How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...

[g33k]

  I've figured out why I object to it. My problem is two-fold:
1) First, that it claims that Harry is the reason for all the nasty stuff happening around him. Whether Harry were around or not, the problems of Storm Front, Fool Moon, Summer Knight, Death Masks, part of Blood Rites, Dead Beat (probably), possibly Proven Guilty (depending on what people's motivations were--we just don't know yet), Turn Coat (although it wouldn't have happened in Chicago), and possibly Cold Days, would still have happened. And most of them would have happened in the same place. So how is Harry considered responsible for bringing down all that trouble onto people?

You seem to have packed a lot of stuff in there; some of it unpacks, but lots of it overlaps...

Choice and free will... yeah, Harry takes more blame onto himself than he should, than is reasonable, than is true.  Hero complex, bigtime.  Guilt, etc.  He's big into "if only... " and "what if I..." and torments himself will all that.  Given that Harry is the narrator, it's easy to mistake his POV for "what we are supposed to think," but we are just seeing what Harry thinks about things, and we need to remember that's all we see.

That said...  Harry kinda-sorta IS a lightning rod.  It's not his fault that he is, but he is.

Harry realizes that there HAS to be some sort of "Black Council" because of Just How Much Shit comes to Chicago.  It gets black magic of various stripes, werewolves, Kemmlerites -- Kemmlerites, fer gawdsake, haven't been reliably seen for DECADES, and suddenly they hold their Homecoming Dance in Chi-Town??!? -- warring Faerie Queens (repeatedly), Denarians (30 of them for the whole world and they keep coming (usually in multiples) to Chicago?!), etc etc etc.  All the way back to penny-ante Sells, a marginal talent who gets MULTIPLE magics that Harry (full WC Wizard) doesn't know how to do.  "srsly, dude, wtf?"

Not being entirely stupid, Harry has concluded that something else is sending and/or luring All This Shit to his city.  Too much of it smacks of mortal magic... hence wizards... hence a Black Council.

Is that his fault?  Is any of that Harry's fault?  No, it isn't.

BUT, he's the most-visible, most-obvious Supernatural in town.  It... kinda makes sense that every Darth Bathrobe who visits has just gotta go poke him with a stick.  Just, y'know... to see.  And that makes him a "lightning rod."
 
And then we get to the whole "Starborn" business.  The books don't give us much data, beyond it being potent vs Outsiders; don't recall how much more WoJ gives.  But there's (a) possible  Fate / Destiny / Chosen One  stuff going on, and (b) possible Supernatural Attention (and maybe more) toward any Starborn.  Again -- Not Harry's Fault.  But it may still be a true thing about Harry.

[morriswalters]

@Morris: I always took the last sentence of that quote to be about the political situation more than the "how dangerous some entities are" side of it. I also think Billy knows more than Dresden thinks Billy knows, or at least he did in the earlier books.

Your right in part. But it doesn't really matter.  The Senior Council could wipe the floor with the Alphas and not break a sweat. They are as much as an existential threat as the skinwalker.  But by this point Jim has made his point about how Harry treats his allies. 

What bemuses me is that everyone seems to want Harry to be guilty of a crime if he bears the responsibility.  And it doesn't work that way.  Harry's made a choice to live the way he does and he assumes the responsibility and his moral ground.  He quotes Stan Lee often enough.

[Mira]

What bemuses me is that everyone seems to want Harry to be guilty of a crime if he bears the responsibility.  And it doesn't work that way.  Harry's made a choice to live the way he does and he assumes the responsibility and his moral ground.  He quotes Stan Lee often enough.

I don't disagree except I think Harry takes responsibility as opposed to bares responsibility..  The first is Harry feels responsible for a lot of things even when he isn't... He may take responsibility for Kirby's death, but it really wasn't his fault... As opposed to baring responsibility for reversing the curse that wiped out the Red Court..  But then again neither is all that simple...

