Author Topic: Who is on the Grey Council?  (Read 7633 times)

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Who is on the Grey Council?
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2019, 04:07:19 AM »
@nadia
While that may be the case (as seen with the Lacuna/ Harry example in CD), imagine what would happen if a Queen puts a geas on the Fae in question - it would severely limit their ability to aid the GC.

Or maybe the Fae are not allowed to make oaths that would allow them to keep big secrets from their Queens. Not to mention, what if the Fae in question is on his/her Queens job when the GC needs their help? A mortal may be able to re-prioritize, it would be much harder for a Fae.

For this reason I think individual Fae may be tertiary allies of the GC, but not on it.

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Who is on the Grey Council?
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2019, 05:19:13 AM »
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While that may be the case (as seen with the Lacuna/ Harry example in CD), imagine what would happen if a Queen puts a geas on the Fae in question - it would severely limit their ability to aid the GC.

Or maybe the Fae are not allowed to make oaths that would allow them to keep big secrets from their Queens. Not to mention, what if the Fae in question is on his/her Queens job when the GC needs their help? A mortal may be able to re-prioritize, it would be much harder for a Fae.

All of your concerns would hold true for any member of the Grey Council who is also a member of another organization. Mortals "may be able to re-prioritize" but there's no reason to count on all of them doing so, and indeed no reason to assume that in every case they would be right to drop everything when the Grey Council says so. I mean, imagine what would have happened if Harry had done as he was ordered and joined the Grey Council for their meeting in Changes?

I think the Grey Council pretty much has to accept that the majority of their members are not, in fact, going to be on call 24/7, and that they have to work around that.

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: Who is on the Grey Council?
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2019, 05:27:45 PM »
@nadia
I guess it’s possible if the Fae in question is able to reconcile the goals of the Grey council with that of its Court & then wishes of the Queen. Given that we don’t really know what the full agenda of the Gray Council is, it’s hard to tell if someone like Eldest Gruff could be on it without violating one of Titania’s many rules (such as helping Harry - could a Summer Fae have shown up at Chichen Itza in Changes without violating Titania’s rule about Harry?)

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Who is on the Grey Council?
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2019, 05:35:55 PM »
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I guess it’s possible if the Fae in question is able to reconcile the goals of the Grey council with that of its Court & then wishes of the Queen. Given that we don’t really know what the full agenda of the Gray Council is, it’s hard to tell if someone like Eldest Gruff could be on it without violating one of Titania’s many rules (such as helping Harry - could a Summer Fae have shown up at Chichen Itza in Changes without violating Titania’s rule about Harry?)

True. I'm pretty sure it was stated that a major goal of the Grey Council was to oppose the Black Council, and since we now know that at least some of what was attributed to the Black Council was actually Nemesis, it seems natural to me that they would have a faerie or two working with them. I like Eldest Gruff for this both because he's a powerful wizard in his own right, and because he has been shown to be trusted by and able to influence Titania, so her interference with him is likely to be minimal.

But you're right, it depends on who knows what about Nemesis and what the Grey Council's other goals may be.

Offline g33k

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Re: Who is on the Grey Council?
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2019, 08:29:48 PM »
... I like Eldest Gruff for this both because he's a powerful wizard in his own right, and because he has been shown to be trusted by and able to influence Titania, so her interference with him is likely to be minimal...
How about Big T as the "member" of the GC, but E.Gruff as her proxy, the one who "mostly" shows up, when showing-up is called for?
 

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Who is on the Grey Council?
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2019, 03:41:35 AM »
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How about Big T as the "member" of the GC, but E.Gruff as her proxy, the one who "mostly" shows up, when showing-up is called for?

Maybe. Although, going by Cold Days, Titania doesn't seem motivated to interfere with much of anything, so I'm not sure why she'd join, as opposed to going "Oh, fine, you can do it if it's so important," to Eldest Gruff.

Offline g33k

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Re: Who is on the Grey Council?
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2019, 05:45:49 AM »
Maybe. Although, going by Cold Days, Titania doesn't seem motivated to interfere with much of anything, so I'm not sure why she'd join, as opposed to going "Oh, fine, you can do it if it's so important," to Eldest Gruff.
I don't think they'd have him.

He is subject to Summer's 3 Queen's, and I doubt ANY mortal could phrase an oath he could swear, that one of the Queens could not find a way to slither around.

Then there's the simple fact that he's part of Summer, and I bet at least the Queen Who Is and the Queen Who Was can just choose to BE anywhere E.Gruff is, no warding applies because part of her is already there.

ONLY the Queens themselves (among the fae) are free-enough from external command that a security-critical group like the GC could risk having them privy to top-level GC secrets & identities.

You may be right about Titania, her odd passivity and/or her hate-on for Harry.  She may not care enough, or be willing to aid the mortal wizards.

Of course, E.Gruff could be working for the GC not _AS_ the GC but just "working with" a particular wizard (such as Eb or (eventually) Harry) who happens to be a GC member...

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Who is on the Grey Council?
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2019, 06:35:07 AM »
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He is subject to Summer's 3 Queen's, and I doubt ANY mortal could phrase an oath he could swear, that one of the Queens could not find a way to slither around.

