Why are powers so much stronger than stunts?

[Mr. Death]

This feels wrong narratively--if you're going into a fight already hurt, it ought to make a difference--but I'm not sure how it should be handled mechanically.

Typically, it's handled by having a sharply limited amount of consequence slots to fill up. And, as Sanctaphrax points out, aspects can also be compelled; which in turn nets you fate points.

But even if your consequences are never invoked against you, having them filled puts a really low limit on the amount of punishment you can take in a scene.

Yes, but how much does that matter if you have to resolve whatever you're dealing with by tomorrow? In the books, at least, being completely healed in a couple of weeks wouldn't make a difference, because the situations in question never take longer than three days or so to deal with.

In the books, sure; but I've run scenarios that have taken in-game weeks. Plus, the books take place weeks or months apart -- so a character with Inhuman Recovery could be reliably back to 100% by the next Scenario/Book, while a character without is still injured.

It can't only be people who just want to get around defenses, because using spirit attacks like this is in the RAW. I feel like they wouldn't stick it into the sourcebook just because someone wanted to cheat the system like that, so it follows that some groups can use it without a problem.

I wouldn't say the existence of an exploit means that it's used "without a problem." As Sanctaphrax points out, it has serious game-breaking potential.

Would this stunt be less of a problem if you couldn't use more than one of its consequences on any given thing (ie, you couldn't use more than one consequence to power a spell, you couldn't use more than one extra consequence to absorb an attack, etc)? This feels clunky, but I don't want my character to be able to absorb bigger hits than any other character or cast massively overpowered spells; this stunt is supposed to be for a bunch of smaller things.

If it's for a bunch of smaller things, armor or extra mild consequences are more appropriate. Remember that a Severe reduces a six-shift hit -- a grenade is only Weapon:4 and getting hit by a moving car is Weapon:5, so that's the type of injury it's meant to absorb. We're talking broken bones, disembowelment, and other such things that should outright incapacitate someone who isn't a determined PC and would keep a character recovering for weeks to months -- remember the bit in Small Favor where Gard is literally shoving her intestines back into place? That was a Severe consequence.

Remember: Stress and consequences are abstractions, and it goes both ways. I've often said that a stress hit or even a Taken Out does not necessarily mean the attack actually impacted you -- by the same token, the attack actually impacting you does not necessarily mean a consequence or even stress.

So you could easily have a character take Tough Stuff, narrate that they're getting bruised and beaten, but that the Armor:1 is letting them shrug off most of the attacks and keep going.

Sure. That's not at all out of line for 2 Refresh.

I disagree; Inhuman Toughness is a 2-refresh power, and if all your stress boxes are taken up, it does not let you absorb an extra 4-shift and an extra 6-shift hit and keep fighting. This power does.

If it could let them keep fighting through additional minor hits -- as nadia just said is the intention -- that would be one thing, but as is, this stunt would let a character already loaded up with the normal consequences take a grenade to the face and keep going.

There are some special interactions like Sponsored Magic + Evocation. And for some reason you can't take Wizard's Constitution with Toughness. It's hardly common, though.

Well, it says Recovery and Toughness powers replace Wizard's Constitution, which I took to mean that its effects are included in those powers anyway.

It's probably better to say that Recovery Powers don't affect the extra slots than to ban taking both together.

Seems kind of arbitrary, though, doesn't it? Why should the supernatural healing ability make the bullet wound in one's leg heal up in a week or so, while the one in their arm that came from the same gun, during the same fight, take months?

It's way better and also way more expensive, as is appropriate.

The Catch is really more benefit than weakness. It's a big discount.

Even Inhuman Toughness has a required Catch, even if that catch offers no discount at all.

On the contrary, it's often the people with Recovery powers who spend the most time in brutally injured states. They can handle it, after all.

True, look at Wolverine -- how many times is he reduced to his damn skeleton just to pop back? Various versions of him have stated that he's used to pain by now, I believe.

Every imaginable set of rules is fine for some groups. But if you allow mental spirit attacks, anyone who's good at Evocation can one-shot everything. Pretty much nothing is physically tough enough to handle a 7-shift force lance and mentally tough enough to handle a 7-shift sleep beam.