[huangjimmy108]

1. Susan was deeply enough involved in the supernatural to trick Harry into a soulgaze. Only after that did she focus on Harry as her best avenue into the supernatural world. She would have found another way as is shown by Valmont in Skin Game talking about how easy it was. If Harry didn't advertise, but did consult, she would have found him anyway. If he didn't consult with the police, she would have likely doggedly pursued a supernatural entity that wasn't as keen as Harry was on getting attention. It's actually good for Harry because it helps his business. Almost any other entity would have killed/eaten her for the attention.

2. Harry caused Kirby's death in Turn Coat. But for Harry going to Billy's, Kirby wouldn't have been involved. Harry being the "but-for" cause does not make him responsible, either legally or morally. Legally, being the cause in fact if necessary but not sufficient for culpability. I'd say it is the same for morally, but morality is infinitely debatable. That, however, has nothing to do with whether or not Kirby died because Harry withheld information from Billy. I agree with the arguments that he did not and don't think I've seen an argument other than "Billy said so" on the other side.

Many people is involve in the supernatural world, at least pheriferally. Most members of SI for example. Most of them isn't dead. The only one confirm to died after involving himself too deeply in the supernatural world by himself is Jack Murphy. Heck, most of SI does not even get hurt that much.

Most people who get into the supernatural world via Harry however, is either dead or suffer considerable losses. That should say something.

Susan could possibly involve herself in the supernatural by herself. But without Harry's help, she is unlikely to enter into the deep end of the pool. Even if she eventually gets there, it wouldn't be that fast and if she did manage to end up in the deep end of the pool by her own skill and wit , she'll be a different person than her version in book 3. I doubt even book 3 Murphy could survive the vampire bawl. The only reason she manage to survive until now, it is  because Murphy enter into the pool step by step and under guidance.

For vanilla mortals and lower end practicianers, Harry is a big league player. Anyone who gets involve with him is playing in the deep end of the pool.

[nadia.skylark]

BUT, he's the most-visible, most-obvious Supernatural in town.  It... kinda makes sense that every Darth Bathrobe who visits has just gotta go poke him with a stick.  Just, y'know... to see.  And that makes him a "lightning rod."

Actually, most of the situations he's involved in, he involved himself rather than getting "poked with a stick." And a lot of what happened also happened due to the location or due to Marcone (so if Harry was in a different city, it wouldn't be happening around him). So once again, I don't see how he's a "lightning rod." If anything, he's more of a storm chaser.

Many people is involve in the supernatural world, at least pheriferally. Most members of SI for example. Most of them isn't dead. The only one confirm to died after involving himself too deeply in the supernatural world by himself is Jack Murphy. Heck, most of SI does not even get hurt that much.

Most people who get into the supernatural world via Harry however, is either dead or suffer considerable losses. That should say something.

Actually, most of the vanilla mortals we see involved in the supernatural world are in situations like being eaten by vampires, having made bad deals with faeries, getting killed by denarians, getting killed by vampires, or getting killed by necromancers, getting killed by faeries.

By those standards, Harry's friends are doing quite well.

[Bad Alias]

Will clearly tells him it isn't his fault...

Does he? His statement is equivocal as to whose at fault. It's definitely not someone checking Harry like Michael does in Skin Game or Murphy does in White Night. I think it's a good point. I don't agree with the conclusion, but I respect it.

It... kinda makes sense that every Darth Bathrobe who visits has just gotta go poke him with a stick.

I was thinking he usually pokes them with a stick first. Then I was reviewing, and he does the initial poking three to five times. Depends on how you count instances of good guys roping Harry into something without telling him everything that's actually going on.

What bemuses me is that everyone seems to want Harry to be guilty of a crime if he bears the responsibility.  ...  He quotes Stan Lee often enough.

I think that turns on a different understanding of the word "responsibility." For example, I take the Stan Lee quote to mean that Harry has a responsibility to act, but he isn't responsible for unforeseeable consequences of his actions. I look at responsibility closer to the culpability end of the spectrum than the cause-in-fact end of the spectrum.

Most of them isn't dead.

