently.
Audience:  Goateed like Harry’s subconscious?
Jim:  It’s going to be a different character because it’s going to be Dresden as he would have been if he made one choice differently, and the fallout from that effect on his life.  *unintelligible comment from audience*  Yah this guy will have a hat.
In this case it will be the big decision at the end of Grave Peril.

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Q:  Jim’s favorite recurring villain?
A:  Marcone, when he’s being a villain

Quote
John Marcone has been on the fence for most of the series. Sometimes he does the right thing, sometimes the wrong. Will there be a book where he goes full good guy or bad guy?
I think it’s safe to say that Harry will never get a clear read on Marcone. Sharks aren’t good or evil. They’re /sharks/.
I say this, of course, only because I miss the recently departed Shark Week.
Per Priscellie Jim told her at ComicCon:
Hendricks’ first name is Nathan
@BillyYank Marcone was a Marine. :)

Quote
[Marcone's name] won’t factor in later because nobody’s getting it. Marcone is, as far as this series is concernd he is the most magic-savvy mortal that is running around these days and he is covering his bases and is very good at it. Marcone is the guy who has read the Evil Overlord List and would roll his eyes at why anybody would do such a thing.

@Kindler: It's on Netflix if you're interested in watching that episode.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: WAG: Mirror! Mirror!
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2019, 08:32:39 PM »
Assuming that you know the plot of Mirror, Mirror.  The question you need to ask yourself is who has the Spock role?  Marcone would fit, at least after a fashion.

Offline Firestarter

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Re: WAG: Mirror! Mirror!
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2019, 09:28:14 AM »
One choice that most impacted the series...

Not getting Susan away from Bianca in time. That's basically it. All Harry ever had to do is not show Susan the invitation and not leave them out where she could get to them.

War averted, let's go back to the simmering cold war until Red Court is ready to try and wipe White council off the Earth
... hear me roar ;)

Offline Kindler

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Re: WAG: Mirror! Mirror!
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2019, 04:37:11 PM »
One choice that most impacted the series...

Not getting Susan away from Bianca in time. That's basically it. All Harry ever had to do is not show Susan the invitation and not leave them out where she could get to them.

War averted, let's go back to the simmering cold war until Red Court is ready to try and wipe White council off the Earth

My personal WAG is that the specific decision is to not misuse Amoracchius during the graveyard scene with Lea. She never gets it, and doesn't trade it to Bianca for the Athame. Couple of options can happen from then on. Either:
1. Harry gets taken by Lea for dog duty. He's not around, and Susan is found out and turned during the party. Thomas and Justine may or may not be killed. The Nightmare isn't stopped, or is finally hunted down by Michael, instead. The war doesn't get kicked off too early, and the Reds gear up for a decapitating strike, which happens years later. Lea may or may not still get the Athame; she may trade something else for it (if she even goes to the party), or simply can't accept it without an equal trade (considering that it took Amoracchius to make it a square deal, I think odds are good she simply doesn't have anything big enough to trade for it). She's never Infected (at least not then), nor is Maeve. Aurora is still Infected, though.
Harry's either turned back into a human by Lea after the danger has passed, or Harry figures out a new deal to get back out of it (and, of course, somehow communicates his terms to Lea). I do believe that Lea didn't intend to keep him as a hound permanently, anyway, and take her at her word when she said it would have been for his own good. So I assume that Harry would turn back sometime before Summer Knight. Except this time, the news about Susan isn't that she's alive and half-turned, it's that she's dead or fully turned. This means a couple of things:
A. Susan and Harry never conceive Maggie.
B. Harry's depression is potentially much worse around Summer Knight.
C. Susan cannot be sacrificed at Chicken Pizza to kill the Red Court, so they remain a significant player regardless of anything else that happens.
Similarly, there's no Red Court side plot activity from Death Masks onward, not until around Death Masks. At that point, the Reds attack, and it's devastating. The Darkhallow may or may not have been pulled off (I lean toward not). But the attack on the Wardens happens, except this time they're totally unprepared for it. Rather than losing half or three-quarters of the Wardens, the Reds manage to take down just about all of them. At this point, Peabody's manipulations are employed to even greater effect, and he's able to leak the location of the Senior Council and organize an effective assault. SC members are killed, maybe all of them.
It's also worth noting that, without the Red Court assault on Archangel, Eb isn't on the Senior Council at this point, because Simon's still there. So Ebenezer winds up on the Senior Council then, along with wizards like Klaus the Toymaker, simply because they're the most senior wizards left.
The war goes really badly.

