Role of Murphy going forward

[g33k]

I'd thought that they were shown as separate-but-allied pretty clearly, if only because I don't see Marcone being part of such an organization and not running it, and it's pretty clear that Marcone isn't running the Paranet.

You may be right; they may be "merely" allies; as I said, it's not clear to me.

But I think Marcone would be ENTIRELY happy working closely with the Paranet as "part" of it, so long as he doesn't have to make any actual promises/etc (that he'd feel bound by); just working on a basis of implied/assumed membership.  He'll get much more cooperation from them if they see him as "part of" their group.  And the network of hundreds (or thousands?) of low-level talents is a magical-surveillance system he'd pay dearly to buy from Monoc...  I think he'd put a fair degree of effort into keeping them happy, and might even make them promises he'd rather NOT make, to keep said access.

I'm not convinced of that. One of the first things we hear about Elaine, even before we meet her, is Harry saying, "I don't talk about Elaine." And certainly, neither Elaine nor Harry act as if having her name heard by the wrong people in the White Council would blow her cover.

Actually, I'm not convinced that Harry talked to McCoy much about what happened at all, because I'm not convinced that McCoy ever thought that Harry was innocent. That is, I don't know if he ever really bought the self-defense thing. I think it's more likely that McCoy thought that Harry was in the same position as Molly was, in that he screwed up but was redeemable, and stepped in because Harry was his grandson. He probably wouldn't have said this to Harry, but probably would have given enough of a subconscious impression of distrust to discourage Harry (who already doesn't share things and dislikes talking about his emotions) from talking about it too much. This would also explain his initial hostility to McCoy when they meet in Summer Knight.

(a) I suspect a confused/angry/heartsick/frightened teen might have spewed some of that in the process of decompressing.  Just because Adult-Harry doesn't talk about Elaine, doesn't mean Teen-Harry never did to his trusted mentor and father-figure... the only man he calls "sir".
(b) If you are correct that the Blackstaff didn't think Harry was actually "innocent by reason of self-defense," I think it overwhelmingly-likely that he'd have used some normally-forbidden magic (because Blackstaff) to get a clearer idea of what had happened.
 

[nadia.skylark]

(a) I suspect a confused/angry/heartsick/frightened teen might have spewed some of that in the process of decompressing.  Just because Adult-Harry doesn't talk about Elaine, doesn't mean Teen-Harry never did to his trusted mentor and father-figure... the only man he calls "sir".

I actually tend to suspect the opposite. Throughout the books, it's been a sign of character development when he shares things with his allies and talks about his emotions. It wouldn't make much sense if his teenage self was more mature in this department than the Harry we see in the books.

Also, remember that he'd just been betrayed by a father-figure (and the woman he loved), and this has been implied to be the root of his trust issues. I would find it very odd if he were suddenly completely open and honest with his new father-figure.

(b) If you are correct that the Blackstaff didn't think Harry was actually "innocent by reason of self-defense," I think it overwhelmingly-likely that he'd have used some normally-forbidden magic (because Blackstaff) to get a clearer idea of what had happened.

Why? What would that accomplish? He knows Harry is redeemable because he soulgazed him. What else would he need forbidden magic to find out that mattered so much?

[g33k]

I actually tend to suspect the opposite. Throughout the books, it's been a sign of character development when he shares things with his allies and talks about his emotions. It wouldn't make much sense if his teenage self was more mature in this department than the Harry we see in the books.

Also, remember that he'd just been betrayed by a father-figure (and the woman he loved), and this has been implied to be the root of his trust issues. I would find it very odd if he were suddenly completely open and honest with his new father-figure.

Oh, I agree that Harry wouldn't have "just" opened up.  "New adult male authority figure?  Cool, I'll spill ALL my heartache and self-doubt!" ... yeahNO.

But in time, as Eb proved trustworthy...

