Author Topic: Souls and Ghosts.  (Read 33053 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #105 on: January 18, 2020, 06:55:54 PM »
Peabody fooled and manipulated the whole senior council. She is not more incompetent than them. Luccio is smart and inspires loyalty, that is difficult to replace.
True, but what I said is also true.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #106 on: January 19, 2020, 02:41:35 AM »
Morris - are you seriously saying that you just ignore the WOJ and just invent your own canon? Do you also write fanfic? I mean seriously where does it end? Do you also just decide which parts of the series are canon to you as well and which parts are not? Just because you don't like something doesn't make it untrue or go away. It is this very phenomenon which allows fake news to spread, religions to split and people just in general live in a bubble. Just accept what Jim writes isn't always going to be to your liking. He writes the books mostly for his own enjoyment, not ours really. We are just an added benefit these days, and that is just fine. Also, if that is your method for interpreting the series, just picking and choosing what suits, how can you expect anyone here to take what you say seriously? For what it is worth, I think you have plenty of excellent insights into Jim's writing and you seem to be a learned fellow with strong critical thinking skills. So I have no idea why you would just abandon reason like that.

Mira - I think you forget that Luccio's poor decisions whilst in her new body were all influenced heavily, and sometimes outright controlled, by Wizard Peabody. You can hardly blame her for that. Before she changed bodies she was well thought of and respected. Her main failing perhaps was that she, like most of the Council, became arrogant and had believed the White Council to be more powerful than it actually is - hence why the Red Court were able to do such damage against them, especially early on. That and the internal destruction of the Council and external manipulation of forces against them. Although one wonders if there is a time when the Council hasn't had the forces of darkness trying to destroy it.

And I agree, her new body had significant challenges. It is canon that it caused her to be unable to make any more warden swords, and that she wasn't as strong or as skilful magically as she was. Not only that, it made her kinder and more pliable and more distracted.

Morally wrong it might be to grab someone else's body, however I am not sure that is relevant to this discussion. For what it is worth, Corpsetaker didn't seem unduly hindered by the body he took, and I suspect (but I admit I don't know for sure) that the necromantic technique that he uses likely subverts the normal issues. Indeed, only once Corpsetaker had crossed far enough across the threshold between Life and Death did it mean that he needed a significantly powerful magical body. Almost like being born. Perhaps after being shot by Harry, the Corpsetaker lost a lot of magical power or essence and required a newly strong host to get it back. I suspect it is all to do with the same limits on Mortals that don't allow them to see the way Carmichael does in Ghost Story.




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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #107 on: January 19, 2020, 02:17:10 PM »
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Morris - are you seriously saying that you just ignore the WOJ and just invent your own canon? Do you also write fanfic? I mean seriously where does it end? Do you also just decide which parts of the series are canon to you as well and which parts are not? Just because you don't like something doesn't make it untrue or go away. It is this very phenomenon which allows fake news to spread, religions to split and people just in general live in a bubble. Just accept what Jim writes isn't always going to be to your liking. He writes the books mostly for his own enjoyment, not ours really. We are just an added benefit these days, and that is just fine. Also, if that is your method for interpreting the series, just picking and choosing what suits, how can you expect anyone here to take what you say seriously? For what it is worth, I think you have plenty of excellent insights into Jim's writing and you seem to be a learned fellow with strong critical thinking skills. So I have no idea why you would just abandon reason like that.
Obviously we read in entirely different ways.  The author gives me a foundation, and then what happens between my ears is what makes a book fun for me. This post was me finishing my part in this discussion.  Our Sir Stuart is a ghost.  The real Sir Stuart has moved on.  That is the WOJ in a nutshell.  He's a memory of the real Sir Stuart.  No WOJ disputes that and it isn't in the text.

