Souls and Ghosts.

[Bad Alias]

What Lea is saying is that the shade of corpstaker is corpstaker, her essence just like Harry is his essence. It is what corpstaker makes corpstaker. It reflects what Mab and Uriel say about Harry. It can not be more clear.

She said "like," not "just like." Like: "similar to; in the same way or manner as." Are they alike in that they are non-corporeal or are the alike in that they are soul and spirit? Lea's quote is 50/50 on that count. It can be taken either way. It's hard to come up with another interpretation of the southbound train.

[Arjan]

She said "like," not "just like." Like: "similar to; in the same way or manner as." Are they alike in that they are non-corporeal or are the alike in that they are soul and spirit? Lea's quote is 50/50 on that count. It can be taken either way. It's hard to come up with another interpretation of the southbound train.

They are like in:

she has passed beyond the threshold between life and death

Not she isgone and this is something else. Lady shade is corpstaker.

She is Harry's godmother and is actually trying to help Harry to understand his own situation. She is really giving as much informaton as she can within her limitations. If you read the whole passage Lea tells about Corpstaker in ghost story which is too big to quote. I do not think a normal ghost can become alive again in the sense that corpstaker tried to do. 

[toodeep]

I think Jim has been inconsistent with his ghost/soul application.  It appears Harry was a ghost that was also running around with a soul.  Corpsetaker must have had a soul to go to the "southbound train" at then end of the book, despite the fact that she didn't even really believe in the soul.  But she's special because she body jumped and thus may have had her mind/soul already prepped for transfer and thus have kept it in the afterlife.

But we have two data points indicating that all ghosts have souls.
1.  Sir Stuart was offered a job by an angel, to work with other souls that we know are only working there until they are "ready" for the next step.  The indication from the angel was that Captain Murphy and Carmical (sp) were souls that were currently just working as ghosts before they moved on.  Sir Stuart had been a ghost for a very long time, and so to say he still had his soul enough to work with the Murphy gang seems to indicate most ghosts can

2.  Harry was given several options at the end - even to stay as a ghost.  This shouldn't have been an option if he still had his soul, since it should have had to go on to judgement no matter when his body finally failed.

Honestly, it does appear that ghosts are/have souls and that the final decision can be avoided, though it seems that doing so pretty much dooms one to be a pretty hellish fate as well eventually.

[Arjan]

In Ghost story Morty, sir Stuart and Harry actually have a discussion about the topic. Most are just ghosts and some are souls but the difference is nearly impossible to determine. Both have the same problem with thresholds for example.

But Harry could enter holy ground and mere ghosts could not. That is significant.

Also the southbound train is not the only afterlife available. We already have seen Hades who does not get many souls lately but stil gets a few and there are consistent stories of souls who stay here to handle unfinished bussiness.

Any soul with anough power and knowledge can probably stay behind for some time to protects descendants for example which explains ancestor worship.

[Mira]

In Ghost story Morty, sir Stuart and Harry actually have a discussion about the topic. Most are just ghosts and some are souls but the difference is nearly impossible to determine. Both have the same problem with thresholds for example.

But Harry could enter holy ground and mere ghosts could not. That is significant.

Also the southbound train is not the only afterlife available. We already have seen Hades who does not get many souls lately but stil gets a few and there are consistent stories of souls who stay here to handle unfinished bussiness.

Any soul with anough power and knowledge can probably stay behind for some time to protects descendants for example which explains ancestor worship.

I also think the "choices"  Uriel presented, while real, were not the choices open to Harry because he wasn't really dead.  Harry chose "what comes next."  He thought he was choosing Judgement, but instead he was returned to his body, lessons that Uriel wanted him to learn, learnt..  He was a soul, not a soul with a body, this knowledge later came in handy when Mother Winter had him pinned down.