I don't think Harry ever saw Justin as much of a "father" figure, however:  he had memories of Malcom, after all!  Justin taught Harry to Shield by flinging baseballs at him.  We presume many of Justin's "lessons" were similarly abusive... but that Eb's were not.

Eb earned from Harry a singular level of trust & respect.

Why? What would that accomplish? He knows Harry is redeemable because he soulgazed him. What else would he need forbidden magic to find out that mattered so much?

DuMorne had been a Warden; he was part of the team attacking Kemmler, part of the magical bomb-squad going into Kemmler's lab afterwards.  This implies a pretty senior Warden, and a lot of WC trust.

But somehow, 20-30 years later, he was so dark a warlock as to summon HWWB to kill an escaping apprentice?
 Eb himself had been a Warden; he'd have been intimately aware of what a huge issue this was.

The WTF must have been intense in the WC.  The whole shitshow would merit as much information-gathering as possible... Is Justin really dead?  Did Justin really summon one of the most-dangerous Outsiders known?  Did Harry really defeat said Walker?  WTF was going on at Justin's house???  What else -- besides the corruption of a senior Warden, the attempt(s) to take a promising apprentice down his corrupt path -- had gone seriously wrong, there?

I really cannot see Eb being satisfied just with knowing Harry was "redeemable," this issue is MUCH bigger than Harry in and of himself.  Outsiders are an existential threat; and the WC's Blackstaff exists specifically to break the Laws, when and if such threats need to be met outside the Laws.
 
Edit:  Also, I cannot honestly see how the WC wouldn't know of DuMorne's other apprentice.  They investigated the events, and I cannot believe Harry would have been able to recount a credible lie (nor why he'd even have tried) that omitted Elaine's role in trying to help DuMorne enthrall Harry; he'd have still been shaken, and in accute mental/emotional distress; they would have been cross-examining him, discussing his likely death right there in front of him.  This does not create the environment for Harry to tell a lie... especially one he'd see no need to tell!  It's not like he thought he was protecting her!!!  The WC dropped the "Elaine issue" simply because Harry was absolutely convinced that she died in the fire; his certainty of that was what convinced them.

[KurtinStGeorge]

In my opinion, Murphy's character and it's changes from 12 up to book 15 are quite explainable.

After Harry's presumed death in book 12, Murphy got hit hard. More importantly, in her opinion Harry is not dead because his body is not found. At that point Murphy is like a family of a soldier missing in action. Harry is missing, presumed dead but there is no body. There is no closure. She is hoping Harry is still alive, afraid he is truely dead and in denial. Unlik.All that plus all other external factors must have strain her badly. This would explain her hard line methods when Harry first appear in book 13. Murphy's condition is different from Molly. Molly knows what exactly happened to Harry. She knows Harry is dead because she help arrange it. Molly suffers from guilt. Murphy however, suffers from regret and uncertainty.

By the end of book 13, Murphy must have healled somewhat. By facing Harry's ghost and gaining the confirmation that Harry is truely dead, Murphy has gotten her closure. She is devastated, but she can now continue with her life. The end of GS, where Mortimer shielded Murphy while she is crying is the sign of her emotional recovery.

Just after Murphy accepted Harry's death and start to go on with her life, Harry returns from the dead. Molly has warning from Lea, Murphy get the full surprise package. From this alone, her innitial rather cold reception to Harry's return is understandable. It is hard enough for her to shift from believing Harry is still alive when Harry first died in book 12 into accepting that Harry is truely dead after she meet Harry's ghost in book 13. Now in book 14, she has to shift back from accepting Harry is dead to Harry is still alive again. It is a major emotional upheaval for her.

A shock though it was, it is after all a good news in the end. Once the shock is over, the fact that Harry is indeed not dead must be a major boon for Murphy emotionally which would explain why she gotten a lot better once book 15comes around.

In terms of character, all seems to be in order.

