Author Topic: Mab's Limits  (Read 15793 times)

Offline dspringer1

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1075
    • View Profile
Re: Mab's Limits
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2019, 10:48:14 PM »
Fair -

Although you quote implies that archangels are equivalent to lesser gods.  Given they can destroy galaxies, it tells you something about the power of greater gods.  :)


Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Mab's Limits
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2019, 06:53:18 AM »
That quote is now outdated. Jim has actually retconned that information.

Since Summer Knight things have changed significantly in the Power rankings :)
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2376
    • View Profile
Re: Mab's Limits
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2019, 06:11:14 PM »
That quote is now outdated. Jim has actually retconned that information.

Since Summer Knight things have changed significantly in the Power rankings :)

Do we have a nice neat (and current!) WOJ'ed ranking/list?

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Mab's Limits
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2019, 08:21:32 AM »
The short answer, g33k, is no. No one power ranking list tied up with a bow.

There are however several WOJ's that deal with power rankings. The substance gets a bit confused, as the way Jim seems to view Power is a combination of the term that is used in physics (the rate of heat transferrence or "doing work") and the term in social and political theory (authority and leverage), and skill level seems to fit in as well. Jim has said that Molly in someways is much more powerful than Dresden as a wizard (including before Cold Days) due to her exceptional talent for veils, psychomancy and illusions (both physical and mental). What I think he is really talking about here is how useful a wizard is in certain circumstances, or how dangerous a wizard is to both mortals and the magical community. Wizards normally are not too worried by veils and physical illusions as the Sight (and various tools like the grey ointment) allow them to pierce those constructs. However, Psychomancy gives Molly a real edge over most Wizards as their training is quite limited. But all her skills make her in some ways much more dangerous and influential on a larger scale than Dresden can be to the mortal world. But we often (like Dresden) think about it in terms of who would win this slugfest, so that shapes our views.

In the series however it has been noted by many readers that there are power creeps, retcons and inconsistencies over time. I think there are several threads on these boards alone, not to mention on other platforms such as reddit.

This makes ranking individuals in the Dresden Files a tricky prospect at best, as there is insufficient information for many beings and inconsistent examples (some which are believed to be intentional). 

Jim has also talked about what makes the Merlin (Arthur Langtry) the most powerful Wizard in the world. Right off the bat is his control of the White Council, one of the most powerful and influential organisations in the magical (and probably mortal) world - both as the man who manages their significant financial interests (Jim has said he could ruin countrie's economies with the wealth that the White Council has available to it), and the chief administrator he can mobilise great movement in the entire world. Even if he had no magic at all, that would make him tremendously powerful. Remember he commands the Blackstaff, the Wardens (and potentially has some oversight over THE Warden), several thousand Wizards,  and to some degree the Gatekeeper (although he seems very respectful of Rashid's boundaries), and probably any other positions we don't know of yet. But he also is incredibly strong magically speaking too (his natural gifts for Wards and mental communication aside, he probably has more knowledge of deep magic and other secrets that perhaps only he is privy to like a President or some such). He would also likely be an extremely accomplished Wizard in most areas of magic due to his advanced age and position - the Wizards wouldn't have elected just anybody to the role. Not to mention, he is know to be a strong and highly capable politician. It is no accident he leads the White Council - his ambition and force of will would have got him there. Which doesn't make him deadlier than Rashid, or more likely to win a magic brawl than Ebenezar. But the sum of his power (in terms of both physical, personal, political and social) is far greater than theirs. Which is why he is respected. This is what Jim is getting at.

What does this mean in terms of Gods, Archangels and Faeries Queens etc? That we probably shouldn't look at it in terms of "who could win that arm wrestle". But as the famous WOJ about who could take Mab discusses - there are several beings that have the necessary horsepower tp do it. So Jim brings it back to physical terminology. But then he reminds us at the end, that Mab is more than her muscles - her office, her lands, her armies all contribute to the sum of her power. Which make her far more formidable than most, even those that might out-muscle her. Only a few really completely over-match her, all things considered.

To give a really great Q&A answer from one of Jim's AMA's
Quote
6)Do you prefer to sit down and crunch the numbers on feats of strength and power output for your supernatural creatures, or do you prefer to just look at the scale of the effect and figure out what seems right for the story and tier of entity?
6. Both. :)

2012 Reddit AMA:
Quote
sapph42: You’ve talked about beings who were on similar (or greater) power levels as Mab – Titania (obviously), Drakul, and Ferrovax to name a few. However, I believe that list was generated before Changes. Where does Odin fall on that list? Hypothetically (assuming they exist), where would entities such as Zeus or Quetzalcoatl fall?
Jim: 4) Your question presupposes a linear hierarchy–which isn’t surprising, since the series has come from Harry’s viewpoint, and Harry is a straight-lines kind of thinker. Power is a much more nebulous thing than that, and something that is problematic to quantify. I think a reasonably simple argument could be made that Molly is a /much/ more powerful wizard than Dresden, for example. And in many situations, she probably is. Dresden tends to think in terms of “who would win this slugfest” when he’s dealing with the supernatural world because, well, of all the slugfests.
Odin isn’t gonna slugfest with you. He /could/. But that isn’t the Allfather’s style. Odin saw you coming last year, and he made his countermoves to what you’re doing right now a week and a half ago. For guys like him, fights are what happen when you /fail/ to win with /real/ power–knowledge and forethought.
Of course, sometimes everyone’s knowledge and forethought cancels each other’s actions out, and then it’s time to get all Monday Night Nitro. No one in the Dresden Files universe is really sure how that would shake out. But everyone on that level knows that they might be about to find out

I am not going to find all the threads that relate to this for you, they are out there if you want to do your own research. But it is generally accepted that in the early series Jim had not established all the rules and structures fully yet, hence later inconsistencies in the books. :)

Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Mab's Limits
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2019, 10:17:13 AM »
Mab will be as strong or as weak as Jim needs her to be as required by the story.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Mab's Limits
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2019, 10:52:53 AM »
Of course, but that applies to any character in any given tale.

We can still extrapolate information however based on the rules that the series has set up. So it isn't unreasonable to guess at her relative power to other beings of the series.
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.