Further proof that black magic is connected to Outsiders

[g33k]

I believe that Lily became the Summer Lady not Knight.  

Lily got the Knight's mantle as part of Aurora's plot to destabilize the Summer/Winter balance.

When Aurora died, there was Summer-Changeling Lily, freshly Summer-flavored from the Knight's mantle, when Whups! SummerLady Mantle Needs a New Home!
 

[Bad Alias]

There have actually been more new Ladies than new Knights, and that seems very out-of-line for how the Mother/Queen/Lady/Knight structures are supposed to work...

New Ladys:

• Lily
• Sarissa
• Molly

New Knights:

• Lily
• Fix
• Harry

Right?

[g33k]

New Knights:

• Lily
• Fix
• Harry

Right?

No, Lily was not a Knight.  She was used to hide the mantle, but never acted in any capacity as Knight, nor was she allowed any opportunity to do so.  The essence of being a Knight is doing Knight-stuff.

[Bad Alias]

Being a Knight is a state of being. Slate was the Knight until Harry killed him. Lily was the Knight until she was the Lady. Furthermore, if Summer works at all like Winter, Lily had to choose to be the Knight.

[morriswalters]

Being a Knight is a state of being. Slate was the Knight until Harry killed him. Lily was the Knight until she was the Lady. Furthermore, if Summer works at all like Winter, Lily had to choose to be the Knight.

My initial response was WTF, but then I found this.

"And it isn't with one of the Queens."
"True," Summer said. "We would sense it, were it so."
"So it's already in another Knight," I said. "But if that was true, there'd be no imbalance." I scratched at my head, and as I did it slowly dawned on me. "Unless it had been changed. Unless the new Knight had been changed. Transformed into something else. Something that left the power trapped, inert, useless."

Which goes to show that you should always test your first impressions.

[Bad Alias]

I mean, I could see getting behind an argument that Lily wasn't the Summer Knight when she was a statue, because, well, she was a statue. But she had to have been the Knight before (and after) she was the statue, or there wouldn't have been an imbalance.

[g33k]

I mean, I could see getting behind an argument that Lily wasn't the Summer Knight when she was a statue, because, well, she was a statue. But she had to have been the Knight before (and after) she was the statue, or there wouldn't have been an imbalance.

I guess that works...  She was SK for a moment, then she was a statue (taking the knight-mantle out of play, hence imbalance), then she was SK for another moment, then she was SL.

The SK mantle was there all along, but it was hidden... REALLY hidden.  If Titania cannot even FIND her Knight / mantle -- to which she is mystically attuned/attached -- it says something about whether said "Knight" is in fact BEING a Knight.  Hence, imbalance.

Still...  From the POV where it was originally raised (the passing of a Mantle) I guess the SK mantle DOES pass to Lily during the course of the books (just before the start of SK (the novel)).  I'm still disinclude this one from any attempt to draw conclusions -- I don't think the books give any details of Lily's "Knighting" but given Aurora arranged it under influence of N'fection, I suspect it isn't a datum from which to generalize about how things do/should work.

[Bad Alias]

It is of limited value. It implies some things, all/most of which I think were already stated by Bob, so how helpful is that?

[morriswalters]

Still...  From the POV where it was originally raised (the passing of a Mantle) I guess the SK mantle DOES pass to Lily during the course of the books (just before the start of SK (the novel)).  I'm still disinclude this one from any attempt to draw conclusions -- I don't think the books give any details of Lily's "Knighting" but given Aurora arranged it under influence of N'fection, I suspect it isn't a datum from which to generalize about how things do/should work.

Good luck on working that out.  I don't think Jim has. However, this.

"How does the mantle pass on from one Knight to the next?"
Mother Summer smiled, but the expression was a grim one. "It returns to the nearest reflection of itself. To the nearest vessel of Summer. She, in turn, chooses the next Knight."

It's conceivable that Mab could have shoved the Mantle onto Harry since evidently Aurora did to Lily.  But Aurora was always going to kill Lily and give the mantle to Slate so it wouldn't have mattered if Lily objected.  Harry on the other hand would have been a pissed off Knight with murder in his eyes.

[Bad Alias]

I'm not certain Aurora forced the mantle onto Lily. I'm not sure she could. If she could, that's where I'd put my money.

[Mira]

I'm not certain Aurora forced the mantle onto Lily. I'm not sure she could. If she could, that's where I'd put my money.

I might be wrong but I think Aurora turned Lily into a statue first, then hid the mantle inside her.

[Bad Alias]

Is there something that makes you think that, or is it just an impression?

[Mira]

Is there something that makes you think that, or is it just an impression?

I seem to remember that is how Harry explained what happened to the Summer Knight mantle after the murder, but it has been a while.  At no time was Lily the Summer Knight, so that is the logical explanation.  I don't have time at the moment to find the actual quote.

[Mira]

Okay, here is as close as I can find to what I am talking about.  Summer Knight page 295 Harry is about to get the Unraveling from the Mothers.

"Hold it, hold it.  Look, as I understand it, this power of the Summer Knight, is his mantle, it can't exist on its own.  It has to be inside a vessel."
"Yes," Winter murmured.  "Within one of the Queens, or within the Knight."
"And it isn't with one of the Queens,"
"True," Summer said.  "We would sense it, were it so."
"So it's already in another Knight," I said.  "But if that was true, there'd be no imbalance." I scratched my head, and as I did it slowly dawned on me.  "Unless it had been changed.  Unless the new Knight had been changed.  Transformed into something else.  Something that left the power trapped, inert, useless."

However you are right, later Harry tells Aurora that she killed the Summer Knight, but the mantle in Lily, then turned her to stone...  However one would think even if it were almost instantaneous that
Mab or at the very least the Mothers would have been aware..  Yet the Mothers forced Harry to figure it out instead of just telling him. 

[Bad Alias]

However one would think even if it were almost instantaneous that Mab or at the very least the Mothers would have been aware..  Yet the Mothers forced Harry to figure it out instead of just telling him.

Maybe only the Mothers can sense it. Is "we" the all the Queens or just the Mothers? They also imply, but do not state, that they wouldn't feel it in a Knight. If that is the case, perhaps there is a way for a queen to direct the mantle without it first being in the queen. Maybe all the Queens knew that the Knight had been changed into something else already because that's the only thing that could have happened, but no one bothered to tell Harry.