And then there is what Jim says versus what he writes.  In this case he muddies the water.  Sir Stuart is an interesting character.  He draws sympathy.  Jim resolves the character by having his arc end at Chicago in between, having been given new purpose.  For a ghost this really doesn't make sense.  Jim tells us in the WOJ that ghost aren't souls. So there can be no redemptive purpose. Sir Stuart the character will haunt the PD in Chicago in between for eternity.  He can't go on like Captain Murphy might if the details of his death are resolved. So your sympathy is wasted on something that Jim tells us isn't real.  He isn't Sir Stuart.  He's water in a footprint.

And the argument as presented here makes that obviously apparent.  We want Sir Stuart to be something more.  In terms of how that effects my credibility I'm sorry for that, but it is how I enjoy the story.  Which is the point.  I don't really care why Jim wrote it.  He did though, and he put it up for sale.  The money for which I assume, is his primary driver.  And once that happens he loses control of the narrative.

For the Dresdenverse the question becomes, where does that, which makes the footprint, reside?  If it resides in the soul and if the soul is what makes Harry, Harry, then where does that lead us? In the story Jim implies Harry is wandering around in his soul.  Mortimer can sense him until Uriel enters the picture, at which point Mortimer implies he has moved on.  For the record Harry refers to Colin Murphy et al, as the Purgatory Crew.     

Corpsetaker on the other hand is ambiguous.  He/she leaps from body to body.  Did his soul take a permanent vacation the first time he leaped? The implication is otherwise.  Since he/she goes to hell at the end which seems wasted on a ghost. So Corpsetaker would seem to have learned how to encapsulate a soul, which the WOJ implies is not possible. This is what I mean when I say that Jim muddies the picture.

I offer this as an explanation of what I see when I read.  I don't ask you to ride with me, as I said this is my internal canon.  There is another possible take on this that may suit you better.  That the soul is different then what your memories make you.  So in the case of the Dresdenverse your soul awaits your spirit in wherever souls reside on the other side.  This resolves it within canon. 


Offline Arjan

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #108 on: January 19, 2020, 05:39:34 PM »
The woj is absolutely clear about ghosts. The book is also absolutely clear that not everything that looks like a ghost actually is a ghost. There is no contradiction here.

As I see it there are three layers. Your body is your outer layer. Your spirit is your life force, your magical power. It is also your spiritual body, it is what you see in the spirit world. Your soul is wrapped in your spiritual body and makes what you are, it is the core of your identity.

A Ghost is a sliver or a big chunk of your spiritual body left behind. A shade is soul with enough of its spiritual body to manifest in the spirit world. A Shade is basically a human without body. It has free will and so on. It can go on to what is next.

The book establishes that there ar no real ways to distinguish between Shade and Ghost except for the holy ground thing and the ability to return to a body. There are things that can point in a direction though. Being taken seriously by Uriel is one of them.

Jim often starts with a simple model that is refined later. He started with a simple Sidhe have no soul model for example and then he worked it out with Molly and Mab when Harry got closer to the Sidhe. Now he is not sure whether even Mab has some sliver of her soul left. Apparently even having a soul is not a simple yes or no thing, it can erode over time in some cases.The simple model is almost never the model that describes everything in the dresdenverse. If a book contradicts an older woj go with the book.

And woj about ghosts only say something about Sir Stuart if he is one otherwise it is not applicable.

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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #109 on: January 19, 2020, 11:09:54 PM »
Morris - are you seriously saying that you just ignore the WOJ and just invent your own canon? Do you also write fanfic? I mean seriously where does it end? Do you also just decide which parts of the series are canon to you as well and which parts are not?
I find this all to be perfectly acceptable behavior as long as whoever's doing doesn't say "and you have to agree this is the way it is." Stating "my head canon" is basically stating the opposite.

Offline toodeep

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #110 on: January 20, 2020, 04:09:25 PM »
For example she no longer was able to make Warden Swords.  She didn't forget how to make the swords, but she no longer had to the skill either to read the new warden to match the sword or apparently to make them.   Was this simply the lack of nerve pathways for the skill built up over a century or more of being a wizard or something else?  In my opinion in her new body she was also more vulnerable to the manipulation of Peabody.