You sure about that? How many died in Fool Moon?

Most people who get into the supernatural world via Harry however, is either dead or suffer considerable losses.

1. Most people who get involved in the supernatural world via Harry do so because they are desperate. 2. Susan didn't get involved in the supernatural world via Harry, and honestly, neither did anyone else in the books that I can think of. They're all involved and that's how they meet Harry.

Susan could possibly involve herself in the supernatural by herself. But without Harry's help, she is unlikely to enter into the deep end of the pool. Even if she eventually gets there, it wouldn't be that fast and if she did manage to end up in the deep end of the pool by her own skill and wit , she'll be a different person than her version in book 3.

I disagree for reasons previously stated.

[huangjimmy108]

Actually, most of the situations he's involved in, he involved himself rather than getting "poked with a stick." And a lot of what happened also happened due to the location or due to Marcone (so if Harry was in a different city, it wouldn't be happening around him). So once again, I don't see how he's a "lightning rod." If anything, he's more of a storm chaser.

Actually, most of the vanilla mortals we see involved in the supernatural world are in situations like being eaten by vampires, having made bad deals with faeries, getting killed by denarians, getting killed by vampires, or getting killed by necromancers, getting killed by faeries.

By those standards, Harry's friends are doing quite well.

With the exception of those people who make deals with the fae, the rest you mention are not people who get involve with the supernatural world. They are downright victims. The supernatural get involve with them, not the other way around. Normal vanilla mortals are not very likely to bump into vampires on a daily basis, and even those who pokes around searching won't find the supernatural so easily. To suspect, to heard something, to realize the existence of the supernatural is not that difficult. To truly has an encounter with one however is not that simple, especially the high level powerhouse like a vampire Baron.

[nadia.skylark]

With the exception of those people who make deals with the fae, the rest you mention are not people who get involve with the supernatural world. They are downright victims. The supernatural get involve with them, not the other way around. Normal vanilla mortals are not very likely to bump into vampires on a daily basis, and even those who pokes around searching won't find the supernatural so easily. To suspect, to heard something, to realize the existence of the supernatural is not that difficult. To truly has an encounter with one however is not that simple, especially the high level powerhouse like a vampire Baron.

You're wrong.

[huangjimmy108]

You're wrong.

I don't think so. Book 1 for example. Even if Murphy know that Bianca is a vampire, she can tore the mask open. Bianca also does not go around sucking Murphy's blood just because Murphy is annoying her. Unless someone truly touch her bottom line, the likes of Bianca will play via mortal means. Using money and political pressure to handle matters.

So even one have contact with a supernatural like Bianca, it is not that easy to actually enter the game. This is especially true during the early part of the series. The supernatural world is still peaceful at the time, and even the war with the red court is unlikely to start so early if not for Harry triggering it. Under such a peaceful times, the supernaturals tends to hide more. Later part of the series, especially after the red court is wiped and the appearance of the fomor resulted in the loosening  of the veil of secrecy, but that is far from book 3. If Susan could survive until book 12 on her own, she'll would become a different person.

[Mira]

Does he? His statement is equivocal as to whose at fault. It's definitely not someone checking Harry like Michael does in Skin Game or Murphy does in White Night. I think it's a good point. I don't agree with the conclusion, but I respect it.

Really?  page 35 Turn Coat...

"Kirby was an adult, Dresden," Billy said. "He knew what could happen. He chose to be here."

There is nothing equivocal about that statement..  Kirby chose to put himself in harm's way.. He was an adult making adult choices..  He had chosen to be part of the pack as a werewolf long before he met Harry..   

[Mira]

So even one have contact with a supernatural like Bianca, it is not that easy to actually enter the game. This is especially true during the early part of the series. The supernatural world is still peaceful at the time, and even the war with the red court is unlikely to start so early if not for Harry triggering it. Under such a peaceful times, the supernaturals tends to hide more. Later part of the series, especially after the red court is wiped and the appearance of the fomor resulted in the loosening  of the veil of secrecy, but that is far from book 3. If Susan could survive until book 12 on her own, she'll would become a different person.