Agreed 100%. It would've taken a truck going 65 to bring down my Valkyrie character from my earlier Fight Night example in one shot (and even then, the truck would have to sneak up on her), but a single mental attack took her down easily.

[nadia.skylark]

It's probably better to say that Recovery Powers don't affect the extra slots than to ban taking both together.

Good idea!

On the contrary, it's often the people with Recovery powers who spend the most time in brutally injured states. They can handle it, after all.

True, look at Wolverine -- how many times is he reduced to his damn skeleton just to pop back? Various versions of him have stated that he's used to pain by now, I believe.

Good point. Hadn't thought of that.

Consequence Aspects can be invoked and Compelled.

Thanks.

In the books, sure; but I've run scenarios that have taken in-game weeks. Plus, the books take place weeks or months apart -- so a character with Inhuman Recovery could be reliably back to 100% by the next Scenario/Book, while a character without is still injured.

Okay. But that seems like any character with Inhuman Recovery would be back to 100%, not just characters with Inhuman Recovery and this stunt.

If it's for a bunch of smaller things, armor or extra mild consequences are more appropriate. Remember that a Severe reduces a six-shift hit -- a grenade is only Weapon:4 and getting hit by a moving car is Weapon:5, so that's the type of injury it's meant to absorb. We're talking broken bones, disembowelment, and other such things that should outright incapacitate someone who isn't a determined PC and would keep a character recovering for weeks to months -- remember the bit in Small Favor where Gard is literally shoving her intestines back into place? That was a Severe consequence.

Remember: Stress and consequences are abstractions, and it goes both ways. I've often said that a stress hit or even a Taken Out does not necessarily mean the attack actually impacted you -- by the same token, the attack actually impacting you does not necessarily mean a consequence or even stress.

So you could easily have a character take Tough Stuff, narrate that they're getting bruised and beaten, but that the Armor:1 is letting them shrug off most of the attacks and keep going.

You're right, only allowing someone to use one of the consequences at a time is a bad way to represent what I'm going for. It was meant to represent someone who couldn't take bigger hits than a normal person, but could take more of them.

What about the part about only using one of these consequences per spell? Would that help limit the problem of being able to use this stunt to boost your magic?

Seems kind of arbitrary, though, doesn't it? Why should the supernatural healing ability make the bullet wound in one's leg heal up in a week or so, while the one in their arm that came from the same gun, during the same fight, take months?

Because your healing power is overworked by all your injuries, and can't effectively deal with everything. This is the same reason as why 90% of the time when I get a fever, I end up with a cold a day or two later--my immune system was busy with the fever and couldn't stop the cold as well.

[Mr. Death]

Okay. But that seems like any character with Inhuman Recovery would be back to 100%, not just characters with Inhuman Recovery and this stunt.

They would; it's one of the ways the recovery powers are so, well, powerful. A character this stunt and a recovery power would be able to absorb a lot more in a "burst" and be up on their feet quicker.

Consider how often you get into a fight in a typical game, or even in the book -- it's super rare for Harry to bounce from one fight to another without some time to catch his breath, and in games, there tends to be a fight maybe every other session, if there's a lot of fights.

So a normal character with IR, they can get into a fight, take a mild and a moderate, spend a day or two recuperating, and they're back on their feet, repeat for more or less every fight.

With this stunt, the character can double that -- take two Moderates and two Milds every fight and come back on their feet within a day or so, when any other character would need to take a Severe to take the same amount of punishment, and even with the same recovery power, would be hampered by the recovery time.

You're right, only allowing someone to use one of the consequences at a time is a bad way to represent what I'm going for. It was meant to represent someone who couldn't take bigger hits than a normal person, but could take more of them.

Yeah, as I said before, armor is better about modeling "can take a lot of smaller hits" than the larger consequences.

For instance, Tough Stuff + No Pain No Gain + a 5 in Endurance gives you a total of three mild consequences and Armor:1 for blunt attacks. That alone gives you a character who can take a lot of small attacks, shrugging off half of them, get bloodied and bruised, but still believably able to fight before taking a couple scenes to recover and being back in business.

