Earth magic responsible for weapons skill?

[Mr. Death]

Discipline and control, not Conviction and power.

Anyway, it's probably okay at 2 Refresh. But as Mr. Death says, those control bonuses are a big deal.

Honestly, I wouldn't allow it at all.

With the way it stacks the already hefty bonuses to Evocation, there's no reason any spell-slinger wouldn't take this and immediately be able to completely dominate in a straight fight.

[Sanctaphrax]

Four weapon 9 accuracy 10 sight-ranged (potentially zone-wide) attacks is in most battles much stronger than an unlimited number of weapon 3 accuracy 10 weapon-ranged attacks.

[nadia.skylark]

At that point it hardly matters what the weapon rating is, since most monsters' dodge skills top out at 3.

Really? I thought that dodging was based on the Athletics skill, and that it got a bonus for speed powers.

This isn't a mere skill substitution. It's allowing for high-powered, free attacks that would not be possible otherwise.

No. It's upping the power of attacks that would definitely be possible otherwise. If you don't have a sword, then you can't attack your monsters with a sword. If you have a broken wrist, that should be compellable to make a punch not possible.

If this power is such a game-breaker, you're not being particularly creative with your monsters.

With the way it stacks the already hefty bonuses to Evocation, there's no reason any spell-slinger wouldn't take this and immediately be able to completely dominate in a straight fight.

Because wizards and such tend to be rather short on refresh, and there are other things they can spend it on. (Also because some people care about giving their character appropriate powers rather than just strong ones.)

Anyway, it's probably okay at 2 Refresh.

Okay, I don't mind making it 2 refresh.

[Mr. Death]

Really? I thought that dodging was based on the Athletics skill, and that it got a bonus for speed powers.

Check Our World sometime; the average monster is statted so that its dodge is at 3, with Ghouls and a couple others something of an outlier at 4 and 5.

And the Speed bonuses top out at +3; so even if a monster is starting from a 5 in Athletics, every attack the person with this stunt throws can be 2 above that.

No. It's upping the power of attacks that would definitely be possible otherwise. If you don't have a sword, they can't attack your monsters with a sword. If you have a broken wrist, that should be compellable to make a punch not possible.

If this power is such a game-breaker, you're not being particularly creative with your monsters.

It's not possible to have 10-base attack rolls for something without taking stress for each attack.

And if you have to rewrite all the monsters in the game to accommodate it, yes, it's a game-breaker.

Because wizards and such tend to be rather short on refresh, and there are other things they can spend it on. (Also because some people care about giving their character appropriate powers rather than just strong ones.)

One of the caster's few weaknesses is that their stress tracks effectively limit how many big attacks they can pull off, especially as they might want to use that stress for maneuvers or blocks instead.

This effectively removes that limit, and given how the attack roll stacks damage on top of the weapon roll, that's a pretty big deal, especially since further refinements can keep stacking it.

It also means the four refresh you'd have to divide between attacking and defending are completely free to defend, lessening the burden of the Paranet Papers' suggestion of using instant spells for defense rolls.

Four weapon 9 accuracy 10 sight-ranged (potentially zone-wide) attacks is in most battles much stronger than an unlimited number of weapon 3 accuracy 10 weapon-ranged attacks.

Maybe, but there's still a functional limit and real risk associated with it. Evocation is powerful, sure, and it's supposed to be, but it's also not supposed to be something you can use all day.

I mean, look at Breath Weapon, which would work similarly to this. For one, it's only Weapon:2, and it doesn't allow for a bunch of stacked bonuses to make it auto-hit every round.

[Mr. Death]

Looking at the actual passage, it says

Instead of some
electromagnetic distortion zapping people, an
earth attack might look as though the wizard
was really, really good at hand-to-hand fighting,
always managing to slip past the opponent’s
defense.

I honestly don't see any reason you couldn't represent that by just rolling an Earth evocation like normal and flavoring it as him using the sword, because that's more what it seems to be saying.

I had a warden NPC of the Eastern school of magic that used her metal evocations the same way.