2. He manages to weasel out of the deal some other way. Michael has Amoracchius handy during Bianca's ball. It changes the outcome of events so thoroughly that Dresden, Susan, Thomas, and Justine all make it out alive! Everything seems jim freaking dandy.
Except the Nightmare remains active, and Bianca's gone full cuckoo bird. She manages to get Susan anyway, through the Nightmare. Rather than turn her, Susan is simply killed, days or even weeks or months later. Harry is unable to pin the murder on Bianca, but attempts to resolve things through the Accords anyway. It fails. Harry becomes totally disenchanted (heh) with the supernatural world as a result, and takes a darker turn. He murders Bianca for revenge. He starts picking off Reds any chance he gets.
The White Council catches wind of it, and starts trying to nail him for breaking the Accords. Harry starts rules lawyering them. He manages (cuz, again, he's much less scrupulous than current Harry) to start making real money, and just starts paying weregilds for each dead vampire (or something similar).
But it becomes an open secret that Harry is fighting a guerrilla war against the Reds. So he becomes a major target, just like normal, except now the White Council hangs him out to dry much more thoroughly than they've tried to in the past. Morgan in particular goes out of his way to make Harry's life as hard as possible. He's not branded a warlock because he's technically not breaking the Laws of Magic, but he's instigating conflicts with the Reds.
Harry hates the Red Court so much that he starts taking advice from Mavra, who never got into a confrontation with him at Bianca's party since Michael was Armed. Mavra's playing her own power game, trying to screw with the Reds (and possibly spread Infection amongst them). In exchange for her help, Harry gets her the Word of Kemmler much earlier, and they manage to avoid the Darkhallow conflict completely. So the Heirs of Kemmler are still running around. In fact, Marcone might have found out about the Word from Bony Tony, and recognized the danger it presented. So the conflict around the Word may have been between Marcone and Harry/Mavra.
Meanwhile, the Reds plan their attack on the White Council, and it's as devastating as I hypothesize above. Part of Harry's problems are solved, because what's left of the White Council doesn't have time to worry about him. Plus, you know, he's been killing Reds for a while anyway, so they kinda look the other way while he continues his thing. But Harry's made so many enemies by this point that it doesn't ultimately make a difference, and he's hunted by various power players (mostly working for Nemesis). That leads Harry to where he is at the start of Mirror, Mirror.

Various changes to the timeline I predict:
1. Molly is either dead, or is not the Winter Lady. I assume she was killed by the White Council.
2. Murphy and Harry never learned to really trust one another. The Summer Knight Wal-Mart conversation never happened. In fact, Harry might well be a wanted criminal.
3. Marcone was left to defend his territory from the Reds. What he saw during the ongoing conflict changed him. He probably didn't transition to legitimate businesses, but I can totally picture him mobilizing his resources to fight monsters, since nobody else is doing it. We kinda see that in Even Hand and the Chicago Alliance meeting anyway, except Mirror Marcone isn't playing power games, he's operating a true, genuine, and honest protection racket.
4. Thomas was killed, and Mirror Harry may never have found out about their relationship. He either dies during Grave Peril, or Blood Rites (BR death is a possibility because Murphy may not have been helping Harry, if the events of that book even happened in that universe). Justine's fate probably matches Thomas's—but either way, I don't see them having a baby.
5. Morgan is still alive, almost without a doubt. He's running his own guerrilla war against the Reds with whatever resources he's got, and he's better at it than Harry. Still hates Harry, though.
6. Eb is probably alive. He might be leading what's left of the White Council if the Merlin bit the dust. Regardless (and this may or may not matter), Peabody didn't have eight years to dose him with mind controlling ink. So Eb's mind may have never been screwed with.
7. Michael might have been killed during Death Masks.
8. Butters is dead if the fight for the Word happens.
9. The Alphas are still around, but a bit different, depending on what Harry does with them. It's possible they're more aggressive in their vigilante activity, and it's also possible they're not allied with Harry at all.
10. Harry never gets Mouse. :( In fact, there might be more evil Mouses (Mice?) running around, like in Zoo Day. Mouse might be one of them.
11. Maeve may or may not be Infected, it's up in the air. Depends on what happened with Lea, and whether or not she gets Infected. Regardless, she's still alive, I think. If she's dead, then Sarissa is the Winter Lady.
12. Lots of others I can speculate about, but you get the idea.