Just as a very, very fine nitpick- it is not canon that she can't make the swords.  It is canon that she has told Harry she cannot, and that we can infer that the council accepts that.  I believe she told Harry she was not as strong (magically) in her new body and that is why she cannot.  I only make this point because when she told Harry this she was under the influences of Peabody.  A man who may have very much wanted to stop having the council wardens wander around with cool magic swords.  If he dropped a belief in her head that she couldn't, and you can't do magic you can't believe in, then voila' no more magic swords being made. 

So we know the effect, but we have only claims as to cause.

Offline Mira

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #111 on: January 20, 2020, 04:18:08 PM »
Just as a very, very fine nitpick- it is not canon that she can't make the swords.  It is canon that she has told Harry she cannot, and that we can infer that the council accepts that.  I believe she told Harry she was not as strong (magically) in her new body and that is why she cannot.  I only make this point because when she told Harry this she was under the influences of Peabody.  A man who may have very much wanted to stop having the council wardens wander around with cool magic swords.  If he dropped a belief in her head that she couldn't, and you can't do magic you can't believe in, then voila' no more magic swords being made. 

So we know the effect, but we have only claims as to cause.

  Very true, also goes to how effective Peabody's ink was in numbing the mind to infiltration.  However the ink seems to be limited to Peabody because either or both Morgan and Luccio seemed
to be aware when Molly attempted to have an unauthorized peek into their minds.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #112 on: January 20, 2020, 06:43:15 PM »
  Very true, also goes to how effective Peabody's ink was in numbing the mind to infiltration.  However the ink seems to be limited to Peabody because either or both Morgan and Luccio seemed
to be aware when Molly attempted to have an unauthorized peek into their minds.
They both knew her by reputation so they were probably more on guard. Molly simply did not know about the ink but Ebenezar was aware, they recognised several chemical and alchemical stuff when searching peabodies rooms.

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Offline Mira

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #113 on: January 20, 2020, 09:26:40 PM »
They both knew her by reputation so they were probably more on guard. Molly simply did not know about the ink but Ebenezar was aware, they recognised several chemical and alchemical stuff when searching peabodies rooms.

Huh?   I agree that both Luccio and Morgan would know why Molly was under the Doom... They might look for her to try and get into their heads, but the point is, they knew when she did, which has nothing to do with her reputation. No, Molly didn't know about Peabody's ink, but that isn't the point or important..  Peabody used his special ink, no one knew he was playing in their heads.  Molly had no such ink, both Morgan and Luccio knew instantly when she had her little peek..

Offline Arjan

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #114 on: January 20, 2020, 09:33:49 PM »
Huh?   I agree that both Luccio and Morgan would know why Molly was under the Doom... They might look for her to try and get into their heads, but the point is, they knew when she did, which has nothing to do with her reputation. No, Molly didn't know about Peabody's ink, but that isn't the point or important..  Peabody used his special ink, no one knew he was playing in their heads.  Molly had no such ink, both Morgan and Luccio knew instantly when she had her little peek..
The point is they might only have known because they were watching for it. Nobody suspected Peabody.
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Offline toodeep

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #115 on: January 20, 2020, 09:36:16 PM »
I don't think she did anything to Morgan.  He just woke up with her near him and freaked out at one point.  Then, later, Morgan walked in on her peaking in Luccio's mind.  No special detection required. 

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #116 on: January 28, 2020, 11:43:42 PM »
Indeed we do read differently Morris. You enjoy it how you like, far be it from me to stifle that. But if you are going to make WAGs, stick to the established canon. Anything else is a waste of time.

Should we not care about the after-image of a person? I don't think our sympathy (assuming the reader is sympathetic) is wasted on a ghost. That is merely an assumption. As Jim points out, while ghosts start of as merely a shadow of the real thing, they can become something in their own right. That is quite powerful, I think. Indeed often the idea of a person is far stronger than the real thing, and exists long after they die in some cases. Do we care as much about the person, as the idea of the person? I never knew Martin Luther King, but the idea of him is what inspires me and many others. Do I need to care about him personally, rather than what he represents and has become? I'll leave that up to you.