Your explanation is pretty good, except the part I highlighted.  The problem with your explanation isn't in book 13 (Ghost Story) and your explanation would be logical one except for what came later.  The problem is Jim's writing about Harry and Murphy's first meeting in book 14 (Cold Days).  First we have Butters having this conversation with Harry:

 "It's more of a roller coaster, lately, but a good mind is flexible," Butters said. "I'll deal with it; don't worry." He worked for a moment more before adding, in a low murmur, "Unlike some other people."

"Eh?" I asked him.

Butters just looked up across the large apartment and then went back to work.

I followed the direction of his gaze.

Karrin sat curled up in a chair beside the fireplace, on the far side of the big apartment, her arms wrapped around her knees, her head leaning against the chair's back. Her eyes were closed and her mouth was open a little. She was evidently asleep. The gentle snoring supported that theory.

"Oh," I said. "Uh. Yeah. She didn't seem to handle it real well when I was ghosting around. . . ."

"Understatement," Butters breathed. "She's been through a lot. And none of it made her a bit less prickly."

Thomas made a low sound of agreement.

"She's run most of her friends off," Butters said. "Never talks to cops anymore. Hasn't been speaking to her family. Just the Viking crew down at the BFS. I'm hanging in there. So is Molly. I guess maybe we both know that she's in a bad place."


So it's pretty clear that Murphy hasn't really healed at this point in time.  Then a page or two later Murphy guilt trips Harry into giving back Bob and acknowledging that Karrin would keep the swords.  While that conversation really annoyed some readers what I got out of it was this part:

"I'm not angry at you, Harry," she said. "I don't hate you. I don't think you've gone bad. A lot of people have fallen into the trap you did. People better than either of us."

"Uh," I said. "The evil-Queen-of-Faerie trap?"

"Christ, Harry," Murphy said quietly. "No one just starts giggling and wearing black and signs up to become a villainous monster. How the hell do you think it happens?" She shook her head, her eyes pained. "It happens to people. Just people. They make questionable choices, for what might be very good reasons. They make choice after choice, and none of them is slaughtering roomfuls of saints, or murdering hundreds of baby seals, or rubber-room irrational. But it adds up. And then one day they look around and realize that they're so far over the line that they can't remember where it was."

I really wondered when I read that if Murphy wasn't referring to herself in the part I highlighted.  She was in a pretty dark place emotionally in Ghost Story.  We know she terminated two sorcerers with extreme prejudice before ghost Harry showed up in that book.  I think there is more to Murphy's story that we haven't heard yet, and before we do it's difficult to know where her path may lead.

[Mira]

"Christ, Harry," Murphy said quietly. "No one just starts giggling and wearing black and signs up to become a villainous monster. How the hell do you think it happens?" She shook her head, her eyes pained. "It happens to people. Just people. They make questionable choices, for what might be very good reasons. They make choice after choice, and none of them is slaughtering roomfuls of saints, or murdering hundreds of baby seals, or rubber-room irrational. But it adds up. And then one day they look around and realize that they're so far over the line that they can't remember where it was."

I really wondered when I read that if Murphy wasn't referring to herself in the part I highlighted.  She was in a pretty dark place emotionally in Ghost Story.  We know she terminated two sorcerers with extreme prejudice before ghost Harry showed up in that book.  I think there is more to Murphy's story that we haven't heard yet, and before we do it's difficult to know where her path may lead.

It isn't new for her, the aftermath after Nightmare got into her head was she turned to the bottle.  Understandable maybe, but she wouldn't let anyone help her that time either...  Murphy may seem
very tough, but there is a brittle component to her personality, I repeat it wasn't just her body that Nic damaged...

[KurtinStGeorge]

It isn't new for her, the aftermath after Nightmare got into her head was she turned to the bottle.  Understandable maybe, but she wouldn't let anyone help her that time either...  Murphy may seem
very tough, but there is a brittle component to her personality, I repeat it wasn't just her body that Nic damaged...

Agreed

[nadia.skylark]

Oh, I agree that Harry wouldn't have "just" opened up.  "New adult male authority figure?  Cool, I'll spill ALL my heartache and self-doubt!" ... yeahNO.

