How often does Harry's withholding of information actually get people hurt...

[nadia.skylark]

...or killed (in any manner that Harry could reasonably have foreseen)?

We hear a lot about how Harry not sharing information gets people killed or injured, but I think it actually might happen less than we, or Harry, think it does.

The two examples I can think of (well, actually, I didn't think of them--they came up in a different thread, and I didn't want to derail it by talking about them there) are Susan in Grave Peril and Kirby in Turn Coat, and I don't think either of these actually qualify, even though Harry thinks they do.

For Susan, I contend that Harry actually gave her enough information to make a good decision, and that she disregarded it. Harry told her (as I recall--I don't have access to my books right now) that the Red Court was dangerous, deceitful, had a grudge against him, and most importantly that they were both capable of and likely to find a way to hurt him at the party despite sacred hospitality. Despite this, Susan forged Harry's invitation and went to the party anyway, acting as if she would be safe at the party that Harry explicitly told her was unsafe. Thus, while Harry didn't share all the information he had, he did share enough for Susan to have made a good decision, had she chosen to.

As for Kirby, I just don't think that any amount of information would have helped him against a skinwalker in that scenario. He knew that he was going up against something both powerful and dangerous--I can't think how specifics would have stopped him getting ambushed. Furthermore, even if Harry had given the Alphas a briefing about the supernatural world (like the one he gave them after Kirby's death) earlier, it almost certainly wouldn't have contained information about the skinwalker, because 1) as I recall, Harry didn't know much about them himself; 2) they're extremely rare, and Harry had no reason to expect anyone to run into them; and 3) there are very good reasons not to talk about them, because being afraid of them actually makes them stronger.

What do you guys think?

[Con]

There's also the semi-apprentice trying to create a cage with runes powerful enough to contain a Loup Garou.

[Wolfeyes]

There's also the semi-apprentice trying to create a cage with runes powerful enough to contain a Loup Garou.

I say if nothing else, this qualifies since Harry himself recognizes this was his fault. Likewise, it's been a while since I read FM but, IIRC, he also held not telling Murphy about the Loup Garou earlier as something against himself since it resulted in Murphy not trusting him and then the police trying to hold the Loup Garou before it ended in predictable carnage.

[Mira]

There's also the semi-apprentice trying to create a cage with runes powerful enough to contain a Loup Garou.

  If I remember correctly Kim wasn't totally honest with Harry as to why she wanted this circle to start with.  Also the knowledge of how to make such a thing comes very close to breaking the rules that he lives under as a wizard and he had just recently had gotten the Doom removed from his head.  He also told her she didn't have the kind of juice to make such a thing..  He also warned her as to how dangerous it was to play with such a thing, since they not only hold Loops but also could
hold summoned demons..  Her answer was it was mostly hypothetical... She never directly told him
about the Loop.

[nadia.skylark]

There's also the semi-apprentice trying to create a cage with runes powerful enough to contain a Loup Garou.

This specific example was actually why I included the "in any manner Harry could reasonably have foreseen" qualification. Kim explicitly didn't tell him why she needed the information--in fact, as I remember it (I could be wrong; I haven't read this book in a while) when Harry asked her, she lied to him and told him she wanted the knowledge for theoretical purposes. As such, the facts Harry had at hand were that A) the knowledge Kim wanted was not something that should be shared with people; and B) that if Kim attempted to use the triple circle, it would put her in danger. From that information, he could not possibly assume that not giving her more information than he did (and he did give her some information) would put her in danger--the opposite in fact, because with the information Harry had, the logical assumption was that telling her the information would put her in danger.

I say if nothing else, this qualifies since Harry himself recognizes this was his fault.

Harry blames himself for a lot of stuff that isn't his fault.

Likewise, it's been a while since I read FM but, IIRC, he also held not telling Murphy about the Loup Garou earlier as something against himself since it resulted in Murphy not trusting him and then the police trying to hold the Loup Garou before it ended in predictable carnage.

Nope. He does tell Murphy about Loup Garous quite early in the case--that's how she knows to have her earrings melted down into inherited silver bullets.

If I remember correctly Kim wasn't totally honest with Harry as to why she wanted this circle to start with.  Also the knowledge of how to make such a thing comes very close to breaking the rules that he lives under as a wizard and he had just recently had gotten the Doom removed from his head.  He also told her she didn't have the kind of juice to make such a thing..  He also warned her as to how dangerous it was to play with such a thing, since they not only hold Loops but also could
hold summoned demons..  Her answer was it was mostly hypothetical... She never directly told him
about the Loop.

