Mab's Limits

[Bacail]

Mother Summer was somewhat vague in how correct Harry was and specifically which way he was correct.

"He knew certain names.  He was not wholly stupid in choosing them, or wholly wrong in using them." -Mother Winter, Cold Days. Page 383 of the Paperback. 

Since he only called her by two actual Names (Atropos, Skuld) and Mother Summer said, "It was not an imbecilic guess, she said.  And, yes, she has been known by such names before. But you've only guess the name of one of her masks-not our most powerful name."  Atropos and Skuld are in fact two names for Mother Winter, but also two different names for the same aspect of Mother Winter.  And that aspect is only ONE of Mother Winter's, of which she has more and some of them might be shared with Mother Summer. 

[Bad Alias]

@Bacail: Was it "the name" or "the names?"

@Yuillegan: The biggest piece of evidence is the the statues of the fairy queens in Hades' vault that Ascher identifies as Hecate. The way the statues are described are very similar to statues of Hecate with the exception that there aren't any ancient Greek statutes showing her as maiden, mother, crone. A chapter or two after we see the statues, Hades talks about Hecate's wedding gift to him, which is part of the origin story for seasons in Greek mythology.

That they are the Fates, and which ones, is pretty much confirmed by WoJ.

Posted byu/thefran
6 years ago
Who are the other two Moiras?
Apparently, Mother Winter is Atropos, 'cept for a cleaver instead of scissors.

Mother Summer is more likely Clotho with her duty to grant life. This leaves Lachesis
jimbutcherauthor
127 points
·
6 years ago
Right model, but you've got it misaligned by 90 degrees.

If they're the Fates, I don't see why they'd be Hecate too.

[Bacail]

@Bacail: Was it "the name" or "the names?"
That they are the Fates, and which ones, is pretty much confirmed by WoJ.If they're the Fates, I don't see why they'd be Hecate too.

Names, plural.  Those are direct quotes from the books that i posted.  So that would mean that mother winter is both Atropos AND Skuld, among any other mantles she holds.

[Bad Alias]

"she has been known by such names." Such - of the type previously mentioned. (Google definition). This means Mother Winter has been called by similar, but not necessarily the same, names before.

"But you've only guessed the name of one of her masks." Emphasis added. Singular. This strongly implies that one of the two names guessed is incorrect and one is correct.

This has been informative because it could be that the Greek name is wrong and the Norse name is correct. Therefore, the Queens could be Hecate and the Norns. The WoJ is vague enough that the "right model" has the wrong inputs and it should of been Skuld instead of Atropos. I still lean to them being the Greek Fates. If the second quote had been plural instead of singular, I'd say we've confirmed that Mother Winter is Atropos and Skuld, or at least part of them, but with it being singular, I don't see how she can be both.

[Avernite]

My personal read of it is that Atropos and Skuld are both names for one mask of Mother Winter, referring as they do to the same concept (mask).

That being the case, I suspect the Fae started as two triune goddesses. The Fates/Norns/... and Hecate/Gullveig/... (or Freyja for the Norse version, or maybe Freyja is Gullveig, or...) being mashed together into the twice-triple Queens. Then they probably used the Stone Table to murder a bunch of other old goddesses (and gods, for all we know) and take their power.

[Bad Alias]

Atropos and Skuld are names, Harry only guessed a name. It'd be conclusive if she had said "But you've only guessed the names of one of her masks." As it says the name, I don't see how you're reading it as "names." As I see it, the only way she is both is if Jim made a grammatical mistake/typo.

[Snark Knight]

For example, the entity behind the "worshipers" in the molly short story has nothing to do with the Outsiders, but was still a threat to Winter's interests.   Even though the Outsiders are clearly making a move, Mab cannot afford to ignore the other threats just in case they are acting while Mab is distracted.

Not exactly. The sleeping Old Ones are the lovecraftian dark gods. The Outsiders are their exiled servants and soldiers. Their goal for breaching reality is to get in and reunite with their masters to wake them up.

So knocking down Old One cults is actually just as fundamental to Winter's war as holding the Gates.

[Regenbogen]

Not exactly. The sleeping Old Ones are the lovecraftian dark gods. The Outsiders are their exiled servants and soldiers. Their goal for breaching reality is to get in and reunite with their masters to wake them up.

So knocking down Old One cults is actually just as fundamental to Winter's war as holding the Gates.