But in time, as Eb proved trustworthy...

But by that point, why would the subject even come up? I mean, think about it: Harry and Ebenezer are both sitting at the breakfast table, maybe six months to a year after Justin's death, and Harry just spontaneously goes "Hey, sir, you know that thing where I murdered my teacher who was a warlock trying to enthrall me? Well, I also murdered my adopted sister who I was sleeping with, who was also trying to enthrall me...Why am I telling you this? No reason, just thought you ought to know..." It seems very unlikely.

I don't think Harry ever saw Justin as much of a "father" figure, however:  he had memories of Malcom, after all!

What we saw of there relationship in Ghost Story indicates otherwise. Hell, in that book Harry's still trying to defend Justin, and its been decades!

DuMorne had been a Warden; he was part of the team attacking Kemmler, part of the magical bomb-squad going into Kemmler's lab afterwards.  This implies a pretty senior Warden, and a lot of WC trust.

But somehow, 20-30 years later, he was so dark a warlock as to summon HWWB to kill an escaping apprentice?
 Eb himself had been a Warden; he'd have been intimately aware of what a huge issue this was.

But the premise of this argument is that Ebenezer didn't believe that Justin was a warlock who set an Outsider on his apprentice.

The WTF must have been intense in the WC.  The whole shitshow would merit as much information-gathering as possible... Is Justin really dead?  Did Justin really summon one of the most-dangerous Outsiders known?  Did Harry really defeat said Walker?  WTF was going on at Justin's house???  What else -- besides the corruption of a senior Warden, the attempt(s) to take a promising apprentice down his corrupt path -- had gone seriously wrong, there?

I really cannot see Eb being satisfied just with knowing Harry was "redeemable," this issue is MUCH bigger than Harry in and of himself.  Outsiders are an existential threat; and the WC's Blackstaff exists specifically to break the Laws, when and if such threats need to be met outside the Laws.

And if that kind of information had been found, you would think that the Council would know that Harry's self-defense claim was valid, rather than having a bunch of them still disbelieve it as of Summer Knight.

Edit:  Also, I cannot honestly see how the WC wouldn't know of DuMorne's other apprentice.  They investigated the events, and I cannot believe Harry would have been able to recount a credible lie (nor why he'd even have tried) that omitted Elaine's role in trying to help DuMorne enthrall Harry; he'd have still been shaken, and in accute mental/emotional distress; they would have been cross-examining him, discussing his likely death right there in front of him.  This does not create the environment for Harry to tell a lie... especially one he'd see no need to tell!  It's not like he thought he was protecting her!!!  The WC dropped the "Elaine issue" simply because Harry was absolutely convinced that she died in the fire; his certainty of that was what convinced them.

Based on what Harry thinks of the White Council in the early books, and the fact that he must have had a reason to develop that opinion, I had always assumed that Harry's trial was similar to Harry Potter's from OotP, complete with leading questions to prevent Harry from defending himself and Harry's outburst of "But he was trying to murder me! He set a demon on me and--" "Preposterous! There is no way that..." etc. Which is not a good environment for acquiring all the details.

Also, I'm pretty sure that it says somewhere in Summer Knight that the Council doesn't know that Justin had a second apprentice--but I don't have access to the book right now, so I can't look it up.

[huangjimmy108]

Your explanation is pretty good, except the part I highlighted.  The problem with your explanation isn't in book 13 (Ghost Story) and your explanation would be logical one except for what came later.  The problem is Jim's writing about Harry and Murphy's first meeting in book 14 (Cold Days).  First we have Butters having this conversation with Harry:

 "It's more of a roller coaster, lately, but a good mind is flexible," Butters said. "I'll deal with it; don't worry." He worked for a moment more before adding, in a low murmur, "Unlike some other people."

"Eh?" I asked him.

Butters just looked up across the large apartment and then went back to work.

