Mab's Limits

[dspringer1]

As a general tendency, the forum generally assumes Mab is effectively all-knowing, all powerful, at least from Dresden's perspective.   

This thread is more focused on Mab's very real weaknesses.  I would argue that Mab is a key player, but nowhere close to all knowing/powerful. 

Strengths
*  Immortal
*  Fairly low powered god.  The combination of Lady, Queen and Mother is collectively equal to a strong god like Hades in power.  The Mother has the lion's share of that power, so Mab by herself has to be fairly weak in the god power scale.  I would argue that the very weakness of her god power is a strength as she suffers much less restrictions on the use of her power as compared to the more powerful gods.  The universe as described clearly has rules that severely limit the more powerful beings.  The Mother must be far more constrained than the Queen and the Lady should be less constrained than the Queen. 
*  She is Winter --- great power over cold, ice, winter, etc.   Fey are very nature focused, so expect she has great ability to influence anything winter related in nature. 
*  She is clearly very smart and capable
*  She can hear things spoken at night, especially if her name is spoken.  Great source of intelligence
*  She is a planner - always having multiple plans for every contingency
*  She commands the winter fey.  Mother may be stronger, but the queen rules day to day operations
*  She no doubt has a "bank" of favors accumulated to leverage as needed
*  She has a very capable 2nd in command in Lea -- as well as a capable (if young) Lady in Molly

Weaknesses
*  Mab shares all the weaknesses of Fey - cannot tell a lie, vulnerable to iron, bound by winter law, must honor agreements, cannot give gifts without payment. 
*  Mab is automatically countered to some extent by Summer. That is the role of Summer
*  Mab's nature is Winter Fey --> which means her reactions are somewhat predictable if you understand winter fey in general
*  Mab cannot harm a mortal directly, but must wait for them to make themselves vulnerable (via a deal) or use the Winter Knight. 
*  Mab is weaker in the summer months, which means enemies can time their threats to when she is least able to deal with them
*  Mab must devote a large chunk of her time and energy to defending the outer gates.  If she wishes to be elsewhere, she must assign a substitute (typically Lea). 
*  The Fey are not easily controlled - as evidenced by Mab's use of unyielding edicts (like nobody can go to the mortal world until dawn as seen in Cold Days) as more subtle/flexible rules are likely to be bypassed by clever fey seeking advantage.   I would also argue that the Molly as Lady short story also highlighted the restrictions Mab operates under via her conversation with Molly.  She asked Molly for alternatives and Molly could not provide them.  That implies pretty strongly that Mab is operating with some pretty significant constraints. 
*   There are MANY other powers comparable to Mab out there in the universe.   Her attention must be split to counter many of them and/or make sure their agenda does not hurt Mab's agenda.  For example, the entity behind the "worshipers" in the molly short story has nothing to do with the Outsiders, but was still a threat to Winter's interests.   Even though the Outsiders are clearly making a move, Mab cannot afford to ignore the other threats just in case they are acting while Mab is distracted. 
*  Mab has been surprised several times, so clearly her ability to find useful/critical information is limited.

What am I missing?

[Bad Alias]

Strengths
*  She can hear things spoken at night, especially if her name is spoken.  Great source of intelligence

Weaknesses
*  Mab cannot harm a mortal directly, but must wait for them to make themselves vulnerable (via a deal) or use the Winter Knight. 
*  ... For example, the entity behind the "worshipers" in the molly short story has nothing to do with the Outsiders

As to the strength, where'd that come from? For the weaknesses, it was stated that the queens couldn't kill mortals uninvolved with the courts, but Aurora the chlorofiend was weak against Murphy, so I'm not exactly sure how that works. I'm uncertain as to how the Outsiders, the Old Ones, and the Oblivion War all relate to one another. There seems to be a lot of overlap.

[dspringer1]

The hear things spoken at night might be from a comment in the book - or the myths around the head of the winter I have heard in other contexts.  Sorry - cannot point to the reference, but believe it is there.

The clorofiend could distract Murphy, but I doubt it gave her anything more than light bruises.  It was so unusual given the context that it became a discussion point in that book between Murphy and Dresden -- and one of the reasons he "caught on" that the Summer Lady was his foe. 

[g33k]

The hear things spoken at night might be from a comment in the book - or the myths around the head of the winter I have heard in other contexts.  Sorry - cannot point to the reference, but believe it is there...

I think it's a power often attributed to the folkloric "Queen of Air and Darkness."  It certainly is explicitly one of the powers of Andais (the QoAaD in the Merry Gentry novels).  IIRC, there are several instances where Harry needs to avoid naming Mab aloud, for worry of attracting her attention.  I don't think that DF-Mab automatically hears everything at night, though.  Possibly anything she wants to / tries to hear?

... The clorofiend could distract Murphy, but I doubt it gave her anything more than light bruises.  It was so unusual given the context that it became a discussion point in that book between Murphy and Dresden -- and one of the reasons he "caught on" that the Summer Lady was his foe. 