Agreed. Because...

'That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die.' (H.P. Lovecraft)

[Yuillegan]

Avernite - I think you are essentially correct. I believe a coalition of gods from many pantheons got together and used the Stone Table to transfer a LOT of power into the Sidhe. But not so sure it was murder, rather I think it was sacrifice. I think it was done not to detriment the gods, but to help them. WOJ is that the Sidhe were given power by agents who thought their influence in the mortal world was waning.

Bad Alias - I think the Gaia theory is more likely here. I think that because of all the different gods and goddesses pouring in their power, that is how they became what they are. But I think they were always important in the various pantheons (Moirae in Greek, Norns in Norse, Devi/Kali/Parvati etc) and then gained additional significance and power.

[dspringer1]

What everyone always seems to forget is the sheer Power of things like Uriel. He is so strong he doesn't do contested violence, he has terminated galaxies and even whole universes (WOJ). Mother Summer and Winter are at the same level, and so apparently are the Walkers (HWWBh and HWWBf).

Nothing in the book that I have seen says that Urial and Mother Winter are at the same level.   What makes you believe they are equivalent?   




But they are all limited because of their extreme might, and so can only use that incredible power in very specific ways at very specific times.

I would argue that "estimating how limited a godlike being is" would be the only way to measure the power of a godlike being.  A more limited being is a more powerful being.  Uriel is incredibly limited, while Mother Winter is so mysterious that it is hard to tell.  Hades is very limited, although it is unclear how much of that is choice vs hard limits.  Ambiguity on power level seems a feature of the dresden universe.   



There are SO MANY gods. Thousands, possibly more depending on the limits Jim has set. There are only two Mothers, three Walkers and five Archangels. That tells you something right there.

Not sure this makes sense to me.  There are thousands of gods, but there is only one Odin and only one Hades.  So not really sure why your counts communicate anything about power. 

Also do not forget that there is a multiverse.  There might be thousands of gods, but only a relative handful are active or engaged in any way with the Dresden world's universe.   And it is not clear at all (until Mirror Mirror) whether Mab/Mother Winter exists in more than one multiverse.  These other universes might have different guardians at the outer gates.   It might even be possible that in some worlds the outer gates have fallen where in others they stand.   So I can totally see thousands of gods of roughly equal power across the multiverse, with most of those simply not active or so limited in their access to the Dresden universe that they have effectively no power in that universe. 





What is clear enough, is that Hades is not at the same level as the Mothers, and therefore cannot be as great in power as all SIX Queens combined. That would be insane. He would then be stronger than two Archangels combined plus extra. It isn't impossible I suppose, but considering everything we know about Power in the series and the various beings, it just doesn't add up.

It is not clear to me how you are determining Hades is at the same level as the mothers.  The speculation that Hades is comparable to Hecate is based purely on mythology.  But neither mythology or anything that occurred in the books would give any insight as to the relative power of Hades vs the Mothers.   Can you please identify why you feel the two are equivalent? 

[Bad Alias]

I think there is a WoJ stating that the Mothers are in the same league as archangels or maybe angels. The problem with saying that means they're the same is like saying that the worst and best baseball teams are in the same league, so they are equal.

[Yuillegan]

Dspringer, I will answer your questions one at a time as best I can.

Nothing in the book that I have seen says that Urial and Mother Winter are at the same level.   What makes you believe they are equivalent?   

Right, so Uriel there actually have been multiple references both in-text and WOJ that say they are operating at the same level. I am not going to do all your homework here but there are several examples. Initially in the early books, in Summer Knight, Mab and Titania are considered to have power to rival the archangels and lesser gods (SK, Ch 23, p172). Harry then goes on to say that the Mothers are an order of magnitude above them. This is partially retconned as Mab and Titania in the later books no longer seem to be at the same level as Archangels, merely being at the level of the gods (not specified whether lesser or greater, or what the difference is between those categories, but very much explained that they outrank most gods). Jim also backs this up several times in interviews - he discusses that gods (or retired gods) like Erlking and Kringle, whilst being peers of Mab, are her equals. She is the boss of the worst of the worst for a reason. In their home turf they might be more dangerous to her, but that's the home field advantage. In Dead Beat when Cowl attempts to become a dark god using the Darkhallow (specified in the book as minor-league but this too may have been retconned in favour of him being greater), a question was put to Jim of who we had met thus far who could take Mab (assuming she was outside Faerie all alone, with no army or back up). Ferrovax, Titania (coin toss), the Mothers (who wouldn't), Drakul, all the White Council with her name, all the Reds, all the White Court, a union of the old Elders of the Black Court, and Cowl if he had completed the Darkhallow. When questioned if Cowl would really be that strong from eating just a bunch of spirits, Jim replied that was how beings like the Erlking became so boss in the first place (which is why he is part of the spell), and that the power-sucking Stone Table isn't for nothing