So that's a pretty big WAG. In fact, it's like thirty separate big WAGs rolled into one. But I think that the crux of the Mirrorverse's differences boils down to: "This is what the world would be like if Harry's primary motivation for over a decade was fueled entirely by hatred and revenge instead of sadness and regret." Because, personally, I can see a revenge-focused Dresden losing his desire to defend those who can't defend themselves. We see bits of it come out a few times, like the ghoul attack at Camp Kaboom, or burning Bianca's mansion in Grave Peril. If he was in that state too much, well... things could be a lot different.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: WAG: Mirror! Mirror!
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2019, 01:22:42 AM »
Jim has stated that the decision takes place towards/at the end of Grave Peril, so I imagine the graveyard scene is much too early.

Offline 123Chikadee

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Re: WAG: Mirror! Mirror!
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2019, 10:25:04 PM »
@Bad Alias: I think Butcher did it that way so that it wouldn't get too crazy with the diverging points, doubly so since this book sets up so much.
@Kindler: I do like this one a lot. There's a lot that can still happen even if the diverging point is later, especially the stuff with Susan and Harry.
I still go by my WAG where Harry's three important words are 'Take me instead'.
A: Yup Maggie doesn't exist in MirrorVerse.
B: Oh yeah, though I could still see his friends, especially Michael helping him through it.
C: Agreed. If they want to defeat the Red Court, it'll be through another way.
Yeah, I think Prime!Harry is going to see just how his actions against the Red Court was actually good thing no matter what anyone says. I'm not sure if Death Masks even happens really, since they aren't at war but still gathering their power/forces/etc. I can't remember who on here said it, but they posited that the Reds and Whites could team up, which I think is brilliant. It wouldn't be a perfect system, but hey it would work for the time being. I also don't think the majority of Dead Beat wouldn't happen, but I could be totally wrong on that score.
Whenever the Reds do attack, they'd wreck the White Council so that only a few survive. I'd say Eb, Morgan, Luccio, The Merlin, and hopefully Carlos. B/c if Carlos isn't alive then what's the point? Since this would be the case, they really don't have the man power to stop Mirror!Harry from doing anything really.
I love the idea of Harry in a guerilla warfare against the Reds, it makes so much sense to me. I'd still like the idea that he's the half-turned one and not Susan, who's probably dead or as good as. The surviving White Council can't disagree with Harry too much and maybe Harry and Morgan team up on occasion despite hating each other.
1. Def not Winter Lady, but I like to think she's alive, just not Harry's biggest fan. Maybe even Morgan's apprentice?
2. Oh yeah and it's mutual no trusting. I like the idea that Mirror!Murphy is a scary vigilante b/c she doesn't feel safe anymore and wants to kill monsters that the law can't touch.
3. Agreed. Though I do like the idea of Mirror!Marcone and Mirror!Harry working together but also rival/friends. Something that would make Prime!Harry just be flabbergasted at.
4. Hm. I don't want either Justine or Thomas to die. The former is mostly b/c it feels too much like fridge'ing for my tastes. Though logically, she probably would be gone. I'd say Thomas could survive but it'd be by the skin of his teeth. I'm still pulling for a White King!Thomas, if only so he can protect his little sister Inari from their father, though she'd become full vamp here. Thomas would be in competition with Lara here. I don't think he'd be as willing to help people due to not having a bond with Harry. Mirror!Harry wouldn't know they're brothers and would hate him.
5.Yes. Just more Morgan please.
6. Yeah, I could see Eb being the leader and he'd be the reason why the Council is even still around. I'd love the irony of Peabody being dead though.
7. I'm not sure when Michael would die, but yeah at some point he would die. I think he'd act like an anchor for Mirror!Harry and that is death is what really breaks Harry to do his more bad things. It's also why Molly isn't Harry's fan and is apprenticed to someone else.
8. If Butters is alive it's b/c Murphy saved him. I'd like to see a more Mad Scientist type of Butters.
9. Yeah, they'd be much more aggressive. Maybe they're more of Murphy's friends then Harry's. Which is probably true in general.
10. Yeah, maybe the whole litter? He might not even have Mister anymore depending on how bad things are. Though he'd do his damnedest to hold onto to Bob.
11. I think she'd still be infected but alive. Lea is infected and still trying to get at Harry, though she might have less success with it, since having Mirror!Harry also be the Winter Knight would be kinda boring.
12. Oh true that.
Oh yeah, for sure. Harry on a vengeance kick is pretty no holds barred. I don't think he'd get off it anytime soon too. Though this scenario also has a much bigger stakes in terms of survival, so he'd also be pretty ruthless too. It'd explain his team up with Mavra at least.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: WAG: Mirror! Mirror!
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2019, 09:09:38 PM »
Bony Tony would probably still be trying to sell the Word of Kemmler, so !Harry would likely be involved with the Heirs of Kemmler, even if it was just because he was after power. That would probably still lead to !Harry meeting Necro-Bob. !Harry four years after starting down the wrong path might keep Necro-Bob around. So I think !Harry will be a necromancer. I also think that !Harry will be a necromancer because Jim seems really excited by the idea when talking about if Harry didn't make his deal with Mab.

