When Did Karrin Learn of the White Council?

[Bad Alias]

In Chapter 18 of Summer Knight Harry tells Murphy "all of it" at the Wal-Mart. "[M]ost of all, I told her about the White Council." So the obvious answer is "that's when she learned about it, idiot." But in Chapter 31 of Fool Moon in the pit on Marconne's estate, Murphy says "I can't figure out why they [the FBI hexenwolves] didn't do the deed themselves, instead of leaving it to MacFinn." Harry responds with "Trying to cover their tracks from the White Council." Murphy doesn't respond with anything even close to something that would indicate she doesn't know what the White Council is. Does she already know? Is she playing it cool because Dresden is talking more than he usually does? Murphy doesn't seem like the type to just let it go if she has no idea what Harry's talking about. Especially in Fool Moon. But that appears to be precisely what she does. We don't hear mention of it again. Maybe Murphy got the information from other sources.

While knowledge of the White Council isn't something one can get in the local library, it's not as if it's impossible to obtain even some pretty sensitive information about it. In Chapter 1 of Summer Knight, Billy know's that the "wizard's White Council is coming to town." Harry responds with "[W]hat White Council?" Point being that Billy has figured out that the White Council exists, and the Council is coming to Chicago in the middle of a war. Presumably, that information would be deemed sensitive. In Chapter 8 of Grave Peril, Susan indicates that she doesn't know what the White Council is, but she could just be using the opportunity to dig for more information. If she honestly doesn't know what the Council is, it's not easy for someone who isn't a member of "the community" to find out about.

[Wolfeyes]

My take on it is it was either Early Installment Weirdness or that Harry might've mentioned something about there being a wizarding council but not the full details of it. Since Murphy knew some things from Harry on top of him being a wizard, but she didn't know all of it, which is a large part of what led to conflict early on.

[Mr. Death]

I would posit that if the pit is where Murphy first heard the name "White Council," that wasn't really the time or place to start digging for details, as they had rather more pressing concerns at the time.

I would also posit that Murphy would have figured out that there's some kind of governing body for wizards based on her interactions with Harry.

Doesn't he tell her about how killing with magic is against the laws in Storm Front? She's bright enough to figure out that if there are laws, there must be someone who makes and/or enforces them, considering she's in exactly that sort of business.

[Bad Alias]

[1.]I would posit that if the pit is where Murphy first heard the name "White Council," that wasn't really the time or place to start digging for details, as they had rather more pressing concerns at the time.
...
[2.]Doesn't he tell her about how killing with magic is against the laws in Storm Front?

1. I get that, but she doesn't say anything until the Wal-Mart scene? And even then her reaction doesn't indicate whether or not she knew of the White Council's existence. Harry's inner monologue makes it look like he thought she didn't know anything about it.

2. He specifically avoids the issue, at least in Chapter 2. "I don't talk to regular people about the White Council. It just isn't done." He also doesn't explain why researching how to kill with magic is a bad idea. He just says "you don't understand." That's the whole reason the conflict between Murphy and Harry makes sense to me in Storm Front. Harry keeps lying to Murphy because he hasn't told her about the White Council in order to protect her, which actually gets her poisoned by a giant scorpion.

There is always the possibility that Murphy notices Harry's White Council comment and locks onto it. She then starts poking around and figures out all sorts of things about it and Harry's relationship with the Council. Who and what Harry is isn't exactly secret in the "community," and unlike Susan, Murphy is there to protect them (mostly), where Susan is there to expose them. So, people might be a lot more willing to talk to Murphy. I'm having trouble placing when it starts, but Murphy is pretty well known in the community. Susan is lurking around S.I. all the way back in Storm Front. I'm sure her reputation in the community exploded at the end of Fool Moon. By White Night, Abby knows who she is on sight. Murphy figuring out at least the framework of what the White Council is and it's relationship with Harry would explain the drastic improvements in their relationship. (Outside of Jim just moving away from the p.i./cop frenemies trope). Murphy understands Dresden and why he has been holding back.

I guess that's my theory of what happened until someone comes along and punches holes in it or has a better idea.

[g33k]

... In Chapter 1 of Summer Knight, Billy know's that the "wizard's White Council is coming to town." Harry responds with "[W]hat White Council?" Point being that Billy has figured out that the White Council exists, and the Council is coming to Chicago in the middle of a war. Presumably, that information would be deemed sensitive.

I think it's simpler than that.  Once you've got a foot in the Spooky world, you see a LOT.

Most mortal practitioners know of the White Council.  The Council makes a point of giving a Warden-visit to anyone they deem even capable of enough power to do any active Black Magic; Charity's group got a visit.  The Ordo Lebes knew.  Everyone who's a regular at MacAnaly's knows.  Etc...