[nadia.skylark]

And the Speed bonuses top out at +3; so even if a monster is starting from a 5 in Athletics, every attack the person with this stunt throws can be 2 above that.

It's not possible to have 10-base attack rolls for something without taking stress for each attack.

Okay, let me see if I can figure out how much refresh you'd have to spend to get a base-10 attack using this power. I'll assume you have a Conviction of 5.

First, evocation is -3 refresh.

Then, to get a +5 earth power bonus, you need to account for the skill pyramid in evocation bonuses, so you need (5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 - 1)/2 = -7 refresh worth of refinements.

Then this power is -2 refresh.

So that comes out to -12 refresh...if you let someone buy this power with just evocation. I wouldn't; I'd say that, similar to the way you have to have a certain number of refinements to buy the mental toughness powers, you'd have to be a full wizard with at least inhuman mental toughness to buy any stressless spellcasting power.

Thaumaturgy is -3 refresh.

The Sight is -1 refresh.

Inhuman mental toughness is -2 refresh.

So now it costs -18 refresh. ...Honestly, at that power level, I don't think having this kind of attack is unreasonable.

And if you have to rewrite all the monsters in the game to accommodate it, yes, it's a game-breaker.

I'm not saying "rewrite all the monsters in the game," I'm saying "have attacks happen when the wizard doesn't have his/her weapon," "stage ambushes," "use snipers," "have monsters throw a bomb in the wizard's house," "make the wizard deal with drive-by shootings"--you know, the ways we've seen wizards get attacked in the books.

One of the caster's few weaknesses is that their stress tracks effectively limit how many big attacks they can pull off, especially as they might want to use that stress for maneuvers or blocks instead.

This effectively removes that limit, and given how the attack roll stacks damage on top of the weapon roll, that's a pretty big deal, especially since further refinements can keep stacking it.

It also means the four refresh you'd have to divide between attacking and defending are completely free to defend, lessening the burden of the Paranet Papers' suggestion of using instant spells for defense rolls.

You don't have wizards attack/get attacked much in the Nevernever in your games, do you? Because the stressless casting I'm using is adapted directly from what Paranet Papers says that all wizards get in the Nevernever.

I honestly don't see any reason you couldn't represent that by just rolling an Earth evocation like normal and flavoring it as him using the sword, because that's more what it seems to be saying.

Because I have objections to letting any attack that's supposedly made with, say, a weapon:1 knife, a weapon:2 or 3 sword, or a weapon:0 fist count as a weapon:10 attack, and that's what this would accomplish.

[Mr. Death]

Okay, let me see if I can figure out how much refresh you'd have to spend to get a base-10 attack using this power. I'll assume you have a Conviction of 5.

Way less than what you're positing.

Evocation: -3 refresh, puts you at 6; plus two Focus slots, which put you at 8.

Then either Thaumaturgy (which a wizard is taking anyway) or a single refinement for two more slots to make it 10.

And it kind of seems like you're moving the goalposts with the mental toughness requirement, considering it hasn't been mentioned at all up to now in the discussion.

I'm not saying "rewrite all the monsters in the game," I'm saying "have attacks happen when the wizard doesn't have his/her weapon," "stage ambushes," "use snipers," "have monsters throw a bomb in the wizard's house," "make the wizard deal with drive-by shootings"--you know, the ways we've seen wizards get attacked in the books.

Players are nothing if not resourceful enough to find ways around any of those.

And a player is going to be more than a little cross if every fight deprives him of a skill he put time into putting together, so the game is going to have at least a few straight fights, in which case the wizard casting free attacks from 10+ with Weapon:3 is going to outclass any of his mundane allies, without even incurring the normal costs of doing business.

You don't have wizards attack/get attacked much in the Nevernever in your games, do you? Because the stressless casting I'm using is adapted directly from what Paranet Papers says that all wizards get in the Nevernever.

In a very specific spot that not all games go to, and which has built-in consequences when you do try to use it. This is bringing the power plus a weapon rating, everywhere without those consequences.

Because I have objections to letting any attack that's supposedly made with, say, a weapon:1 knife, a weapon:2 or 3 sword, or a weapon:0 fist count as a weapon:10 attack, and that's what this would accomplish.