But why would they want to? And why is it relevant? That's the point I'm trying to make.

I mean, you could just as easily say "I doubt any mortal wizard could beat Titania in a magic duel," but A) Titania's almost certainly not going to start magically attacking wizards without a good reason; and B) The possibility that she might do so (or that she might possibly acquire a reason) is not going to stop the Grey Council from having wizards on it.

Offline Maz

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Re: Who is on the Grey Council?
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2019, 01:25:25 PM »
I don't think either the Summer or Winter Courts could join nor be permitted to join due to balance.

If you permit just Summer to join, Winter would most likely need to oppose and vice-versa if you permitted Winter to join instead.

That leaves an option of both joining but we haven't seen much cooperation ever out of them.  In fact, they almost need to be opposed, per information we've received through the story.  Mab exists to defend the gates.  Titania exists to protect us from Mab.  That Winter grossly outguns Summer but Titania can drag Mab down with her. That the Winter Knight exists to take out folks Mab can't and the Summer Knight is there to oppose him.  Etc etc.

Offline g33k

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Re: Who is on the Grey Council?
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2019, 03:27:32 PM »
But why would they want to? And why is it relevant? That's the point I'm trying to make. 
If secrets are like crack cocaine for wizards, then for the Fae it is the very air they breathe.  A Faerie Queen confronted with a mortal secret involving one of her courtiers??!?  Not gonna stay secret for very long...

And any security-conscious group (of which the GC is a prime exemplar) is going to be HIGHLY averse to having a powerful, capricious creature like a FQ sticking her nose in because one of their Councilors is also in the Court of said FQ.

If they can induce one of the FQ's to join, then it becomes the secret of said FQ, and she'll protect it like she does all her secrets.
 

Offline g33k

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Re: Who is on the Grey Council?
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2019, 03:54:20 PM »
I don't think either the Summer or Winter Courts could join nor be permitted to join due to balance.

If you permit just Summer to join, Winter would most likely need to oppose and vice-versa if you permitted Winter to join instead.
This is a valid point!  OTOH, it's not like the GC is some cosmic-scale tipping-point...

It's a secret, largely political/investigatory sub-group of WC wizards (mostly; as noted, there may be other entities) trying to figure out the infiltration/betrayal of the WC by this "BC" or "Circle" or whoever they are -- and THAT group (the BC) in turn may be a group similarly centered around dissatisfied WC wizards.

In terms of Summer -v- Winter, it may look like a school-yard argument, as seen by business-executives in the office-building across the street.

The FQ's may not care about the "balance" involved in GC membership, because there's no effect.

Of course, that analogy also leaves them with a can't-be-bothered-to-join perspective, even if they got invited.  Why would a business executive join a schoolyard clique???


  That leaves an option of both joining but we haven't seen much cooperation ever out of them.  In fact, they almost need to be opposed, per information we've received through the story.  Mab exists to defend the gates.  Titania exists to protect us from Mab.  That Winter grossly outguns Summer but Titania can drag Mab down with her. 
I wouldn't dismiss "dual" membership so readily.

First:  recall that the most-potent Queens, the Mothers, apparently co-habit readily.  I think Summer and Winter have shared interests (it remains to be seen whether the GC overlaps with such interests).

Second:  even if they'd chafe, they wouldn't have to meet -- as I understand it, the GC has a "cell" structure, where GC members mostly only know other GC members in their own cell, and only Eb knows everyone (or maybe not even him).  But there could be one cell with Summer and a different cell with Winter, with those 2 cells never meeting together...


Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Who is on the Grey Council?
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2019, 07:38:24 PM »
While the courts are unlikely to work in concert, they do work in the same direction. When Mab didn't declare war on the Red Court at the same time as Titania, everyone was surprised. Additionally, at the outer gates, the courts do work in concert.

My point is that it is possible for them to have the same goals and/or to work in concert; not that it is likely.

Also Vadderung is on the Grey Council. He's got some pretty strong fairy ties.

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Who is on the Grey Council?
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2019, 10:26:35 PM »
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If you permit just Summer to join, Winter would most likely need to oppose and vice-versa if you permitted Winter to join instead.

Not necessarily. When Mab allowed the White Council to use her Ways, Titania didn't send a bunch of Summer fae to prevent the wizards using them. When Summer launched an attack on the Red Court to help the White Council, Winter didn't launch an attack on the White Council to help the Red Court.

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If secrets are like crack cocaine for wizards, then for the Fae it is the very air they breathe.  A Faerie Queen confronted with a mortal secret involving one of her courtiers??!?  Not gonna stay secret for very long...

Who's confronting them with secrets? Confronting in general seems like an awful way to keep something a secret. And Titania, like I said earlier, seems far too apathetic to interfere in stuff that doesn't make itself obvious.

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And any security-conscious group (of which the GC is a prime exemplar) is going to be HIGHLY averse to having a powerful, capricious creature like a FQ sticking her nose in because one of their Councilors is also in the Court of said FQ.

Or is going to want to let the counselor in in the hopes of getting help from said faerie queen, even if this queen doesn't want to join.