Who is on the Grey Council?

[g33k]

Like it says on the tin...

Eb, for sure.  Founder after all!
Harry, as a "junior" member.

Vadderung, almost certainly.
Rashid, I think.
Listens to Wind, I think.
Ancient Mai, I think.
Mab (if they can bring themselves to trust her enough; or identify sufficient risk-mitigation).
...
After that, I'm really unsure.

[nadia.skylark]

I doubt Rashid is on it; he's probably too busy. And I doubt Mab is on it, both because I doubt they would trust her under normal circumstances and because I doubt that Harry was the only person Maeve tried to convince that Mab was crazy.

I could see Eldest Gruff being part of the Grey Council, though. And if the Merlin's not on it himself (which I don't believe he is) there's probably someone on it that reports to him, given the strike force in Changes and the Merlin's claim that he was going to see the Red Court wiped out.

[peregrine]

I can't imagine that all of Eb, Rashid, LtW, and Mai are on the Grey Council, because that would give them a majority on the Senior Council.

[Beldon]

If LTW is on the grey council there are more than 12 members. Eb told Harry he was out of commission at that time. Rashid is a maybe, Harry doesn't remark on any others being overly tall, and Rashid is taller than Harry.
I have a crazy thought though after going through changes recently, I think Arthur Langtree is a member. Officially he denies things, but he is too smart to not realize things are up so politically he needs to hold that line. Personally though he wants to hit back.

[narphoenix]

We know that, when Changes rolled around, we had seen a total of six members of the Grey Council other than Eb, Harry, and Vadderung, at least according to Jim.

We know that Eb recruited GC members, so we have to think about it from his point of view. Otherwise excellent candidates for GC membership get ruled out because Eb isn’t inclined to recruit, say, vampires, or else I would have placed a bet on Lara Raith.

Listens to Wind, an otherwise excellent candidate, gets mostly ruled out because, as was pointed out earlier, he was out of commission in changes. I say “mostly” on the basis of it being totally possible we were lied to.

Rashid is a possibility, but I’m going to cast doubt on it: he’s too subtle to do something so overt as join a counterconspiracy. For similar reasons, I’m going to rule out Arthur Langtry.

I was previously placing bets on Lily, but Cold Days made that difficult to back up.

Obviously, we can rule out the Fellowship who joined Harry directly, unless they can be in two places at once.

If you held a gun to my head to place money on the table, closest I can do is Strength of a River in his Shoulders. He’s the only person I can think of who isn’t associated with people Eb wouldn’t touch with sufficient power to be on the Grey Council.

[nadia.skylark]

We know that, when Changes rolled around, we had seen a total of six members of the Grey Council other than Eb, Harry, and Vadderung, at least according to Jim

Assuming that they're all spellcasters, what about:

1) Chandler
2) Eldest Gruff
3) Martha Liberty
4) Klaus Schneider
5) "Bluebeard"
6) Nicodemus (okay, he doesn't really qualify for the spell caster thing, but...)

If you held a gun to my head to place money on the table, closest I can do is Strength of a River in his Shoulders. He’s the only person I can think of who isn’t associated with people Eb wouldn’t touch with sufficient power to be on the Grey Council.

Doesn't he really object to fighting, though?

[KurtinStGeorge]

Both Mab and Rashid can't be on the Grey Council because one of them has to be available at the Outer Gates when needed.  Seeing as Rashid is often unavailable for ordinary Council works he must spend a large amount of time there. 

Furthermore, Mab can't be a member of the Grey Council.  It's not that her magical strength would probably have allowed her to obliterate any of the Lords of Outer Night, making them rather pointless; though that might be a good argument from a writing perspective.  The real reason is Mab had to be available to defend her own realm.  In Changes Mab might have had a shiny new Knight in Harry, but while he was rescuing his daughter Winter effectively didn't have a Knight.  Mab also loaned out her most powerful vassal; Lea, to Harry, and Maeve being nemfected was at best worthless and at worst a threat to Winter in her own right.  Mab needed to keep an eye on her daughter and probably keep her from finding out what was going on.  This probably means that Rashid can't be member of the Grey Council either because if Mab is guarding Winter, that leaves Rashid on Gate duty.  It doesn't rule him out completely, but I think it makes the Gate Keeper something of a long shot. 

I used to believe that because it was stated the LTW became sick he couldn't be on the Grey Council.  However, I believe we may discover some of the information we learned from Chandler's letters to Harry is false.  (I'm not saying that Chandler is a liar, just some of the information he passed on to Harry was incomplete because Chandler wasn't fully clued-in to what was actually occurring.)  LTW may have seen others getting sick and decided it was a good time for him to disappear for a while.  There's no way to know this is the case, but it's a possibility I can't completely dismiss.

I won't be surprised if a few of the older Wardens; the ones that don't fully trust Harry, are on the Grey Council.  Harry called them hard cases.  They probably had a lot in common with Donald Morgan; but didn't have the personal connection to Arthur Langtry that Warden Morgan did.  They sure as hell wouldn't have trusted Cristos' peace plan with the vampires.  They would have joined the Grey Council because they trusted Eb, and were tired of seeing their numbers diminish with every battle against the Red Court.  Even though they didn't fully trust Harry, once Peabody was unmasked as a traitor, a few of the older Wardens may have been impressed with the lengths Harry went to, to exonerate Morgan, even though he didn't succeed.  The only older Warden we know by name; other than Captain Luccio, is Warden Thorsen, and he kept Harry from bleeding to death after his fight with Peabody. (That's right in the first sentence of Chapter 49 of Turn Coat.)  So I think Thorsen; and maybe one or two other older Wardens, will be on the Grey Council.