I don't understand this objection at all.

It's an Earth evocation; just flavored as something different. If anything, the knife or sword or fist as flavor is superfluous.

It's like saying, "I have objections to letting any attack that's supposedly made by, say, pointing a wooden stick at someone from across the room and shouting a Latin word count as a Weapon:10 attack, and that's what Evocation would accomplish."

[nadia.skylark]

Way less than what you're positing.

Evocation: -3 refresh, puts you at 6; plus two Focus slots, which put you at 8.

Then either Thaumaturgy (which a wizard is taking anyway) or a single refinement for two more slots to make it 10.

Forgot about focus items, yes.

And it kind of seems like you're moving the goalposts with the mental toughness requirement, considering it hasn't been mentioned at all up to now in the discussion.

Sorry, I had thought that I said something about mental toughness and stressless casting earlier, but it turns out that not only was it on a different thread, it was a different thing about the mental strain of stressless casting altogether. My bad.

Players are nothing if not resourceful enough to find ways around any of those.

And a player is going to be more than a little cross if every fight deprives him of a skill he put time into putting together, so the game is going to have at least a few straight fights, in which case the wizard casting free attacks from 10+ with Weapon:3 is going to outclass any of his mundane allies, without even incurring the normal costs of doing business.

Okay, I'm not so good at game balance, so balance-wise this might be a problem. What I'm trying to do is create powers that replicate what we see it the books--and from what we see in the books, in a straight fight where you have prepared wizards and don't have enemies with magic resistance, wizards do indeed outclass their mundane allies, unless those mundane allies are people like Marcone or Kincaid (or Murphy, or...). And when it comes to computer hacking, the wizard is outclassed by their mundane allies. Like I said, I don't understand game balance all that well (it's why I keep posting things looking for help with mechanics) but I thought that you were supposed to have different characters be good at different things. (I mean, obviously, if one player wants to have their character be a vanilla mortal who's super good with a sword or whatever, then probably this power shouldn't be used. But can't you discuss that during character creation, or something?)

In a very specific spot that not all games go to, and which has built-in consequences when you do try to use it. This is bringing the power plus a weapon rating, everywhere without those consequences.

Which is why you have to pay refresh for it, where you get the Nevernever thing for free.

I don't understand this objection at all.

It's an Earth evocation; just flavored as something different. If anything, the knife or sword or fist as flavor is utterly superfluous.

Actually, you've explained my objection perfectly: the knife/sword/fist is superfluous--so why should it be there? If you want an earth evocation, do an earth evocation. If you want to make an attack with a sword, then you get the weapon rating of the sword. If you want to use earth magic to make a really effective attack with a sword, then you should still get the weapon rating of the sword--or the sword should not be involved.

[Mr. Death]

Okay, I'm not so good at game balance, so balance-wise this might be a problem. What I'm trying to do is create powers that replicate what we see it the books--and from what we see in the books, in a straight fight where you have prepared wizards and don't have enemies with magic resistance, wizards do indeed outclass their mundane allies, unless those mundane allies are people like Marcone or Kincaid (or Murphy, or...). And when it comes to computer hacking, the wizard is outclassed by their mundane allies. Like I said, I don't understand game balance all that well (it's why I keep posting things looking for help with mechanics) but I thought that you were supposed to have different characters be good at different things. (I mean, obviously, if one player wants to have their character be a vanilla mortal who's super good with a sword or whatever, then probably this power shouldn't be used. But can't you discuss that during character creation, or something?)

What it comes down to is, in most games, there's gonna be more combat than computer hacking, and there's a difference between Wizards having a distinct power advantage (which is reflected in the lore and the mechanics), and other characters being unable to contribute in a frequently-recurring aspect of the game.

Say you have a wizard that went all in on this power, and can freely pop off Weapon:3 attacks at a 10. Even if the average goon has a dodge roll of 5, that means the wizard has as good as an auto-hit attack that stands a good chance of one-shotting whatever he hits unless the GM gives it consequences.