Whilst Mab is powerful, there are WOJs describing fights between Angels as blowing up planets, which is why they don't generally get involved like that in the first place. Uriel doesn't even really do contested violence, as he just thinks about annihilating galaxies and it just happens. There are multiple WOJs on this. In text, Harry even says he knew (like knowing with intellectus) that Uriel could take out all the planets everywhere just by thinking about them. There is even a really rare WOJ replying to a fan on FB in a private group where he said Uriel has ended universes. Mab and Titania are not in that league.

And finally in Cold Days, Harry even compares summoning Mother Winter just shy of calling up Lucifer himself. If that isn't a close enough comparison...

I would argue that "estimating how limited a godlike being is" would be the only way to measure the power of a godlike being.  A more limited being is a more powerful being.  Uriel is incredibly limited, while Mother Winter is so mysterious that it is hard to tell.  Hades is very limited, although it is unclear how much of that is choice vs hard limits.  Ambiguity on power level seems a feature of the dresden universe.   

You could argue that Choice is what makes you truly powerful. But I am comparing Power (energy) and Will (the ability to direct that energy). In Summer Knight there is a good example of this. The Mothers ask Harry what happens when something is stolen (including power) and he guesses it can be hoarded (as Dragons do) and it can rendered valueless or sold (both of which are change). When Lily is turned into a stone statue she is full of the power of the Summer Knight. She has a mantle. But as she is unable to express it, unable to use her will, the Power is rendered somewhat useless. Which is not to say that she has no power. She just can't use it at that point. But on the other hand, if you only have Will and no Power what can you do? Very little indeed. Which would seem a lot to something with little to no Will of its own, but to something with both Power and enough Will to use it - like another mortal for example - you are obviously at a massive disadvantage. It is all about the balance, the ratio. It is clear as you get higher in one you get less in the other. But it doesn't change the fact you have it in the first place. So Mother Winter, Uriel, HWWBh all have strong limits. Yet in the right circumstances can change reality and affect everything on a incredible scale. So while it might be a little here or there in terms of their full bench press amount, it doesn't really matter. Power has purpose. So they can do what they need to do when it is the right circumstances for them to act.

Not sure this makes sense to me.  There are thousands of gods, but there is only one Odin and only one Hades.  So not really sure why your counts communicate anything about power. 

Well actually we don't know that there is only the one Odin or the one Hades. That hasn't been established at all. But we do know that there is only the one Uriel, the one Lucifer etc. These guys are multiverse spanning beings - they operate at on a completely different scale. The fact that there is only a handful of these beings in all the multiverse, one of each individual in fact, shows that they are far more important to the overall cosmology than a Hades or Odin.

Also do not forget that there is a multiverse.  There might be thousands of gods, but only a relative handful are active or engaged in any way with the Dresden world's universe.   And it is not clear at all (until Mirror Mirror) whether Mab/Mother Winter exists in more than one multiverse.  These other universes might have different guardians at the outer gates.   It might even be possible that in some worlds the outer gates have fallen where in others they stand.   So I can totally see thousands of gods of roughly equal power across the multiverse, with most of those simply not active or so limited in their access to the Dresden universe that they have effectively no power in that universe. 

So pretty much answered this in my above point, but you basically make my point for me. We don't know that the gods are multiverse spanning individuals. Nothing in WOJ or in the books suggests this. We do know that Vadderung was theoretically aware of possible split universes, but wasn't 100% sure. He talks to Harry about this (specifically paradoxes) in Cold Days. And yes, while you may be correct that Mab may not exist across the multiverse, it would be strange if multiple Mother Winter's existed considering she is at the same level as other multiverse straddling beings. There indeed may be different guardians of the gates in different worlds. But they would all have a power source, who might wear a different mask in each universe. But underneath those masks is the same being. Mother Winter (or whatever is under that...)