[Bad Alias]

@toodeep: Jim pretty specifically stated that ghosts are what are left behind and souls move on. The link to the video is in the first post in this thread. Mort and Sir Stuart were pretty clear that Dresden seemed off for just a ghost. And Harry was given an option because that was the whole point. He was robbed of choice when he "killed" himself. His option wasn't to remain a ghost, but to stay in a pre-judgment part of the afterlife. That isn't avoiding the "final decision." It is delaying it.

[nadia.skylark]

I think Jim has been inconsistent with his ghost/soul application.  It appears Harry was a ghost that was also running around with a soul.  Corpsetaker must have had a soul to go to the "southbound train" at then end of the book, despite the fact that she didn't even really believe in the soul.  But she's special because she body jumped and thus may have had her mind/soul already prepped for transfer and thus have kept it in the afterlife.

Actually, I think he's been fairly consistent: anyone who 1) doesn't use necromancy; and 2) doesn't have an additional factor helping them to stick around doesn't get to stick around. The only two ghosts we see that we can confirm have souls are Corpsetaker, who is a necromancer and who also body jumps a lot; and Harry, who has a gift for necromancy and who has an archangel interfering.

Sir Stuart was offered a job by an angel, to work with other souls that we know are only working there until they are "ready" for the next step.  The indication from the angel was that Captain Murphy and Carmical (sp) were souls that were currently just working as ghosts before they moved on.  Sir Stuart had been a ghost for a very long time, and so to say he still had his soul enough to work with the Murphy gang seems to indicate most ghosts can

A couple of points:

1) I'm pretty sure Uriel says something to the effect of "Sir Stuart was a great man; even his shade has more than enough substance to be useful," which would indicate that Sir Stuart's ghost was not Sir Stuart.

2) There's a recent (or recent-ish) WoJ about ghosts that I feel is applicable:

In the Dresden Files ghosts are not trapped anywhere; they’re something new that had been created. They’ve been created out of memories into the form of something else, so as far as they’re concerned they’re the same person who’s now a ghost, but that’s not the truth of the existence. And when they end, they just sort of end in entropy, they just sort of trail away slowly if they use too much energy. Or if they don’t use much energy, then they just sort of hang around, and they … you know, it’s not much of a life, really. But it’s possible for them to grow and change, to find other sources of energy and become something else, but that’s kind of like, the exceptional ghost that does that, a particularly driven one. Most ghosts just sort of like, wander around and hang out with other ghosts, and they complain about the kids, you know “young’ns these days,” …

I think the bolded part probably applies to Sir Stuart's ghost, seeing as he's been around for centuries, and that, as Harry showed when he was a ghost, even having a soul doesn't stop one from degrading as a ghost.

[Mira]

@toodeep: Jim pretty specifically stated that ghosts are what are left behind and souls move on. The link to the video is in the first post in this thread. Mort and Sir Stuart were pretty clear that Dresden seemed off for just a ghost. And Harry was given an option because that was the whole point. He was robbed of choice when he "killed" himself. His option wasn't to remain a ghost, but to stay in a pre-judgment part of the afterlife. That isn't avoiding the "final decision." It is delaying it.

  Uriel was teaching Harry a lesson, it was a great risk because it made his soul vulnerable.  Harry was alive the whole time, Mab and Alfred kept his body going, he was near death, but as Mab said
he never crossed so far upon the spectrum of death that he couldn't be retrieved. 

[Bad Alias]

I've read the books and am at least familiar with the basic plot points. He was dead enough that serious supernatural players will now be interested in him. I can't remember if this was told to him by the Gatekeeper in Cold Days or Kringle in Skin Game.

[Arjan]

Death should be a learning experience, after all, or what’s the point?

Really love all her dialogue 

[Mira]

I've read the books and am at least familiar with the basic plot points. He was dead enough that serious supernatural players will now be interested in him. I can't remember if this was told to him by the Gatekeeper in Cold Days or Kringle in Skin Game.

Yeah, but he is not all dead, he is slightly alive... Mab and Alfred kept Harry's body slightly alive, but the same time he was mostly dead, so his soul could take it's walk about.   