Let's say his teammates are a super strong valkyrie and a mortal cop; the Valkyrie, with a sword, can do Weapon: 5 damage on a hit, but her attack roll tops out at 5. Same with the cop -- she's got an assault rifle at Weapon:3, and a Guns score at 5.

Already, the goons that the wizard is one-shotting are dodging half of the rest of the attacks, and taking less stress each time they do take a hit.

So does the GM adjust things to make it harder for the wizard to hit? If so, his allies are now hopelessly unable to hit the same enemies. Does he handicap the wizard specifically? Then the wizard's player is going to be annoyed.

And there's some slippery slope potential here:

There's already lots of "With X weapon, I do two extra stress" stunts that some on this board advocate; so at one more refresh, it's a Weapon:5 sword being swung from a 10, freely each round.

Plus, sword fighting is as much defense as offense, so why not argue that you can use that super-high bonus to deflect attacks just as easily, with no stress cost?

Actually, you've explained my objection perfectly: the knife/sword/fist is superfluous--so why should it be there? If you want an earth evocation, do an earth evocation. If you want to make an attack with a sword, then you get the weapon rating of the sword. If you want to use earth magic to make a really effective attack with a sword, then you should still get the weapon rating of the sword--or the sword should not be involved.

You're getting too hung up on the flavor. Dresden RPG is not a simulation -- ultimately, stress does not represent how much literal damage has been done; it is an abstract that represents how effective the attack is at taking someone out. That's probably part of why the attack roll adds to the damage — in theory, a single stab with a palm dagger is as effective at killing someone as a supernaturally hot plasma blast from Harry's rod.

Why have one Warden throw fire as a green ball that bounces across the ground, while another shoots little stars? Why have Ramirez specialize in Water evocations when, mechanically, it does the exact same thing as Harry's fire evocations? Why have Billy turn into a werewolf when holding a sword will do about the same damage without worrying about shedding all over the couch?

[nadia.skylark]

What it comes down to is, in most games, there's gonna be more combat than computer hacking, and there's a difference between Wizards having a distinct power advantage (which is reflected in the lore and the mechanics), and other characters being unable to contribute in a frequently-recurring aspect of the game.

Say you have a wizard that went all in on this power, and can freely pop off Weapon:3 attacks at a 10. Even if the average goon has a dodge roll of 5, that means the wizard has as good as an auto-hit attack that stands a good chance of one-shotting whatever he hits unless the GM gives it consequences.

Let's say his teammates are a super strong valkyrie and a mortal cop; the Valkyrie, with a sword, can do Weapon: 5 damage on a hit, but her attack roll tops out at 5. Same with the cop -- she's got an assault rifle at Weapon:3, and a Guns score at 5.

Already, the goons that the wizard is one-shotting are dodging half of the rest of the attacks, and taking less stress each time they do take a hit.

So does the GM adjust things to make it harder for the wizard to hit? If so, his allies are now hopelessly unable to hit the same enemies. Does he handicap the wizard specifically? Then the wizard's player is going to be annoyed.

You're getting too hung up on the flavor. Dresden RPG is not a simulation -- ultimately, stress does not represent how much literal damage has been done; it is an abstract that represents how effective the attack is at taking someone out. That's probably part of why the attack roll adds to the damage — in theory, a single stab with a palm dagger is as effective at killing someone as a supernaturally hot plasma blast from Harry's rod.

Why have one Warden throw fire as a green ball that bounces across the ground, while another shoots little stars? Why have Ramirez specialize in Water evocations when, mechanically, it does the exact same thing as Harry's fire evocations? Why have Billy turn into a werewolf when holding a sword will do about the same damage without worrying about shedding all over the couch?

So, are you going to suggest improvements, or do you just not like this ability, period?

For instance, would this power work better power bonuses did not contribute to aiming? What if power bonuses only contributed to aiming, rather than the attack value? Would it work better if it was limited to fists, and you had to pay an extra refresh to use it with weapons? Would it work better if you had to cut your conviction + power bonuses in half to use this ability? What if you just have a flat -2 on all rolls using this power? What if you had to split the value of your roll between aiming and attack value? Should this power instead be the ability to do earth magic maneuvers without stress as a supplemental action when attacking with fists/weapons, without the usual -1 penalty?