For fiction, I find it a lot easier to believe that someone could, for instance, get a black-eye, a charlie horse and a twisted ankle (all good examples of Mild consequences) and keep going than someone who has a black eye, a dislocated shoulder and a broken leg (i.e., a mild, moderate and severe consequence) and still be able to take much damage as another person who hasn't gotten hit at all yet (i.e., still has one each of those slots yet to fill).

What about the part about only using one of these consequences per spell? Would that help limit the problem of being able to use this stunt to boost your magic?

It would limit it, yes, but it's still a substantial boost.

Because your healing power is overworked by all your injuries, and can't effectively deal with everything. This is the same reason as why 90% of the time when I get a fever, I end up with a cold a day or two later--my immune system was busy with the fever and couldn't stop the cold as well.

That's a fair point -- it would need to be a built-in aspect of the power.

[Sanctaphrax]

I disagree; Inhuman Toughness is a 2-refresh power, and if all your stress boxes are taken up, it does not let you absorb an extra 4-shift and an extra 6-shift hit and keep fighting. This power does.

If it could let them keep fighting through additional minor hits -- as nadia just said is the intention -- that would be one thing, but as is, this stunt would let a character already loaded up with the normal consequences take a grenade to the face and keep going.

As you said yourself, being hit mechanically doesn't always correspond to being hit storywise. If you're using this to survive grenades, the grenades are not landing clean. They're falling far enough away from you that you're merely badly injured.

Basically, this power lets you keep fighting with a sucking chest wound and a shattered leg, rather than just one or the other.

As for the Toughness comparison, having run the numbers I'd almost always choose to buy Toughness over this.

Well, it says Recovery and Toughness powers replace Wizard's Constitution, which I took to mean that its effects are included in those powers anyway.

Sensible for Recovery, but real weird for Toughness.

Seems kind of arbitrary, though, doesn't it? Why should the supernatural healing ability make the bullet wound in one's leg heal up in a week or so, while the one in their arm that came from the same gun, during the same fight, take months?

One option would be to over-describe the extra consequences, and say the arm wound is far more serious.

Another option, and probably a better one, would be to say that the consequence Aspect changes rather than disappearing. HEALED BULLET WOUND can fill a consequence slot as effectively as BULLET WOUND.

You could even say that Aspects fade Recovery-fast, but you have to wait the full time before using the slot again.

Even Inhuman Toughness has a required Catch, even if that catch offers no discount at all.

The Catch can be a genuine weakness, and it will be if you choose a +0 catch with a GM who intends to use it. But of course you don't have to do that; Supernatural Toughness with a +3 Catch is about the best thing you can do with 1 Refresh, even if you're not playing cheesy games with the Catch rebate.

[Mr. Death]

As you said yourself, being hit mechanically doesn't always correspond to being hit storywise. If you're using this to survive grenades, the grenades are not landing clean. They're falling far enough away from you that you're merely badly injured.

Basically, this power lets you keep fighting with a sucking chest wound and a shattered leg, rather than just one or the other.

As for the Toughness comparison, having run the numbers I'd almost always choose to buy Toughness over this.

I'm talking purely mechanically here. Point is, someone with the regular set of consequences, once they have all their stress boxes and regular consequences filled up, the smallest attack will finish them. Someone with this, can take three substantial hits before going down. It just doesn't feel right to me.

Sensible for Recovery, but real weird for Toughness.

I agree -- in fact, until you pointed it out and I went and checked, I thought it was just Recovery.

One option would be to over-describe the extra consequences, and say the arm wound is far more serious.

Another option, and probably a better one, would be to say that the consequence Aspect changes rather than disappearing. HEALED BULLET WOUND can fill a consequence slot as effectively as BULLET WOUND.

You could even say that Aspects fade Recovery-fast, but you have to wait the full time before using the slot again.

That last one kind of removes a lot of the point of the recovery power, I feel. And they all feel like patches more than anything; as mentioned before, I tend to be of the opinion that the more patches something needs, the less wise it is to allow it.

The Catch can be a genuine weakness, and it will be if you choose a +0 catch with a GM who intends to use it. But of course you don't have to do that; Supernatural Toughness with a +3 Catch is about the best thing you can do with 1 Refresh, even if you're not playing cheesy games with the Catch rebate.