Victor Sells, self taught sorcerer making Three Eye to sell to addicts and stupid kids.. Did Harry trigger that?   Or the remote ripping out of hearts...Did Harry trigger that?  Or how secret was either one of those acts?  Or Bianca sucking the life out of her vanilla secretary because Harry brought her the news about what happened to her friend... Or the F.B.I. wearing the Hexenbelts ripping apart some people that didn't deserve it... Or the kids that Bianca groomed to either be turned or food at the party that night?  Some may have burned up because Harry let loose, but the reason they were at that party wasn't because the Red Court was just minding it's own business peacefully.. 

Susan may have become a different person by book 12, for one thing she had already paid a very heavy price for her own stupidity, that tends to change a person..

[nadia.skylark]

I don't think so. Book 1 for example. Even if Murphy know that Bianca is a vampire, she can tore the mask open. Bianca also does not go around sucking Murphy's blood just because Murphy is annoying her. Unless someone truly touch her bottom line, the likes of Bianca will play via mortal means. Using money and political pressure to handle matters.

That is because Murphy is a police officer. It is explicitly stated that the supernatural world goes out of its way to avoid involving mortal authorities.

So even one have contact with a supernatural like Bianca, it is not that easy to actually enter the game. This is especially true during the early part of the series. The supernatural world is still peaceful at the time, and even the war with the red court is unlikely to start so early if not for Harry triggering it. Under such a peaceful times, the supernaturals tends to hide more. Later part of the series, especially after the red court is wiped and the appearance of the fomor resulted in the loosening  of the veil of secrecy, but that is far from book 3. If Susan could survive until book 12 on her own, she'll would become a different person.

I agree with Mira's response here. I'd also like to add that I flat-out don't believe that if someone goes looking for vampires and gets reasonably close to them, that a vampire isn't going to eat them. Vampires, after all, need to eat, so there's no reason not to multitask and get rid of threats to the masquerade while doing so. I'd also like to note that the Churchmice involved themselves with the supernatural via stealing a magic artifact (and according to Skin Game, they were originally hired by Nicodemus) and got killed by Denarians (mostly) for their trouble. Also, you're forgetting all the minor practitioners, many or most of whom were almost certainly vanilla mortals before they went looking for the supernatural and learned a few tricks--and then got targeted by vampires as a result. Face it, the Alpha's before Harry gave them a full explanation of the supernatural world were way better off than the Ordo Lebes before Harry got involved with them.

[huangjimmy108]

That is because Murphy is a police officer. It is explicitly stated that the supernatural world goes out of its way to avoid involving mortal authorities.

I agree with Mira's response here. I'd also like to add that I flat-out don't believe that if someone goes looking for vampires and gets reasonably close to them, that a vampire isn't going to eat them. Vampires, after all, need to eat, so there's no reason not to multitask and get rid of threats to the masquerade while doing so. I'd also like to note that the Churchmice involved themselves with the supernatural via stealing a magic artifact (and according to Skin Game, they were originally hired by Nicodemus) and got killed by Denarians (mostly) for their trouble. Also, you're forgetting all the minor practitioners, many or most of whom were almost certainly vanilla mortals before they went looking for the supernatural and learned a few tricks--and then got targeted by vampires as a result. Face it, the Alpha's before Harry gave them a full explanation of the supernatural world were way better off than the Ordo Lebes before Harry got involved with them.

The average people won't get involve much, unless the supernatural is plotting something like what the white court did in book 9 or what the fomorians did after book 12. In such case, nobody is safe.

Susan for example. She is a reporter. She is looking for a scoop. The only she could keep getting into othentic supernatural news is if someone direct her into it. Without someone like Harry, she can only snoop around randomly. The likelihood she'll actually get into deep water is if she truly has rotten luck. Gotten strike by lighting on a clear day kind of rotten luck. It is possible, but unlikely.