You don't have to care why Jim writes anything, he himself has said he doesn't care if people don't agree or like what he write (although I imagine there are limits to this). His primary purpose may be money, but that is a big assumption about someone we don't know (I assume you don't know him personally, like most of us). But I have known a few authors, both successful and otherwise, and it isn't really ever about the money. It is about the love of craft, the joy of the job, the strength of doing what you love most and feel best at. I think Jim has even used Harry to express this often enough when he writes about how much Harry likes actually doing magic. Yes it is hard and frustrating and terrible too. But it is often also very rewarding. I would not be so quick to just assume Jim is mostly in it for the money. He wrote Dresden because no one else was writing the story he wanted to read - that's worth thinking about.

He hasn't merely put it up for sale - he has put it out for consumption, true enough. But he wrote it also for himself too. So it does matter what he writes. Now we as a fan base, as an audience, may interpret it how we choose. But it is not up to us to decide what is written and canon, and what is not. You don't get to repaint the Mona Lisa just because it doesn't suit you. You can think your own thoughts about it, have your own opinions, but the paint is dry now and should stay that way. We can always write our own novels if we like.

To answer your question, the ghost is a by product of the soul. That is quite clearly established. On occasion they can work in concert, but it is rare. Think of a cup of tea. The cup is the body, the water is the spirit, the tea bag is the mind etc. The soul is both the sum of those elements, and the idea of those elements. The cup of tea. The dregs at the bottom when the tea is finished is the ghost - a remnant of something much more real but contains the memory of what was. The soul moves on to What Comes Next, the body decomposes, and the ghost is created in that moment of death. Gasoline, for instance, was once a byproduct of oil refining which later became a valuable commodity - but wouldn't have existed without the refining in the first place. A ghost goes on and has use in it's own way, but did not come into existence without the presence of a soul. I hope that answers your question.

As for Mortimer being unable to sense him when Uriel shows up, well I think if Uriel had wanted him to look like a ghost and act like a ghost he gave him the option, but he never really was just that. When Uriel shows up he is finishing the job (the whole point of which was to help Harry understand that he killed himself, and the effect of his choices, and perhaps also hint at the greater struggle going on around him). If Uriel had wanted Mort to sense him, then Mort would have been able to sense him. It's almost Deus Ex Machina.

The Corpsetaker is different because he/she is a necromancer. I imagine using the powers of death magic might have some bearing on how your soul travels through the spectrum of death, not that it made much difference to him/her in the end. How this was possible is not yet known, and it likely won't be until Harry is forced to know more about necromancy I imagine, if we ever learn it at all. Although I don't see how the WOJ ever says it isn't possible to encapsulate a soul. A phylactery is a tool that does exactly that, which JK Rowling called a Horcrux.

Whilst one can be two, two can not be one. The ghost is a byproduct of a soul, which can work in concert in certain circumstances. Whether Sir Stuart is or isn't is a little ambiguous, but at this stage not very relevant to the story. Corpsetaker almost certainly was a soul, but may also have been in concert with his/her ghost, just like Harry.



On another note entirely - in Grave Peril Harry had this to say about ghosts.
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I saw the ghosts the dead had left
behind settle the score.
Ch38, p229.

The ghosts the dead had left behind...  The dead leave behind ghosts, but they themselves go on. A subtle but important difference. Which lines up perfectly with the WOJ and established canon...and this was 10 books before ghosts were significant and we learnt more about that world.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #117 on: January 29, 2020, 12:43:33 AM »
If I were a ghost in the Dresden files I would shoot myself with a memory bullet.  They have no future.  Absolutely none.  Jim's a good writer.  He makes us like the character of Sir Stuart, and then moves him out of the hood and into Purgatory Precinct, with unresolved souls, or whatever Captain Murphy is suppose to represent.  Which makes us feel good about it.