And if it's a +3 catch, it's going to end up not applying a lot. I mean, look at Black Court Vampires -- they're an extreme example, but they can barely walk a dozen feet without running into something that counts as their Catch.

[Sanctaphrax]

I'm talking purely mechanically here. Point is, someone with the regular set of consequences, once they have all their stress boxes and regular consequences filled up, the smallest attack will finish them. Someone with this, can take three substantial hits before going down. It just doesn't feel right to me.

Why not?

That's the whole point of spending Refresh on durability.

That last one kind of removes a lot of the point of the recovery power, I feel. And they all feel like patches more than anything; as mentioned before, I tend to be of the opinion that the more patches something needs, the less wise it is to allow it.

It's a patch, and needing a patch isn't ideal, but it's small and you only need the one.

And if it's a +3 catch, it's going to end up not applying a lot. I mean, look at Black Court Vampires -- they're an extreme example, but they can barely walk a dozen feet without running into something that counts as their Catch.

That's a +4 Catch, and a remarkably bad one.

Most +3 Catches require real effort from an opponent who has it in for you personally. Either they need to do a bit of research to discover that you're vulnerable to something they can easily find, or they need to put some work into finding someone with the thing you're vulnerable to. And either way, they may need to attack in a way that doesn't suit their skills in order to take advantage.

It'll get pierced from time to time, but so what? It's just 1 Refresh worth of stuff.

[Mr. Death]

Why not?

That's the whole point of spending Refresh on durability.

Because there's no precedent for it. Every other stunt or ability that grants extra consequences exclusively adds Mild consequences. Dresden's treatment of injury is more realistic than other systems, and it's one of the things that keeps it grounded and interesting -- a sucking wound to the chest or having your guts torn out should be the limit on how much punishment you can take and keep fighting.

That's a +4 Catch, and a remarkably bad one.

Most +3 Catches require real effort from an opponent who has it in for you personally. Either they need to do a bit of research to discover that you're vulnerable to something they can easily find, or they need to put some work into finding someone with the thing you're vulnerable to. And either way, they may need to attack in a way that doesn't suit their skills in order to take advantage.

It'll get pierced from time to time, but so what? It's just 1 Refresh worth of stuff.

In a long enough campaign, it's going to come up more and more especially as the heroes gain notoriety and the villains start to figure out what works and what doesn't.

[Sanctaphrax]

Because there's no precedent for it. Every other stunt or ability that grants extra consequences exclusively adds Mild consequences.

That seems like a fully general argument against ever doing anything new.

Dresden's treatment of injury is more realistic than other systems, and it's one of the things that keeps it grounded and interesting -- a sucking wound to the chest or having your guts torn out should be the limit on how much punishment you can take and keep fighting.

This is a Power; it's allowed to be magical.

And hey, there's always Compels. I hear they solve everything. Can always Compel someone to suffer consequences for their consequences.

In a long enough campaign, it's going to come up more and more especially as the heroes gain notoriety and the villains start to figure out what works and what doesn't.

True. But it'll never stop being a fantastic deal for 1 Refresh.

Plus, the more and more often part can earn you FP, sometimes. Depends on the situation and your GM.

[Mr. Death]

That seems like a fully general argument against ever doing anything new.

No, just against new things that seem to fall way outside what we normally see.

The average 2 refresh power does things in 1s and 2s; it adds 2 stress boxes, or you get a two stress attack you couldn't do before (like Claws and Breath Weapon), or you get a new trapping for a skill (like Glamours). The ones that do more than that (like channeling) come with a usage cost.

So a 2 refresh power that adds a 4-shift effect and a 6-shift effect without a cost or a weakness seems way outside of what's normally in the range of a 2 refresh power.

This is a Power; it's allowed to be magical.

And hey, there's always Compels. I hear they solve everything. Can always Compel someone to suffer consequences for their consequences.

Even magic has its limits; those limits are often based on the refresh spent. This proposed power seems to me to go beyond the normal limits for refresh v. effect.

True. But it'll never stop being a fantastic deal for 1 Refresh.

Plus, the more and more often part can earn you FP, sometimes. Depends on the situation and your GM.

Nonetheless, it is still a concrete, exploitable weakness in the power, which this power doesn't have.