I appreciate feedback, but it's really annoying when what I'm hearing is "it won't work, and you shouldn't make it work because your reasons for wanting to make it work are stupid." I don't like most roleplaying games, and what makes this one fun is that I really like the Dresden files. As such, I'm trying to create powers that let things work the way they do in the books.

There's already lots of "With X weapon, I do two extra stress" stunts that some on this board advocate; so at one more refresh, it's a Weapon:5 sword being swung from a 10, freely each round.

I hadn't seen these. But, um, why couldn't other characters use them, too? If your valkyrie and mortal gunfighter also have the option of buying these stunts (and probably have more refresh to do it with, honestly) how is this a problem?

Plus, sword fighting is as much defense as offense, so why not argue that you can use that super-high bonus to deflect attacks just as easily, with no stress cost?

Weapons vs. weapons or fists vs. fists, you probably should be able to. Anything else, I feel like common sense would say no. I don't care how good your magic is, you can't deflect bullets with a sword. And while earth magic would let you do things like make your skin as hard as stone, that's normal evocation and should cost stress.

[Mr. Death]

So, are you going to suggest improvements, or do you just not like this ability, period?

For instance, would this power work better power bonuses did not contribute to aiming?

Yes. That would put it more in line with other skill-swapping stunts.

What if power bonuses only contributed to aiming, rather than the attack value?

That creates more bookkeeping, which can bog things down.

Would it work better if it was limited to fists, and you had to pay an extra refresh to use it with weapons? Would it work better if you had to cut your conviction + power bonuses in half to use this ability? What if you just have a flat -2 on all rolls using this power? What if you had to split the value of your roll between aiming and attack value? Should this power instead be the ability to do earth magic maneuvers without stress as a supplemental action when attacking with fists/weapons, without the usual -1 penalty?

I tend to avoid using different penalties and such like that, because again, more bookkeeping when combat is already by nature a time-consuming endeavor, so streamlining it tends to be preferred.

I appreciate feedback, but it's really annoying when what I'm hearing is "it won't work, and you shouldn't make it work because your reasons for wanting to make it work are stupid." I don't like most roleplaying games, and what makes this one fun is that I really like the Dresden files. As such, I'm trying to create powers that let things work the way they do in the books.

I'm sorry if I came off that way. I just don't see a conflict that needs to be resolved with a new power -- as I said, "roll it as Evocation, but flavor it as a sword attack" is something I've regularly done as a GM and, perhaps more to the point, we haven't necessarily seen Morgan do this, the characters are just speculating about it in the margins -- so the proposal seems, to me, both unnecessary and potentially game-breaking.

For what it's worth, I read the margin conversation as more, "Maybe this is what justifies Morgan's high Weapons skill," and less, "Maybe he's literally using his magic to actively strike better with the sword."

I hadn't seen these. But, um, why couldn't other characters use them, too? If your valkyrie and mortal gunfighter also have the option of buying these stunts (and probably have more refresh to do it with, honestly) how is this a problem?

Because I don't like those stunts, and I was trying to make a point. I think they're overpowered for the cost (in practice, they amount to a flat bonus for something you get for free) and lead to more "well why doesn't everyone get them?" inflation.

Skill inflation is an issue a lot around here, from what I've seen -- canon characters are thought to be statted out wrong because they're not super-optimized with high-powered stunts like that, and the average monster in Our World turns into a hilariously ineffective goon in the face of PCs that for -3 refresh are rolling +6 Guns and Weapons attacks at Weapon:5 round after round, and defending at +6 to boot.

It's a pet peeve of mine, as you can tell.

[nadia.skylark]

Yes. That would put it more in line with other skill-swapping stunts.

That creates more bookkeeping, which can bog things down.

I think I'm going to go with having the power bonus only effect aim, rather than not effect aim, since it's the same amount of bookkeeping (you just subtract the power bonus from the attack when calculating damage instead of when aiming) and it seems more thematically appropriate.