This.

[Mr. Death]

I think you can still lay some fault on Harry because Harry's reaction was just, "Don't do it and I'm not going to help you do it safely."

As the whole idea of abstinence-only education has shown, that's a laughably bad way to keep someone from doing something. Harry could have inquired more about why she was interested in it, especially since she did seem determined to look deeper with or without him.

[Mira]

Here is the conversation in Fool Moon, paperback page -5 6...

Kim has just asked Harry several questions behind the theory of holding circles and how they work, she has drawn a picture of it.  He answers her about the first two rings,  then she asks about using a third...  He asks her if she copied it right..
Let's back up to the first page...  He is speaking of a full moon, then what Kim has shown him..

So I didn't know that it was one night shy of being full when a young woman sat down across from me in McAnally's pub and asked me to tell her all about something that could get her killed.
"No," I said.  "Absolutely not."  I folded the piece of paper, with the drawings of three concentric rings of spidery symbols, and slid it back over the polished oak-wood table." 

He goes on to warn her not to mess with it, even the knowledge is dangerous.  Page 2 she totally lies to him...

"Look, Harry," Kim said, "I'm not using this for anything serious, I promise.  I'm not trying any summoning or binding.  It's an academic interest only.

Page 3 Harry asks her again....

"You're sure?"  I asked her.  "This is just you trying to scratch an itch?"
"Cross my heart," she said, doing so...

He answers some of her questions and she eagerly takes notes until we get to the third inner circle..
Harry realizes there is something fishy a foot...
pages 5-6

I studied her face for a moment.  "If I read the symbols correctly, it's a third wall.  Built to withhold creatures of the flesh and the spirit.  Neither mortal nor spirit but somewhere in-between."
"What kind of creatures are like that?"
I shrugged.  "None," I said, and officially, it was true.  The White Council of wizards did not allow the discussion of demons that could be called to earth, beings of spirit that could gather flesh to themselves.  Usually a spirit circle was enough to stop all but the most powerful demons or Elder Things of the outer reaches of the Nevernever.  But this third circle was built to stop things that could transcend those kinds of boundaries. It was a cage for demonic demigods and archangels.

Harry stops giving her straight answers to her further questions and continues to warn her... She insists that she is strong enough to activate such a circle... He answers page 6

"You strength's go nothing to do with it."  I said.  "You don't have the training.  You don't have the knowledge

 

He goes on to tell her even if she did, he'd still warn her against it because if she made a mistake, it could hurt a lot of people... Then she gets pissed and stalks off...  Then on page 8

Harry adds talking to himself now...

To say nothing of what the White Council would think of a nonwizard toying with major summoning circles.  The White Council didn't take chances with things like that.  They just acted, decisively, and they weren't always particular about people's lives and safety when they did it.

1]  Kim never told Harry the truth..
2] That it was for a Loop never entered his mind, until he talked to Bob Harry had doubts that they
even existed
3] He thought he was helping her keep her head by not giving her anymore information, just knowing it was dangerous...
4] He had no idea that she was going to try and attempt it even without all the information she needed...  He really thought she had more sense...

Harry blames himself, but honestly if she wasn't willing to tell him the truth, what else could he have done but what he did do?
Mr Death

I think you can still lay some fault on Harry because Harry's reaction was just, "Don't do it and I'm not going to help you do it safely."

As the whole idea of abstinence-only education has shown, that's a laughably bad way to keep someone from doing something. Harry could have inquired more about why she was interested in it, especially since she did seem determined to look deeper with or without him.

See above, he did question her closely and she blew him off, and out and out lied to him... Consider how different it could have turned out,  if she had told him the truth about the Loop and what had happened... If I know our Harry, he would have  jumped up without finishing his steak and insisted that he be taken to the subject that so badly needed containing and do the circle himself..  However given those determined that the Loop get out, it still might not have been enough..

[nadia.skylark]

I think you can still lay some fault on Harry because Harry's reaction was just, "Don't do it and I'm not going to help you do it safely."

As the whole idea of abstinence-only education has shown, that's a laughably bad way to keep someone from doing something. Harry could have inquired more about why she was interested in it, especially since she did seem determined to look deeper with or without him.

As Mira's quotes from the book show, Harry did inquire--repeatedly--as to why she was interested, and she lied to him. That's not his fault.