Harry realized it must be one of the Queens, but there had been some frost/cold used against him (possibly Elaine's magic?  Or Lloyd Slate?) so he was presuming at that point a Winter foe.  He didn't realize it was Aurora 'til much later (I think in the Mothers' house).
 

[Yuillegan]

Strengths
*  Fairly low powered god.  The combination of Lady, Queen and Mother is collectively equal to a strong god like Hades in power.  The Mother has the lion's share of that power, so Mab by herself has to be fairly weak in the god power scale.  I would argue that the very weakness of her god power is a strength as she suffers much less restrictions on the use of her power as compared to the more powerful gods.  The universe as described clearly has rules that severely limit the more powerful beings.  The Mother must be far more constrained than the Queen and the Lady should be less constrained than the Queen. 
*  She can hear things spoken at night, especially if her name is spoken.  Great source of intelligence
*  She commands the winter fey.  Mother may be stronger, but the queen rules day to day operations

Weaknesses
*  Mab cannot harm a mortal directly, but must wait for them to make themselves vulnerable (via a deal) or use the Winter Knight. 
*   There are MANY other powers comparable to Mab out there in the universe.   Her attention must be split to counter many of them and/or make sure their agenda does not hurt Mab's agenda.  For example, the entity behind the "worshipers" in the molly short story has nothing to do with the Outsiders, but was still a threat to Winter's interests.   Even though the Outsiders are clearly making a move, Mab cannot afford to ignore the other threats just in case they are acting while Mab is distracted. 

Lots of theories in there - I am curious about where you get your ideas from though. So let's unpack.

Mab is a low powered god - where do you have reference to this? She is clearly stronger than retired gods like Odin and the Lords of the Outer Night. In terms of your scale and the god you have compared her to (Hades), are you saying he is as strong as the Mothers (and by extension, an Archangel)? Because I have yet to hear of any evidence to support that. Archangels, and beings of their level (the Mothers, the Walkers etc) are beyond mere gods like Hades. But I am open to a discussion of an alternate point of view.

I don't believe that her power works like Anduriel's, in that she can hear all things of the night. Her title as Queen of Air and Darkness, is more to do with the human elements (reason and savagery) than the physical phenomena. Which isn't to say she has no influence (she rescued Harry from the cold dark waters of Lake Michigan) but I think this ability has never even been hinted at in the series. Her ability to hear her name is more to do with being supernatural, even Toot-toot has that.

Mother Winter serves more like the Chair of the Board, the ultimate ruler. She doesn't do day-to-day operations as she has duties and concerns that are much higher and more complex. She is more akin to a force of nature, than merely a steward of a role. As Jim says, you just obey gravity - duh.

Mab may not directly be able to harm a mortal - but she doesn't need to. She has all those other Winter Fae for that. Plus a Knight.

And the worshippers were worshipping a "sleeper" something that the Outsiders wanted released...

[morriswalters]

By inference Mab is capable of observing the mortal plane.  Not just listening to voices but seeing.  It has been shown to us both in Small Favor and Changes.

[dspringer1]

Several hints in the book that the three queens are really the three aspects of a goddess - the most recent example is the statues seen in Hades throne.  If true, the goddess is a peer of Hades in power.   

If the three collectively are equal to Hades and the Mother is FAR more powerful than the Queen, then Mab must be equivalent to a fairly weak goddess.  On a mortal scale, the difference is irrelevant, but Mab's enemies include other god and god-like beings, so it is relevant when assessing Mab's ability to discover and counter the plans of other dark forces. 

[Avernite]

Several hints in the book that the three queens are really the three aspects of a goddess - the most recent example is the statues seen in Hades throne.  If true, the goddess is a peer of Hades in power.   

If the three collectively are equal to Hades and the Mother is FAR more powerful than the Queen, then Mab must be equivalent to a fairly weak goddess.  On a mortal scale, the difference is irrelevant, but Mab's enemies include other god and god-like beings, so it is relevant when assessing Mab's ability to discover and counter the plans of other dark forces.

Hecate once was a peer of Hades, aye.

But Hades faded, while "Hecate's" Fae conquered human perception of the forces of nature. The Twice-Triple Queen is not only Hecate, but far more.

[Kindler]

If Mab/Molly/Mother Winter are Hecate, then what are Titania/Sarissa/Mother Summer? Are they also Hecate?

[Bad Alias]

If Mab/Molly/Mother Winter are Hecate, then what are Titania/Sarissa/Mother Summer? Are they also Hecate?

Yes, if I recall correctly. See the chapter in Skin Game where they enter Hades' vault and see the statues.

[Regenbogen]

If Mab/Molly/Mother Winter are Hecate, then what are Titania/Sarissa/Mother Summer? Are they also Hecate?

That doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps the essence of Hecate is spread over the world in different Trios. Summer and Winter Hecate being only one example. Shakespeare's three witches (bubble, bubble,...) and many more manifestations.

Hekate as goddess of magic, necromancy, crossroads, thresholds, in between, and guardian of the gates between worlds (translated from wikipedia).