I tend to avoid using different penalties and such like that, because again, more bookkeeping when combat is already by nature a time-consuming endeavor, so streamlining it tends to be preferred.

Good point.

I'm sorry if I came off that way. I just don't see a conflict that needs to be resolved with a new power -- as I said, "roll it as Evocation, but flavor it as a sword attack" is something I've regularly done as a GM and, perhaps more to the point, we haven't necessarily seen Morgan do this, the characters are just speculating about it in the margins -- so the proposal seems, to me, both unnecessary and potentially game-breaking.

It's fine. At least 50% of the annoyance in my response was being stuck on a bus for entirely too long.

In the interest of honesty, a lot of the reason I care so much about flavor has nothing to do with actually playing the game--I'm trying to write a fanfic whose premise lends itself to massively overpowering the main character (fem!Harry, due to a botched ascension ritual she casts in her 40s, ends up getting into about 12 times more trouble and getting about 12 times more power ups than cannon!Harry (for example, she ends up with soulfire at the end of Fool Moon, but has no idea how it works or how to use it or how not to use it until White Night/Small Favor; as a result, she uses it accidentally during Proven Guilty, which results in her accidentally gaining semi-permanent access to Summer Fire; in order to stop Summer from trying to kill her for stealing access to their magic, she agrees to help form a strike team to do Summer's work and run it for a year or two; as a result, she ends up in Baltimore dealing with the ghoul from Your Story, and decides to tap into the destruction Ley line to do it; but because destructive energy is generally unstable she ends up dealing with things like having it flare too strongly and bringing the tunnel down on top of her, and having the power cut out on her just as she gets attacked by something else; etc)) and I'm trying to use the RPG's character progression to stop her getting too strong too fast. As a result, I spend a bunch of time trying to figure out how to turn "this particular narrative ability" into a balanced RPG power that does what I want it to and doesn't overlap too badly with all the other powers that look similar (for example, differentiating phoenix magic from firebird magic from fire Ley line magic from stolen-dog-of-a-volcano god magic).

For what it's worth, I read the margin conversation as more, "Maybe this is what justifies Morgan's high Weapons skill," and less, "Maybe he's literally using his magic to actively strike better with the sword."

I can see how that would be another interpretation.

Because I don't like those stunts, and I was trying to make a point. I think they're overpowered for the cost (in practice, they amount to a flat bonus for something you get for free) and lead to more "well why doesn't everyone get them?" inflation.

Skill inflation is an issue a lot around here, from what I've seen -- canon characters are thought to be statted out wrong because they're not super-optimized with high-powered stunts like that, and the average monster in Our World turns into a hilariously ineffective goon in the face of PCs that for -3 refresh are rolling +6 Guns and Weapons attacks at Weapon:5 round after round, and defending at +6 to boot.

It's a pet peeve of mine, as you can tell.

I can see how that would be annoying.

[Sanctaphrax]

For instance, would this power work better power bonuses did not contribute to aiming?

They already don't. Aim is Discipline + control, not Conviction + power.

Maybe, but there's still a functional limit and real risk associated with it. Evocation is powerful, sure, and it's supposed to be, but it's also not supposed to be something you can use all day.

I mean, look at Breath Weapon, which would work similarly to this. For one, it's only Weapon:2, and it doesn't allow for a bunch of stacked bonuses to make it auto-hit every round.

The limitation is well worth it. It's not reasonable to call this overpowered when it's worse than the existing baseline.

Especially since, when you remove the assumption that the Wizard is going all-in on hitting as hard as possible, this Power suffers more than regular Evocation does.

Anyway, I don't think Breath Weapon is a good comparison. Because Breath Weapon doesn't actually provide a bonus; it just lets you spend 2 Refresh on a guarantee that you will never be disarmed.

Because I don't like those stunts, and I was trying to make a point. I think they're overpowered for the cost (in practice, they amount to a flat bonus for something you get for free) and lead to more "well why doesn't everyone get them?" inflation.

If a weapon focus stunt would be unfair in your game, you might want to nerf foci/enchanted items. And merge Fists with Weapons.