I can also see !Harry having taken Lasciel's coin and either working much more with the shadow or just taking the coin up. He could have taken up the coin and lost it to Liverspots and then become a necromancer.

I think Michael is going to be dead because Harry has saved his life twice by getting involved in Michael's business.

I think Molly wouldn't have idolized !Harry if he wasn't around, so she her trajectory would be totally different. I just don't know how.

If !Harry was consumed by vengeance, he may have taken Mab up on her offer of becoming Winter Knight. (If Mab even collects !Harry's debt from Lea).

!Harry may have still saved Thomas, or !Harry's choice may have taken place after Thomas got out. They may still have a relationship. Instead of Harry being a good influence on Thomas, they might be a bad influence on each other with !Harry being the much darker of the two.

One way or another, I don't think Lara would be in charge of the White Court. Either !Harry wouldn't have interfered because Thomas is dead, or !Harry wouldn't pass up the opportunity to have Thomas in charge of the White Court, so he kills Lara pretty soon thereafter. So I don't think White Night would have happened at all. I also doubt any of the events after Blood Rites would play out at all because all of their setups wouldn't have happened.

Small Favor doesn't happen because Marcone isn't in the accords. Turn Coat doesn't happen because Luccio is either dead or never showed up in Dead Beat to be switched into a younger body that could be mind controlled. Even if that all happens anyway, Morgan is unlikely to go to !Harry for help, and !Harry is even less likely to help him out instead of just murdering him or selling him. Changes doesn't happen because there is no Maggie. Harry's not dead, so Ghost Story doesn't happen. Cold Days doesn't happen because !Harry's not the Warden because he never went to Demonreach in Small Favor and then claimed the island in Turn Coat. Skin Game may or may not have happened.

A Winter Knight Denarian necromancer !Harry is a possibility.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: WAG: Mirror! Mirror!
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2019, 10:54:16 PM »
If you consider that the last choice he makes in Grave Peril is to not leave Susan to the Vampires, then you have the basis of a redemption story.  Not only guilt for not keeping Susan from being bitten, but giving her up to the Reds as well.

No war with the Reds. Mab chooses not to use Harry as her emissary in Summer Knight.  Aurora has her war.  Lea kills a weakened Mab and  becomes Winter Queen.  Cowl does the Dark Hallow and the world burns, ect, ect, ect.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: WAG: Mirror! Mirror!
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2019, 02:07:14 AM »
Bony Tony would probably still be trying to sell the Word of Kemmler, so !Harry would likely be involved with the Heirs of Kemmler, even if it was just because he was after power. That would probably still lead to !Harry meeting Necro-Bob. !Harry four years after starting down the wrong path might keep Necro-Bob around.