It is not clear to me how you are determining Hades is at the same level as the mothers.  The speculation that Hades is comparable to Hecate is based purely on mythology.  But neither mythology or anything that occurred in the books would give any insight as to the relative power of Hades vs the Mothers.   Can you please identify why you feel the two are equivalent? 

I have never determined that Hades is at the same level as the Mothers. In fact I entirely disagree with that. Hades and Hecate were peers in mythology, but by no means was she the level of Hades. He had far more importance, and was considered so in ancient times. I was disagreeing with the comparison that Hecate is the being that makes up SIX Queens of Faeries, two of which are Archangel level. If Hecate makes up all six, and Hades is her peer or stronger, then he would have to be stronger than two Archangels plus extra and maybe a lot more so. Which would probably put him close to the Almighty. Jim's books give a lot of power to faith and belief, and Hades isn't very actively worshiped compared to the BILLIONS that worship the Almighty (in his various names - Jehovah, Yaweh, Allah etc). It just isn't rational. Now there may be no direct comparison in the books or in WOJ - probably because there really doesn't need to be. It is pretty straight forward with the pieces Jim has given to us.

[dspringer1]

Yuillegan

Interesting discussion.  My rebuttal 😊

I think we both agree that Mab is not equal to an archangel.    I remember a comment in the book implied that Mab and Uriel are in the same business, but that does not mean they are in the same level. 

I believe that the Mother is not equal to an Archangel.  None of your arguments in favor of this fact seemed persuasive. 


The Argument that the Lady, the Queen and the Mother are one individual is based on really two things in my mind.   
1)   The constant repetitions of the three statue theme in multiple settings (arctus tor, hades vault) with each time the author clearly indicting it is significant
2)   What happens when a Lady (or Queen) dies.  When a Lady dies, her power flows to the Queen.  When a Queen dies the lady becomes the Queen.  Presumably the same is found for the mother.  Like flows to like is the phrase used.   That tells me the power is the same.   It is not three Mantles, but one mantle with three parts.   

My point about “counts” is that the fact that there is one of some being or three of some being or a thousand of some other group says nothing about the power of any individual being discussed.  Power determines power, not how many others match your power.    The exact count of gods or archangels tells you nothing about their power. 

I do agree with you that any being that exists in multiple universes is almost certainly more powerful than a being that exists in just one. 

I disagree with you about the gods being multiverse.   I would argue that the stories confirm that the gods are multiverse, as do the WOJ.   Almost the entire conversation about the role of Ivy talks to this.   The whole point of what Ivy is doing is to “disconnect” a god from this world.  By blocking the memory of the god, that god loses contact with this universe.    I remember at least one other Harry digression where he talked to gods being active in some universes and not others.     Based on how described, no one god is probably active in all universes and probably many gods are active in only one.  But it is clear that at least some godlike entities are active in more than one universe. 

Given the close relationship between the Mother and the Queen, I find it hard to believe that one is mulit-versal and the other is not.   Not sure what the correct answer is, but I am positive that the answer is the same for both. 

There does seem some relationship between belief and power, but it is not a count.  A being with a billion worshipers is not many times more powerful than one with a few thousand worshipers.  I think worship is important, but it is not the primary determination of power.  A clear example is Hades who has great power, but probably no worshipers remaining on the planet (although he is a favorite in fiction).   I suspect worshipers/fans are necessary to provide an anchor in this world and more worshipers/fans make it easier to influence the world.    That certainly impacts the effective power of a being.   But there is little evidence that worshipers have a huge impact on raw power. 

[g33k]

... If Hecate makes up all six, and Hades is her peer or stronger, then he would have to be stronger than two Archangels plus extra and maybe a lot more so. Which would probably put him close to the Almighty...

Probably not.

I suspect strongly that the Almighty in the Dresdenverse is just that:  Almighty.  There is no "close to..." because no matter how much power you add to your existing power, you never reach infinite power... which is the Almighty.

Angels -- both Fallen and not -- allege that they were there at the beginning of time, that they saw the original Act of Creation.

As witnesses, their universe-spanning powers not needed.

None of the other powers we've seen onscreen have raised a similar claim; no Faeries, no Gods, etc.

 

[Yuillegan]

Fair enough Dspringer, I will take that as feedback. I need to work at convincing people and I did write a lot of text. I don't want to distort too much from the OP at this stage so I will leave it alone for now.