It's the equivalent of this:
Person A: Teach me how to pick locks.
Person B: Why do you need to know how to pick locks? It seems like a problematic skill.
Person A: Well, I just thought it would be a cool thing to know.
Person B: Well, here's some of the theory...
Person A: Cool! Now how do I deal with *this specific type of lock*?
Person B: Are you sure you're just interested theoretically? You don't have a particular reason?
Person A: I promise, it's just theoretical. Now, where, theoretically, would I buy lock picks?
Person B: I'm not telling you that! There is no way you need to know that for theoretical reasons.

And then Person A gets mugged because she was locked out of her house all night. That's not Person B's fault.

[Mr. Death]

Fair enough, it's been a while since my last reread.

[Bad Alias]

As I recall, Harry pressed Kim a bit harder than the quotes make out. Most of the time that Harry blames himself for not giving enough information, the problem is actually that the other person has deceived or lied to Harry and then ignored his warnings of the dangers.

Kim lies and ignores Harry's warning. Susan secretly steals from Harry and ignores his warnings that the party is too dangerous for him. It's like a Navy Seal telling you he won't go on a mission in a certain country because it's too dangerous for him and his team and you going to that country so you can maybe get a promotion at work. I don't even see how telling the Alphas about everything he knows could have helped with Kirby.

The only time Harry holds back information, and it causes problems is Storm Front. If Murphy new why he was so hesitant to do the research, she would have understood why he used the other avenues first. She may have even helped him. It's possible, maybe even more likely than not, that he could have questioned Bianca in the presence, but out of earshot, of Murphy and Carmichael. Bianca and Harry may never have become out and out enemies. Murphy would have understood why he talked to Linda Randall. Now, the future might have been much darker if these things didn't happen, but it certainly caused a lot of problems for Harry and his friends. I think I might start a thread on the consequences of Harry not being straight with Murphy in Storm Front because of how far reaching they are. From that one novel, everything else follows.

[Mr. Death]

In Kirby's case, I could see it being that Harry keeping the Alphas in the dark about the level of dangers out there contributed. The Alphas, up to that point, hadn't really suffered a real loss, so they were pretty confident in what they could do. Harry helped keep them that way by not telling them a lot of what was out there.

If Kirby had known, for instance, that Harry was being pursued by something on the Skinwalker's level, he might have been a bit more cautious rather than strolling back talking on a cell phone that lit up his face and made him a target.

[Bad Alias]

Maybe. Maybe not. We don't really know what Harry's told them about the dangers out there. Harry wasn't prepared for the skinwalker, so I have a hard time imagining he could have sufficiently prepared the Alphas.

The bottom line is that the case of Kirby is a weak argument for Harry's withholding of information being harmful.

[morriswalters]

Maybe. Maybe not. We don't really know what Harry's told them about the dangers out there. Harry wasn't prepared for the skinwalker, so I have a hard time imagining he could have sufficiently prepared the Alphas.

The bottom line is that the case of Kirby is a weak argument for Harry's withholding of information being harmful.

Well, evidently Billy thought so.

“I mean that for years, I’ve been willing to help you, even though you could barely ever tell me what was actually happening. You’ve played everything close to the chest. And I know you had your reasons for that.” He stopped walking and looked up at me calmly. “Kirby’s dead. Maybe Andi, too.”
My conscience wouldn’t let me meet his gaze, even for an instant. “I know.”
He nodded. “So. If I’d had this conversation with you sooner, maybe they wouldn’t be. Maybe if we’d had a better idea about what’s actually going on in the world, it would have changed how we approached things. They follow my lead, Harry. I have a responsibility to make sure that I do everything in my power to make them aware and safe.”
“Yeah,” I said. “I can see your point.”
“Then if you want my help, things are going to change. I’m not charging ahead blindfolded again. Not ever.”

[Bad Alias]

He thought it might have made a difference. I just don't see how it would have. The problem is we don't really know that much about how and what the Alphas do. It's mentioned repeatedly how hard it is to impress the dangers of the world on the young, so I'm not sure Harry could have changed anything by informing the Alphas that there are great and terrible powers out there.

I would have insisted on full disclosure if I were Billy too. I'm not a "no questions asked" kind of guy if I'm helping someone do something. It doesn't even have to be a dangerous something.

[Mira]

He thought it might have made a difference. I just don't see how it would have. The problem is we don't really know that much about how and what the Alphas do. It's mentioned repeatedly how hard it is to impress the dangers of the world on the young, so I'm not sure Harry could have changed anything by informing the Alphas that there are great and terrible powers out there.

I would have insisted on full disclosure if I were Billy too. I'm not a "no questions asked" kind of guy if I'm helping someone do something. It doesn't even have to be a dangerous something.

Especially when they themselves are werewolves and young, they might think they are pretty invulnerable...