How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...

[123Chikadee]

@BadAlias: Yeah I feel yeah on that, though I do make an exception for effects and the like if they're really good. But yeah I'm less forgiving when it's done badly. I guess I've just made my peace with seeing the Doylist, lol.
Huh, I never saw it that way, how Storm Front effects Grave Peril like that. Though I feel like a lot of that could be shown in Mirror Mirror. Man, I'm so excited for that book.

[Mira]

I brought up the addiction thing specifically in response to your claim that, since Molly violated the terms of her parole even though the consequence of doing so was death, then no consequence would be sufficient to prevent Kim from doing what she did. However, this is comparing apples to oranges. Molly is a recovering addict falling off the wagon. Kim is a college student who decides to shoplift because she doesn't want to admit to her parents that she needs money. The situations are not at all the same, and consequences that the addict will ignore can and frequently will be enough to prevent the college student from doing things.

Comparing Kim to the college student who steals instead of admitting and asking her parents for money is perfect.    I think in Molly's case that she is an addict may be a bit simplistic,  I say that because she had a real rational for using it however misguided it might have been.

Perhaps brains are not fully formed until the mid-twenties, however that doesn't stop the law from allowing young men and women to drive a car, own a gun, [even now in many places 21, Kim was at least that age] go to war, drinking, voting, running for office,  marrying, becoming a parent, or receiving the death penalty and being put to death for actions they took before their brains are fully formed.   In other words whether the brain if fully formed or not, at some point young people are expected to take responsibility for their actions.. 

[morriswalters]

Murphy's view of supernatural world in Storm Front is like someone looking through a keyhole rather than a nice large window and Harry tries to keep it that way; and though Harry does it mostly to protect Murphy, it backfires instead.

Harry does this over and over.  He's protecting Murphy.  He's protecting Kim.  He's protecting Molly.  Can you see an ongoing pattern in what Harry is doing.

[Avernite]

Harry does this over and over.  He's protecting Murphy.  He's protecting Kim.  He's protecting Molly.  Can you see an ongoing pattern in what Harry is doing.

He was protecting all of Chicago too.

[nadia.skylark]

Harry does this over and over.  He's protecting Murphy.  He's protecting Kim.  He's protecting Molly.  Can you see an ongoing pattern in what Harry is doing.

Are you implying that Harry concealed information from Molly against her will in an attempt to protect her? Because I don't ever remember that happening. The only times I remember him choosing to conceal information from Molly is A) at the end of White Night, when she specifically said it was all right for him to do so; and B) in Cold Days, when he's not talking about Nemesis to anyone because he's not sure who he can trust.

[morriswalters]

No.  Harry is protecting them.

However, remember Mab's words to Harry after the fight on Demonreach in Cold Days. Quoting Mab.

You made her curious about what you could do, and nurtured that curiosity with silence.

And.

I stood there with my mouth open for a second.  "That...that isn't...what I did."
Mab leaned closer to me and said, "That is precisely what you did," she said.

I creatively edited those quotes.  What he does in Changes is the one time the trope is turned upside down.  He gets her to use Black Magic to wipe his mind so that Mab won't know he caused his own death.  Thus according to your addiction theory, giving heroin to a heroin addict. Bails on her, violating her probation.  And gets her shot and mind f****d at Chichen Itza.  If there is a clear example that Harry has hurt someone, this is it.  Anyway, as usual, it's been fun.  Thanks.

[Mira]

However, remember Mab's words to Harry after the fight on Demonreach in Cold Days. Quoting Mab.
Quote

    You made her curious about what you could do, and nurtured that curiosity with silence.

And.
Quote

    I stood there with my mouth open for a second.  "That...that isn't...what I did."
    Mab leaned closer to me and said, "That is precisely what you did," she said.

I creatively edited those quotes.  What he does in Changes is the one time the trope is turned upside down.  He gets her to use Black Magic to wipe his mind so that Mab won't know he caused his own death.  Thus according to your addiction theory, giving heroin to a heroin addict. Bails on her, violating her probation.  And gets her shot and mind f****d at Chichen Itza.  If there is a clear example that Harry has hurt someone, this is it.  Anyway, as usual, it's been fun.  Thanks.

I repeat it gets complicated....  Just what do you mean by "creative editing?" 

As I said it gets complicated, first of all, it is still her choice whether to mind wipe Harry or not.. Molly admits that freely.. The Fae may not outright lie, however they can twist the truth to their own purpose, Mab wanted Molly herself, she knows Harry better than he knows himself and uses that knowledge to manipulate him...  Molly went to C.I. of her own free will, if I remember correctly Harry didn't want her to go in the first place..   In the spirit of what Mab told him about he should not have kept magical knowledge from Molly, that is why she went warlock in the first place is B.S.  To begin
with Harry had no clue she had talent in the first place until Proven Guilty..  He didn't know until then that Charity had had talent and misused it when young and kept that knowledge quiet...  So while Mab spoke the truth as far as Molly looking up to Harry, she omitted the above, which is rather critical..  Also as a huge advocate of parental responsibility,  her parents are the ones that bare the blame..  They never told him that Charity had talent or what to do if it shows up in one of their kids..
Charity nursed Harry's wounds, but she never approved of him or his magic, if he tried to teach anything to young Molly if he had guessed she was talented, Charity would have had made a coat with his guts... 