We don't know how much information either Kringle or Rashid really have.  They might not know about the full capabilities of the I.C.U at Demonreach Memorial Hospital or the excellent care he got from Nurse Mab and Nurse Alfred..  Funny, no one mentions Dr Uriel here,  bet he was the main reason why Harry never passed beyond the point of no return on the spectrum of death..  All Kringle and Rashid know is Harry was dead and came back to life, they don't know about him being just mostly dead, no one ever went through his pockets to get loose change.

[Arjan]

Yeah, but he is not all dead, he is slightly alive... Mab and Alfred kept Harry's body slightly alive, but the same time he was mostly dead, so his soul could take it's walk about.   

We don't know how much information either Kringle or Rashid really have.  They might not know about the full capabilities of the I.C.U at Demonreach Memorial Hospital or the excellent care he got from Nurse Mab and Nurse Alfred..  Funny, no one mentions Dr Uriel here,  bet he was the main reason why Harry never passed beyond the point of no return on the spectrum of death..  All Kringle and Rashid know is Harry was dead and came back to life, they don't know about him being just mostly dead, no one ever went through his pockets to get loose change.

Vadderung probably knows. He is generally well informed, knows about the isle and was involved in the whole changes thing with Uriel and Mab. As Harry said in Skin Game, I asume you know everything I know. Lea knew as well. 

[Mira]

Vadderung probably knows. He is generally well informed, knows about the isle and was involved in the whole changes thing with Uriel and Mab. As Harry said in Skin Game, I asume you know everything I know. Lea knew as well.

  However, here is another question,  when Vadderung or Lea say, "you came back from the dead.."  Is it because they know it for a fact or are they saying as far as the general population is concerned Harry came back from the dead.   Appearances is everything.   Truth, Harry was only mostly dead, in fact should have been all dead save for several interventions, beginning with Harry falling into Mab's open arms in the icy water, slowed everything down to the point of suspended animation.  Perhaps a few moments before, though no proof,  an archangel stirring the air just enough to deflect a speeding bullet just enough, that while massive, the damage to Harry's heart not fatal because the Queen of Winter is there to almost instantaneously apply the big chill.  Who knows what life saving
fluids were in those vines from the island?  Harry did happen to have the "parasite" as well to act as a heart lung machine while his heart repaired itself...   However what the general supernatural public gets is propaganda, Harry died and came back to life...  This gives him mystic and a psychological leg up over his enemies and those who he needs to convince to be his allies.

[morriswalters]

In a colloquial sense, coming back from the dead means being revived after your heart stops.  A head shot would have made the point moot. When and where Kincaid chose to take his shot, and how it turned out, was probably as much to do with Ivy as Uriel.  How Kincaid chose to act made it certain that Mab would be in a position to retrieve Harry after the shot, and that the body would go more or less into stasis until she could pick him up.  However, once the brain dies, you're ded, dead.  Which is how Corpsetaker got locked out.

My head canon is that neither Harry or Corpsetaker were ghosts.  I only say this because both were capable of moving back into a body if one was available.  We see this when Butters spirit is left outside his body after being forced out by Corpsetaker.  On the other hand Sir Stuart doesn't appear to have this option.  My internal canon says that Corpsetaker and Kimmler figured out how to encapsulate whatever it is that makes them human and detach it from the body, much as Uriel does to Harry.  This in my canon is how they body jump.  And if we assume that whoever gets dispossessed is still human, like Luccio, then they encapsulate the soul as well.  So Corpsetaker could take a ride on a train.

I assume that ghosts are souls, but that they couldn't  move on, and in staying here they lose their individuality.  However the dead fish in that thought is that it makes Corpsetaker a soul eater.

[nadia.skylark]

I assume that ghosts are souls, but that they couldn't  move on, and in staying here they lose their individuality.  However the dead fish in that thought is that it makes Corpsetaker a soul eater.

Nope. There's a WoJ saying specifically that ghosts are not souls.