Most of them probably know there's some territorial/vigilante werewolves who patrol over near the Univeristy.  I presume some of them live in the neighborhood, and know some of the Alpha's personally... and thus, vice versa.

By the time of SK, Billy actually has a huge network of sources who know about the White Council (albeit only low-level / outsider info (mostly low-level:  given female-line magic, I suspect that some minor witches have GENERATIONS of 'watching-the-WC' wisdom they have accumulated in their respective BoS's/whatever)); he doesn't have to rely upon Harry for that.  Harry's "what WC" is a reflexive thing, but if he'd stopped to think he'd have realized how silly it was.

Given that the WC seems to like to use the same warehouse when they come to Chicago, I presume the local supernatural community has picked up on the signs -- greycloaks in the area, etc -- and knows when "the Council is coming," albeit not with any specificity.
 

[Mr. Death]

1. I get that, but she doesn't say anything until the Wal-Mart scene? And even then her reaction doesn't indicate whether or not she knew of the White Council's existence. Harry's inner monologue makes it look like he thought she didn't know anything about it.

2. He specifically avoids the issue, at least in Chapter 2. "I don't talk to regular people about the White Council. It just isn't done." He also doesn't explain why researching how to kill with magic is a bad idea. He just says "you don't understand." That's the whole reason the conflict between Murphy and Harry makes sense to me in Storm Front. Harry keeps lying to Murphy because he hasn't told her about the White Council in order to protect her, which actually gets her poisoned by a giant scorpion.

There is always the possibility that Murphy notices Harry's White Council comment and locks onto it. She then starts poking around and figures out all sorts of things about it and Harry's relationship with the Council. Who and what Harry is isn't exactly secret in the "community," and unlike Susan, Murphy is there to protect them (mostly), where Susan is there to expose them. So, people might be a lot more willing to talk to Murphy. I'm having trouble placing when it starts, but Murphy is pretty well known in the community. Susan is lurking around S.I. all the way back in Storm Front. I'm sure her reputation in the community exploded at the end of Fool Moon. By White Night, Abby knows who she is on sight. Murphy figuring out at least the framework of what the White Council is and it's relationship with Harry would explain the drastic improvements in their relationship. (Outside of Jim just moving away from the p.i./cop frenemies trope). Murphy understands Dresden and why he has been holding back.

I guess that's my theory of what happened until someone comes along and punches holes in it or has a better idea.

Fair enough, I was misremembering.

I would also posit that, it's only logical to conclude there is some overriding framework for wizards, if only because the first thing anyone is going to think of on meeting a wizard named "Harry" is "Potter." Or on the logic of, "OK, someone clearly taught him these things, and he's clearly not the only one, so there must be something keeping them in check."

Basically, there's a lot of reasons for someone who knows Harry personally and knows he's a wizard to conclude there's some sort of organization around wizards, even if you don't know its structure or even its name.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Murphy must have discovered more than we were told about in the first couple of books.  Remember at the beginning of Fool Moon when she came in to talk to Harry at Mac's just after Kim had left the table.  Murphy picked up the crumpled note that contained Kim's drawing of the summoning circle and placed it in her coat pocket.

Now we could surmise that while Murphy had been checking out the werewolf murder scene she had Carmichael tail Harry, so that is how she knew where he was, except Harry wasn't even a little surprised to see her there.  This means Murphy had been to Mac's before; probably with Harry, but we didn't see her there in Storm Front, did we?  So perhaps sometime Harry invites Murphy to have a beer.  It could have happened before Storm Front.  By the start of Fool Moon Murphy was casually gathering information on Harry when she picked up the drawing.  She didn't have a specific reason to do so, but she held onto that drawing.  I wouldn't be surprised if part of Murphy's backstory is going to McAnally's when Harry wasn't there and talking to Mac or some of his patrons to see if she could learn anything, either about Harry or the supernatural world in general.

I doubt Murphy would have learned very much, but she could have heard about the White Council or at least about a governing body for people like Harry.  The things Murphy might have picked up about Harry could have been both reassuring and disturbing.  All it would have taken is one person to say something like, "I don't know him very well; nobody does really, but Harry is a good guy.  He tries to help people in the community.  Of course the powers that be don't like him very much and Harry can be a real scary guy at times.  There are rumors that he was involved in some very nasty business before he came to Chicago."  If Murphy pushed for more information she might get a response that went something like this, "I really can't talk about this Lt. Murphy, but there are rules we all have to live by, and there are people who enforce those rules.  When I said 'The powers that be', that's who I was referring to."

It's also possible if Murphy dug out any information, it was far more fragmentary than what I described in the paragraph above, but after seeing people's hearts blasted out from the inside, being attacked by a giant magical scorpion and having Harry refuse to give her the full story of what happened, I'd be surprised if Murphy hadn't been trying to gain more knowledge about Harry and the magical world in general.