[morriswalters]

The passages I quoted would have been better had they been longer, I was lazy.

[Mira]

The passages I quoted would have been better had they been longer, I was lazy.

   With all due respect, do not be lazy about your quotes..  Give page numbers as well as book titles, context is very important...  Not saying you are doing this, but quotes without context or edited can be easily twisted one way or another... At least by giving the page number, oh and saying it is hard back or paperback as well because the pages don't always line up, gives the rest of us to go back and read for ourselves...  It enhances the debate and give both sides of it better grounds to support or refute..

[noblehunter]

   With all due respect, do not be lazy about your quotes..  Give page numbers as well as book titles, context is very important...  Not saying you are doing this, but quotes without context or edited can be easily twisted one way or another... At least by giving the page number, oh and saying it is hard back or paperback as well because the pages don't always line up, gives the rest of us to go back and read for ourselves...  It enhances the debate and give both sides of it better grounds to support or refute..

Major downside of ebooks/audiobooks. Much more difficult to direct people to the right spot for quotes.

[Mira]

Major downside of ebooks/audiobooks. Much more difficult to direct people to the right spot for quotes.

True, but still important, even with audiobooks and ebooks, chapters at least can be given.

[nadia.skylark]

No.  Harry is protecting them.

However, remember Mab's words to Harry after the fight on Demonreach in Cold Days. Quoting Mab.

You made her curious about what you could do, and nurtured that curiosity with silence.

And.

I stood there with my mouth open for a second.  "That...that isn't...what I did."
Mab leaned closer to me and said, "That is precisely what you did," she said.

So, you're saying that Harry was trying to protect Molly by not telling her about magic? That's not right. Harry wasn't around when Molly was learning about her magic because he was explicitly avoiding Michael due to the whole Lasciel situation. Protecting Molly didn't factor into it.

[morriswalters]

Well. I'll keep that in mind for the future.  I would have thought Mab's final speech in Cold Days and the snippets I quoted were both obvious and easy to find. However on the Kindle version it is page 509 of 515.

So, you're saying that Harry was trying to protect Molly by not telling her about magic? That's not right. Harry wasn't around when Molly was learning about her magic because he was explicitly avoiding Michael due to the whole Lasciel situation. Protecting Molly didn't factor into it.

Read Chapter 15 of Death Masks.  At this point Molly is fourteen.  If you don't understand why I chose those quotes, with that context, me telling you will not provide any clarity.  Harry will pick up the coin at the end of the book and not be around Molly again until Proven Guilty.

Next I offer a speech from Chapter 34 of Turncoat.

I lifted a hand. “Don’t apologize. Maybe I’m the one who let you down. Maybe I should have taught you better.” I petted Mouse’s head gently, looking away from her. “It doesn’t matter at the moment. People have died because I’ve been trying to save Morgan’s life. Thomas might still die. And now, if we do manage to save Morgan’s crusty old ass, he’s going to report that you’ve violated your parole. The Council will kill you. And me.”
She stared at me helplessly. “I didn’t mean to—”
“Get caught,” I said quietly. “Jesus Christ, kid. I trusted you.”

Now contrast this against what he asks of her in Changes as revealed in Ghost Story.

Now read Ghost Story, starting around page 542.  I can't quote enough to give you the gist of the passage.

[Bad Alias]

I wouldn't argue that Harry hasn't hurt people. Harry is arguably a murderer. He has killed a lot of people and not people. My argument is very specific. Harry withholding information hasn't hurt anyone (in the short term because we can't predict long term effects) with the exception of not telling Murphy about the White Council and the Doom in Storm Front.

What he did in Changes doesn't really matter to that point.

I don't see the point of citing page numbers. There are so many different versions of the books it's basically pointless. I use fbreader, in which the page numbers are determined by the font the user selects.

[kbrizzle]

To be honest, I believe that Harry is correct in keeping info from people on the lower rungs of power in the DV. It is not his fault that they (Susan, Kim etc) are independent & proud - they certainly deserve most of the blame for explicitly doing things Harry tells them not to - & they pay for it. They do this because being a go-getter in the mortal world has worked out for them, but the supernatural world plays by different rules where one’s power level generally unlocks appropriately dangerous knowledge. Kim & Susan don’t understand this - Murphy is more situationally aware from her police work & I don’t recall Molly getting hurt from Harry withholding info (he hurts her unintentionally). Blaming Harry for this removes his agency, not theirs.

Most of the arguments I’ve read in this thread seem to focus on Harry not going out of his way to explain the rules & dangers of the supernatural world appropriately to the noob ladies in his life, but I disagree - no one is forcing Kim to build a circle that Harry would have trouble with or Susan to come to Bianca’s shindig where Harry is unsure he’ll make it out alive -they made these decisions with his express disapproval. Additionally I don’t think for a second that if Harry turned them down, they wouldn’t have looked elsewhere (more dangerous places) for that info which might’ve worked out even worse for them. I don’t understand the commenters who think that without Harry, Kim & Susan wouldn’t have figured out a way to dabble in the supernatural world. They are smart, dogged & connected enough to make this happen regardless of Harry - he just made it easier since he’s a good person.

It’s kinda like abortion or teen sex - whether you agree or disagree about the morality of the acts, it’s not going to dissuade the determined from going through with it even if they’re aware of the dangers.