!Harry could meet Evil Bob almost immediately after the wrong choice that diverges his timeline. Unless the divergent choice comes after already beating the Nightmare, he's going to need an alternative way to destroy a big angry ghost and steal back his power.

If he just asks Bob for whatever he has on dealing with that sort of problem, it leads straight to the "I don't want to remember that" / "Do it anyway" conversation that ended up letting Evil Bob out of his partition in DB in the main timeline. It would just happen years early, and with Harry desperate enough to accept the Kemmlerite easy button that Evil Bob could offer him.

Offline 123Chikadee

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Re: WAG: Mirror! Mirror!
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2019, 09:43:00 PM »
Hm, yeah Bony Tony probably would still do what he does.
I like the idea of a necromancer Harry, with any version of Bob by his side. I also didn't think of Lara not surviving, but now that its been brought up, yeah, her living doesn't seem to make much sense.
Though, I do think that Thomas and Harry might be more enemies but yeah Harry influencing Thomas in a negative way is still true.
I'm wondering how Harry and Bob's relationship would change, since Bob really doesn't like that evil part of himself.
I think for Summer Knight, that Elaine will be the one to really carry the day. For whatever reason, Lea and Mab might have a tougher time trying to get a hold of Harry.   

Offline g33k

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Re: WAG: Mirror! Mirror!
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2019, 11:11:44 PM »
From WoJ, I think (quoted above):
Quote
In this case it will be the big decision at the end of Grave Peril.

I think this decision is where Harry lets Susan leave to find her own path.
I bet he could have persuaded her to stay; he decided not to even try.

So, no connection (or much-delayed) with the Fellowship; Susan's self-control may be shakier for the lack.

Probably no Maggie; maybe another/different child... Young Ebenezer?  Or even children?

Dresden + Half-Vamp-Susan is a damned potent combo; if she stayed, maybe they turned into a major working team.  This cuts Murphy's involvement as Harry-backup WAY down.

Harry+Susan also reverses the Harry+Karrin field dynamic:  Half-Vamp takes point, wizard in the back (vs. Harry on point with shield, gun-Murph to the rear) ... subtly turning Harry into a guy who hides behind someone he cares for.

Or (#2 choice) -- he lets Bianca back him down from the big throwdown at the end.

Maybe he bargains to extract Susan, but becomes beholden to Bianca.

Maybe he concludes that a half-Vamp cannot be turned back, and therefore Susan is lost anyway.

Maybe he accepts the deal, planning to come back and steal Susan (but it's too late).

#3... #4 ... ?  Any other "big decision(s) at the end of Grave Peril?"
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 11:16:19 PM by g33k »

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: WAG: Mirror! Mirror!
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2019, 11:12:29 PM »
!Harry could meet Evil Bob almost immediately after the wrong choice that diverges his timeline. Unless the divergent choice comes after already beating the Nightmare, he's going to need an alternative way to destroy a big angry ghost and steal back his power.

If he just asks Bob for whatever he has on dealing with that sort of problem, it leads straight to the "I don't want to remember that" / "Do it anyway" conversation that ended up letting Evil Bob out of his partition in DB in the main timeline. It would just happen years early, and with Harry desperate enough to accept the Kemmlerite easy button that Evil Bob could offer him.
Good point.

I also didn't think of Lara not surviving, but now that its been brought up, yeah, her living doesn't seem to make much sense.
Either Thomas and Harry are allies and Thomas survives, or Thomas dies and Lara doesn't take over the White Court. She could at some later point when it becomes clear that Papa Raith isn't all there, but in that situation, House Raith is going to be a lot less likely to come through the transition unscathed. My point isn't that Lara would die; it's that she would not be in charge of the White Court and play out her scheme in White Night because the timing would be off, and she wouldn't be trying to manipulate good guy Harry who she got to know in Blood Rite or she Harry would have murdered her.

I think this decision is where Harry lets Susan leave to find her own path.
I bet he could have persuaded her to stay; he decided not to even try.
I doubt that Susan staying and surviving is going to make Harry evil. Now if Susan stayed and Harry had to kill her ...