... gates between worlds -> the Outer Gates...
Goddess of the inbetween. Human universe -> Fairie <- the Outside
Goddess of necromancy... What? OK. Didn't know that, but it makes sense because of the thresholds an in between.

How does that apply to Mab?
I think it doesn't. At least not to Mab alone, but to all three Queens of Winter combined. Mab is just the aspect of the adult one of the three, who is currently in charge though the Mother has still the last word if she wants to.

[Bad Alias]

There is an idea from Neopaganism that Hecate (or really any triple goddess) is the maiden, mother, crone. "However, to Neopagans, as a triple Goddess, Hecate represents Maiden, Mother and Crone." http://www.hecatescauldron.org/The%20Goddess%20Hecate.htm. "Though the existence of a triple goddess associated with the Moon and with magic existed in classical pagan religion, the specific character of the modern neopagan Maiden, Mother, and Crone archetype is not found in any ancient sources, in which both Diana and Hecate were almost invariably described as maiden goddesses, with an appearance like that of a young woman." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Goddess_(Neopaganism), internal citations omitted.

I don't recall how much of the following is confirmed and how much was commonly accepted theory here on the forums. In the DF, Hecate was a maiden, mother, crone god. When whatever happened with the Greek gods and fairies happened, Hecate further split in two. Her maiden aspect split into the two ladies, mother into the two queens, and the crone into the mothers. There is also something about them (the Fairy Queens) being the three fates, Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos. In Greek mythology, Hecate doesn't have much to do with the three fates. It's all very confused.

[Bacail]

I don't recall how much of the following is confirmed and how much was commonly accepted theory here on the forums. In the DF, Hecate was a maiden, mother, crone god. When whatever happened with the Greek gods and fairies happened, Hecate further split in two. Her maiden aspect split into the two ladies, mother into the two queens, and the crone into the mothers. There is also something about them (the Fairy Queens) being the three fates, Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos. In Greek mythology, Hecate doesn't have much to do with the three fates. It's all very confused.

Keep in mind that we have also seen evidence of more Norse mythos in Summer and Winter.  Recall in Cold Days when the mantles were passed that Summer's took the form of an Eagle and Winter of a Serpent.  Among other mentions of these two, its strongly brings to mind the Eagle and Serpent of the World Tree in Norse mythology.  Skuld (meaning Debt or Future)is one of the names of Mother Winter, who was just one of MANY Norns, though one of the three Big Norns (along with Uršr (Fate) and Veršandi(Happening or Present))  Also, Skuld was also considered a Valkyrie in two Norse poems.  So it's actually A LOT more convoluted than just Hecate.

[Bad Alias]

Skuld (meaning Debt or Future)is [possibly] one of the names of Mother Winter.

Mother Summer was somewhat vague in how correct Harry was and specifically which way he was correct.

[Yuillegan]

The whole Faerie Queens = Hecate thing is just a theory. An interesting one, but by no means the only one. And it has never been confirmed.

What everyone always seems to forget is the sheer Power of things like Uriel. He is so strong he doesn't do contested violence, he has terminated galaxies and even whole universes (WOJ). Mother Summer and Winter are at the same level, and so apparently are the Walkers (HWWBh and HWWBf). But they are all limited because of their extreme might, and so can only use that incredible power in very specific ways at very specific times. This is all WOJ. And lastly, Uriel is considered a Senior Vice President of Creation. Assuming TWG is the President and Chairmen, I really highly doubt Hades and Hecate are at the same level. There are SO MANY gods. Thousands, possibly more depending on the limits Jim has set. There are only two Mothers, three Walkers and five Archangels. That tells you something right there.

And one more thing, there is a WOJ about how the Fae are agents of those whose influence was waning in the world, and so poured a whole lot of power into them in order to maintain that influence by proxy. This hints pretty strongly that many of the old gods put their power into the Fae in order to make them much more than what they were. This goes a long way to explaining their many links to the various religions and mythologies. There was a very interesting WAG that it was Hecate who all the power was poured into, but she was split in two (Summer and Winter) and the Queens are just different aspects of the original being, and the main bit that is left is Mother Winter (on account of the fact she has never changed). But that too is just a theory.

What is clear enough, is that Hades is not at the same level as the Mothers, and therefore cannot be as great in power as all SIX Queens combined. That would be insane. He would then be stronger than two Archangels combined plus extra. It isn't impossible I suppose, but considering everything we know about Power in the series and the various beings, it just doesn't add up.

Also Hades hasn't faded, he isn't like Vadderung. He simply is less involved - by Choice partially but also because of the balance of powers. See the WOJ about sleeping deities.

Morriswalters - Mab, and I suspect many other beings have some form of Farsight or Scrying etc. This is not the same thing as being able to hear and observe every thing that happens in the dark. Not in the same way Anduriel can. Don't you think that would have been revealed by now? No. It is more likely that when she chooses, she can try and observe various events as they happen (and perhaps see into the past and various possible futures, to some degree). Vadderung, Leah, Uriel and others have all shown the ability too, and I suspect they are far from the only ones. Hell, even Harry can view events happening from beyond himself either by scrying (using Little Chicago) or even through premonition.