What I can't figure out are the "key allies" that Ebenezer mentioned, other than Vadderung of course. The Erl King likes to do his own thing, hunting.  There weren't any giant shadow hounds at Chicken Pizza, so that rules him out.  Eldest Gruff?  I suppose he has the ability, I'm just not seeing him being enough of a free agent to be a member, but maybe after the events of Small Favor he became concerned about the big picture and decided to become involved.  How Eldest Gruff would know Ebenezer is another question, Eb has been around long enough for them to have met sometime in the past.

[nadia.skylark]

I won't be surprised if a few of the older Wardens; the ones that don't fully trust Harry, are on the Grey Council.  Harry called them hard cases.  They probably had a lot in common with Donald Morgan; but didn't have the personal connection to Arthur Langtry that Warden Morgan did.  They sure as hell wouldn't have trusted Cristos' peace plan with the vampires.  They would have joined the Grey Council because they trusted Eb, and were tired of seeing their numbers diminish with every battle against the Red Court.  Even though they didn't fully trust Harry, once Peabody was unmasked as a traitor, a few of the older Wardens may have been impressed with the lengths Harry went to, to exonerate Morgan, even though he didn't succeed.  The only older Warden we know by name; other than Captain Luccio, is Warden Thorsen, and he kept Harry from bleeding to death after his fight with Peabody. (That's right in the first sentence of Chapter 49 of Turn Coat.)  So I think Thorsen; and maybe one or two other older Wardens, will be on the Grey Council.

This makes sense.

Eldest Gruff?  I suppose he has the ability, I'm just not seeing him being enough of a free agent to be a member, but maybe after the events of Small Favor he became concerned about the big picture and decided to become involved.  How Eldest Gruff would know Ebenezer is another question, Eb has been around long enough for them to have met sometime in the past.

Well, we know that Eldest Gruff has had interactions with people high up in the White Council, because he's killed three Senior Council members. And given his personality, I can see him convincing people who saw or heard about those fights that they were necessary or that he just couldn't get out of doing it, and he was a good guy really.

[Mira]

Somehow I doubt that Ancient Mai is on the Council,  just a gut feeling about her.

[morriswalters]

Vadderung, Lea and Mab, work together to get the GC to Chichen Itza. In Cold Days it is shown that Vadderung in one of his personas has  a personal relationship  with Eldest Gruff.  They could be considered fellow travelers, sometimes throwing in when goals intersect.

[g33k]

I am not seeing Eldest Gruff on the GC (or any other Faerie who isn't the head of their own Court).  Any of them, even Eldest Gruff, could be commanded by their respective Queen(s) to spill GC secrets or even betray the GC utterly; AFAICT the Fae give their monarchs absolute obedience to any direct order, and that's too huge a security hole.

OTOH, I could see Eldest Gruff on the GC if Titania and/or Mother Summer was on it the GC.

[groinkick]

Goodman Grey.....  Because his last name says so.

[morriswalters]

I am not seeing Eldest Gruff on the GC (or any other Faerie who isn't the head of their own Court).  Any of them, even Eldest Gruff, could be commanded by their respective Queen(s) to spill GC secrets or even betray the GC utterly; AFAICT the Fae give their monarchs absolute obedience to any direct order, and that's too huge a security hole.

OTOH, I could see Eldest Gruff on the GC if Titania and/or Mother Summer was on it the GC.

I don't see a formal structure to the GC.   And common goals don't mean common agendas.  Maybe a small council of peers.  Mother Summer once asks Harry if he thought that Mab spent all of her time dealing with back stabbing courtiers.  At least on the surface that would infer that the Fae all don't always dance to the tune of the Queens.

[kbrizzle]

I don’t think Fae can really join the Grey Council - as g33k points out, they are not free-willed enough to allow the GC to accomplish its goals in secrecy. Odin is shown to be a member, not Kringle. Also, most Fae aren’t allowed to meddle in mortal affairs without express cause - that’s what they have the Knights for.

I took the Grey Council to mean mortal, or mortal-ish wizards & their allies. Being able to go to fight at Chichen Itza last minute (they wouldn’t have come if Harry didn’t tell Eb that’s where he was heading a couple of hours before he got there) requires free will & an ability to act with impunity. Lea is only able to go because Mab gives her permission & because the Reds had insulted her by giving her the athame - there is a reason Mab doesn’t send a small army with Lea to assist Harry.

Therefore, the ones who make the most sense as being on the GC are the wizards Eb summons before the WC meeting in SK before Harry’s trial (since he trusts them) - Martha Liberty & Injun Joe. Odin is clearly a member as well. I think Chandler & Ramirez are too junior to be on it - Harry is likely the junior-most person on the GC (as far as he is on it).

@groinkick
I like that idea, although I’m sure he would’ve mentioned to Harry that he was at Chichen Itza (which would’ve made Harry trust him more). No reason he can’t join post-SG though.

[nadia.skylark]

I am not seeing Eldest Gruff on the GC (or any other Faerie who isn't the head of their own Court).  Any of them, even Eldest Gruff, could be commanded by their respective Queen(s) to spill GC secrets or even betray the GC utterly; AFAICT the Fae give their monarchs absolute obedience to any direct order, and that's too huge a security hole.

Not necessarily. If a faerie swears an oath not to reveal the Grey Council's secrets, I don't think even the Queens can make them break their word.