It reads well if you don't think about it.  Having said that, I understand the premise and if I made a WAG about it forgive me.
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Should we not care about the after-image of a person?
I like movies with Cary Grant, but those movies aren't Cary Grant.
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Indeed we do read differently Morris.
Perhaps.  Reading is a solitary business.  It's only in recent years that I have looked at books as something more than a momentary pleasure.  I absorb them without thinking.  I gave you a look at how I would perceive the text as I read it.  Before Jim rewrites the story in a promotional visit to a bookshop.


Offline Arjan

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #118 on: January 29, 2020, 08:26:14 AM »
The idea that everything that looks like a ghost actually is a ghost is not true according to monty:

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“. . . came back to help,” Mort said. “
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It happens sometimes
. Some people die feeling that something was incomplete. I guess Dresden thought that he hadn’t done enough to make a difference around here.” Mort shook his head. “As if the big goon didn’t turn everything upside down whenever he showed up.”
Karrin smiled faintly and shook her head. “He always said you knew ghosts. You’re sure it was really him?”
Mort eyed her. “Me and everyone else, yeah.”
The soul can choose to stay behind if there is a strong enough will to do something. This can be as simple as pulling a lever as Deirdre showed in skin game or he can be basically tricked into it as Harry was.

Morty knew it was really Harry at the end not because Uriel told him but because he knew it was possible and his experience with Harry told him so. It is not that it was impossible, it just does not happen that often.

The soul does not automatically go to what is next, it has to go there and sometimes a special escort is needed and arranged as in Forthils case.

Also what is next is not always the same. Some people go to Hades domain for example. Again faith of the shade probably plays a role.

The idea that a person can stay behind if there is unfinished business is an old one. Mark that Uriel specifically convinced sir stuart that the bussiness of protecting his line was finished:

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Uriel watched Mort shielding Karrin’s sorrow and said, “You’ve watched over him faithfully, Stuart. And he’s grown a great deal in the past few years. I think he’s going to be fine.”

Sir Stuart had a reason to stay behind. He had the will to do so. He also might have been an ectomancer in life but I do not think that is necessary, it only makes it more likely.

But the spirit world is dangerous and most shades wouldn't last long. It takes a strong shade to stay sane and whole for a long time. That is why father forthil got his guard. That is probably why the gods created afterlives like Hades, to protect their followers (and for the spirital power the shades represent). But the oldest forms of worship include ancestor worship. Maybe originally people just stayed with their descendants.

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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #119 on: January 29, 2020, 10:03:03 PM »
Yuillegan: "The ghost is a byproduct of a soul." If this is correct, then animals such as Sue have souls.

Ignoring, or at least discounting, WoJ is a perfectly acceptable analytical framework.

The idea that everything that looks like a ghost actually is a ghost is not true according to monty:
. Some people die feeling that something was incomplete. I guess Dresden thought that he hadn’t done enough to make a difference around here.” Mort shook his head. “As if the big goon didn’t turn everything upside down whenever he showed up.”
Karrin smiled faintly and shook her head. “He always said you knew ghosts. You’re sure it was really him?”
Mort eyed her. “Me and everyone else, yeah.”

The soul can choose to stay behind if there is a strong enough will to do something. This can be as simple as pulling a lever as Deirdre showed in skin game or he can be basically tricked into it as Harry was.

I think there is an alternative more plausible interpretation of these events. Morty was assuring Murphy that it actually was Harry's ghost as opposed to some impostor spirit. Murphy was insistent that Dresden wasn't dead (turns out she was right). She reasoned that if Dresden's spirit was running around, he was dead and gone (turns out she was wrong). I read that quote as confirmation that Dresden wasn't some spirit impersonating him.

Deirdre didn't choose to stay behind. She was in an afterlife. That's a native habitat for discorporate souls. (Or at least that's my take).