Part of the reason why Bianca targeted her is because she is Harry's girlfriend as well. So without that layer of relationship she wouldn't get into the bawl, nor would she get the special attention andenmity from the likes of Bianca. The average vampire will only see her as just another bag of blood and there is plenty of blood bag out there. The poor, the homeless, the desperate. why should they target her?

[Mira]

Susan for example. She is a reporter. She is looking for a scoop. The only she could keep getting into othentic supernatural news is if someone direct her into it. Without someone like Harry, she can only snoop around randomly. The likelihood she'll actually get into deep water is if she truly has rotten luck. Gotten strike by lighting on a clear day kind of rotten luck. It is possible, but unlikely.

po
She was working for a supernatural rag... She was a smart driven young woman, she never snooped randomly... Reporters, good ones, don't do that... She wanted to make a big enough splash so that she could move up to a bigger paper.  That is what motivated her to steal that invitation... 

[Kindler]

My things with Kirby are that
1. when the Alphas actually engaged the Skinwalker immediately after Kirby got his throat ripped out and Andi was beaten, they successfully drove it off. They didn't beat it, or hurt it, but they put it at a temporary disadvantage long enough for it to not see enough profit in continuing the engagement. So I don't think the Alphas were defenseless. Kirby just picked up the Idiot Ball. It was like he was the character in a ghost story going to investigate the strange noise in the attic by climbing up the stairs backwards with a flashlight that keeps turning off.
2. Kirby was standing watch on the other side of the parking lot, dozens of yards away from any help. He was standing under a streetlight, as a human rather than a wolf, holding a brightly lit cellphone in his hand. He wasn't ready for a surprise attack, even though the guy was supposed to be standing watch. Dresden recognizes the danger Kirby's in, and runs out to call him back when the Skinwalker gets him.
3. If Harry Flippin' Dresden, Big Bad Brother Harry, as Butters calls him—the guy who the Alphas saw take down an entire group of Fae cavalry with one spell, a guy they've personally witnessed take on a pack of Hexenwulves AND a loup-garou, a guy with a reputation for being tough, competent, and extremely powerful (relative to them)—if THAT guy came to me, desperately calculating prime numbers to maintain his grip on his sanity, white as a sheet, telling me that he needed a dark, quiet place for an hour and a half before he was stable enough to function, and that whatever was after him was "really bad," my first response wouldn't be "Let's post two guards several dozen yards away from any kind of protection." It would be "Everyone come into my apartment; we're going to keep watch through the windows and guard ourselves behind a threshold, because something terrifying and powerful enough to send the most badass person we've ever met into gibbering madness is coming, and it's pretty obvious we should do whatever we can to protect ourselves without engaging it."

I mean, shouldn't Billy or Georgia have been smart enough to think, "Hey, maybe this thing could reduce us to insanity too?" And shouldn't Kirby have thought, "Hey, I not only have better senses as a wolf, but I'm faster, stronger, and harder to kill, so I should probably stay as a wolf while I know something dangerous is around?"

Yes, Harry led the skinwalker to the area. But a couple of things about that. 1. Harry didn't have much of a choice. There was, quite literally, nowhere else to go. He couldn't have made it back to his apartment where a threshold would have protected him in the state he was in. He couldn't hide in a crowd of people, because there would be too much noise or light for him to do what he had to. Billy's place was the only one that would be both safe and quiet enough for him to recover. And 2. They don't take Harry's warning seriously enough. Applying even an ounce of genre savviness would have been enough for the Alphas to have escaped without permanent injury.

Maybe you can argue that Harry should have given Billy the rundown on the greater supernatural world, but I don't think it would've done them any good. They already knew there were things like the Loup Garou out there that they couldn't handle. They knew that there were WolfWeres like Tera West that were old and powerful enough to train humans to turn into wolves, so they had to know that the supernatural was bigger, weirder, and more dangerous than they thought. And when you have the guy who sets the bar for humanity's stand against the Spooky Things in the Night come to you and tell you that something really bad is coming, you take all the steps you can to make sure that you and yours stay alive.