We both agree that Mab and Archangels are not the same level, but to correct you statement that they are in the same business but not the same level, see the below quote from Summer Knight. I put it in my last post but I admit it probably got hidden in all that text.

"Of course" Lea said. "They each exist in opposition. Each wields vast power, wizard - power to rival the archangels and lesser gods.

(SK, Ch 23, p172)
I have bolded the relevant bit. Lea is telling Harry about Mab and Titania after he has just looked at the with the Sight. As I said, this got retconned later in the series. Some still believe it is the case the Mab and Uriel are at the same level, but considering how unrestricted Mab is compared to the Mothers and/or the Archangels (in terms of her ability to influence and act in the mortal plane, her ability to show up regularly, and several WOJs) it is pretty obvious that Jim restructured his power rankings in the series.

I will leave you with this WOJ though:
 
Info about really powerful beings
The Mothers are extremely powerful beings, I mean, they’re really really well, you can tell because they hardly ever show up on the real world. In the Dresden Files universe if you don’t show up on the real world, it’s because you’re too big to walk around there. For instance,  I think in the third book, when the Dragon is talking about how the Earth couldn’t bear his weight, it’s not that the Earth itself would literally crack, it’s that reality would have issues trying to contain him, because every time he coughs, it would bend around like Neo in the Matrix. So, they spend most of their time NOT on the real world, they spend it hanging around in the Nevernever, all the really heavyweight guys do that. If you’re in the real world, well, the problem is that you’re in the world, and you’re kind of mortal, and something could come along and try and whack you, if they’re fast enough, or good enough, or lucky enough. Which makes Odin a kind of special guy, because he doesn’t mind it, he thinks it’s awesome. But anyway, you can always tell. If there’s folks who don’t show up in the real world, it’s because they’re super big. So, like, an angel shows up, and it’s just sort of a whispered presence that one person is aware of, that’s because he’s just too big to show up here, it’s a giant sandbox, and he’s got to be very very careful to not squash the sandbox. So, he just shows up for that one bit.
Kiama Australia Q&A

He is referring to when Uriel whispers to Dresden at the end of Ghost Story. He often uses the term angel and archangel interchangeably for Uriel, because Uriel is of course both. Species and rank. I have bolded the relevant bits so that you can see that Jim is comparing the two. He isn't saying they both add up to exactly 8 miles high, but they are both mountains. That puts them well beyond almost everything else, except the Walkers and the Old Ones. There is WOJ on that too.


One other thing that is relevant to the OP - in Welcome to the Jungle (the DF graphic novel), Harry encounters Hecatean Hags. These have skin like tank armor, razor sharp claws, glamours, more and stronger magic than Dresden does at the time, and are extremely long lived (having survived since ancient Greece). They were Hecate's greatest fans, her cult, and take a hell of a lot to kill. They are attempting an ascension rite. Bob tells Harry that this was how Hecate came to be in the first place. I think that is highly significant. She was a powerful witch (either mortal or monster like the Hags) and then completed her rite of ascension to become a god.

If Hecate is all the Queens of Faerie, and the Fae only came into being relatively recently, and Hecate herself only ascended several thousand years ago, and the Angels and Archangels existed before Time was a thing (WOJ plus multiple book references to witnessing the beginning of Creation) - then is how could Hecate be so powerful? Could she really match beings that existed before the parts she is made of existed? Even her magic?

G33k - I agree. TWG (Almighty) is just plain beyond anything we have encountered. That is pretty clear - and I am not biased I don't believe in God. Don't mind if others do either though. But I think it is clear that is what Jim has set. TWG is literally everywhere and sees everything, and in particular knows everything (and in the series Power and Knowledge seem to go hand in hand). No other beings have we seen have that much power.

Just to correct you - it is NOT just that the angels allege their origins as being before time, there is WOJ to support this.

@longshotauthor In the Dresden Files, are the fallen 4.6 billion years old or approx 4000? Big bang vs God making everything really.
@GiftedMonster How do you know that before the Big Bang, God didn’t say “Let there be light.” It’s fantasy fiction, Ashely, not theology 
@GiftedMonster Though for the record, the Dresden universe angels have been around since before time was a Thing. #TemporalHipsters

We don't really know their involvement with the act of Creation itself, we just know they were there "when" it happened (which by the way is an oxymoron, you can't have a when before Time). Yeah, no other beings apart from them have made that claim or connection. So I would say it is pretty relevant.