There's a bunch of stuff in the game based on the assumption that characters won't always have their stuff. Foci, the existence of the Fists skill, Item of Power, Armed Arts, Breath Weapon, and the like.

Check Our World sometime; the average monster is statted so that its dodge is at 3, with Ghouls and a couple others something of an outlier at 4 and 5.

Skill inflation is an issue a lot around here, from what I've seen -- canon characters are thought to be statted out wrong because they're not super-optimized with high-powered stunts like that, and the average monster in Our World turns into a hilariously ineffective goon in the face of PCs that for -3 refresh are rolling +6 Guns and Weapons attacks at Weapon:5 round after round, and defending at +6 to boot.

It's a pet peeve of mine, as you can tell.

You don't need high optimization to smack around Our World monsters. You just need to put combat-relevant stuff in (some of) your highest skill slots and spend a bit of Refresh on fighty stuff. OW generally assumes / expects a low level of both optimization and combat focus.

I don't really see this as a problem, since there's no right level of optimization or combat focus. But I do think it would've been good for the book to talk a bit about how monster stats can be adjusted to suit different groups.

I think I'm going to go with having the power bonus only effect aim, rather than not effect aim, since it's the same amount of bookkeeping (you just subtract the power bonus from the attack when calculating damage instead of when aiming) and it seems more thematically appropriate.

You should probably drop the cost to 1 Refresh, then. At that point it's not much better than a stunt letting you swing your sword with Discipline. Particularly if your target's armoured.

[Mr. Death]

The limitation is well worth it. It's not reasonable to call this overpowered when it's worse than the existing baseline.

Especially since, when you remove the assumption that the Wizard is going all-in on hitting as hard as possible, this Power suffers more than regular Evocation does.

The thing is, it gives the wizard essentially a free attack that's far more powerful for the high attack roll than is available to anyone else and it frees up the Mental stress boxes for defenses and maneuvers, when without this stunt, a wizard would have to more carefully balance his resources.

A normal wizard might have to choose between whether to use his stress boxes to attack or defend -- with this stunt, they're free to put up an enormous Block against all attacks, then attack at their leisure for free.

Anyway, I don't think Breath Weapon is a good comparison. Because Breath Weapon doesn't actually provide a bonus; it just lets you spend 2 Refresh on a guarantee that you will never be disarmed.

That was kind of my point. If Breath Weapon is the game's model for a "free" magic attack, this proposed stunt blows it out of the water.

If a weapon focus stunt would be unfair in your game, you might want to nerf foci/enchanted items. And merge Fists with Weapons.

There's a bunch of stuff in the game based on the assumption that characters won't always have their stuff. Foci, the existence of the Fists skill, Item of Power, Armed Arts, Breath Weapon, and the like.

But the majority of the time, the players are going to have them, while other stunts that add +1 to attack or +2 to stress tend to have more narrow applications than just, "Have the weapon you're probably going to have most of the time."

What's the point of a stunt to get +1 to an attack when I'm surrounded by targets if I can instead take a stunt to get +1 to attack all the time? What's the point of a stunt to unload the clip of a gun for +2 stress when I can just take a stunt to get +2 on every attack with the gun?

You don't need high optimization to smack around Our World monsters. You just need to put combat-relevant stuff in (some of) your highest skill slots and spend a bit of Refresh on fighty stuff. OW generally assumes / expects a low level of both optimization and combat focus.

That's right, you don't -- thing is, there's a problem when a 6-refresh Pure Mortal is able to trounce monsters that, in canon, give full-fledged-wizard Harry consistent trouble.

I don't really see this as a problem, since there's no right level of optimization or combat focus. But I do think it would've been good for the book to talk a bit about how monster stats can be adjusted to suit different groups.

It's more of a mindset thing and personal pet peeve, I think, than a practical problem.

[Taran]

This all seems too complicated.  Why not just say that his weapon skill is complimented by his discipline?  Thematically appropriate and it adds a +1 to his weapon skill if his discipline is higher than weapons. 

This is a -1 refresh stunt - at most.