I followed the direction of his gaze.

Karrin sat curled up in a chair beside the fireplace, on the far side of the big apartment, her arms wrapped around her knees, her head leaning against the chair's back. Her eyes were closed and her mouth was open a little. She was evidently asleep. The gentle snoring supported that theory.

"Oh," I said. "Uh. Yeah. She didn't seem to handle it real well when I was ghosting around. . . ."

"Understatement," Butters breathed. "She's been through a lot. And none of it made her a bit less prickly."

Thomas made a low sound of agreement.

"She's run most of her friends off," Butters said. "Never talks to cops anymore. Hasn't been speaking to her family. Just the Viking crew down at the BFS. I'm hanging in there. So is Molly. I guess maybe we both know that she's in a bad place."


So it's pretty clear that Murphy hasn't really healed at this point in time.  Then a page or two later Murphy guilt trips Harry into giving back Bob and acknowledging that Karrin would keep the swords.  While that conversation really annoyed some readers what I got out of it was this part:

"I'm not angry at you, Harry," she said. "I don't hate you. I don't think you've gone bad. A lot of people have fallen into the trap you did. People better than either of us."

"Uh," I said. "The evil-Queen-of-Faerie trap?"

"Christ, Harry," Murphy said quietly. "No one just starts giggling and wearing black and signs up to become a villainous monster. How the hell do you think it happens?" She shook her head, her eyes pained. "It happens to people. Just people. They make questionable choices, for what might be very good reasons. They make choice after choice, and none of them is slaughtering roomfuls of saints, or murdering hundreds of baby seals, or rubber-room irrational. But it adds up. And then one day they look around and realize that they're so far over the line that they can't remember where it was."

I really wondered when I read that if Murphy wasn't referring to herself in the part I highlighted.  She was in a pretty dark place emotionally in Ghost Story.  We know she terminated two sorcerers with extreme prejudice before ghost Harry showed up in that book.  I think there is more to Murphy's story that we haven't heard yet, and before we do it's difficult to know where her path may lead.

Why be confuse on where her path may lead? End of skin game has show us exactly where her path may lead. Well, at least in regards to her psycological and emotional health the signs are all good and clear. If we are talking about this issue at the end of book 13 or end of book 14, then yes, I must agree with you that Murphy is still in a bad place. End of skin game however, put an end to this issue. Unless future books show otherwise, I see no reason to assume negatively about Murphy's psycological condition.

About her condition after end of book 13. Well, I say at the end of book 13 Murphy has gotten her closure. She can start her road to recovery but she has not recovered yet. Harry's return in book 14however, though prove to be a shock, can be considered as Murphy taking a miracle Elixir in terms of her psycological and emotional illness. Her cold and rather prickly reaction at the beginning soons turns better and it is visible even during book 14, and to me that is very normal.

Psycological problems are like that. Before the problem is solved, the issue seems like a tall mountain blocking Heaven and earth. But once the problem is solved, the problem will disappear like morning fog.

This is not even unprecedented. Murphy suffers from the nightmare at the end of book 3. For the whole year between book 3 and book 4 she gotten nowhere and probably gotten worse. But once she conquers her fears and face the assassin in book 4, she recovers and recovers fast.

The same apply here. Once Harry's return from the dead is confirm true, what exactly is Murphy regreting? what exactly is her uncertainties?

Exactly nothing. Why should she be depressed and gloomy anymore? There is no reason for her to stay dark after that.

[Bad Alias]

I came to the conclusion that Murphy has some issues Harry isn't really aware of because sometimes he misses the obvious thing staring him in the face. There's a reason she landed in Special Investigations, and I don't think it's just because she's a girl in a boys' club, and the boys got mad. She probably did something that wasn't quite a fireable offense.

Her character always drove me nuts until I realized that. Her antagonistic relationship with Harry in Storm Front makes sense. It doesn't in Fool Moon, at all. After that, Murphy's pretty level for a while, but every time we see Murphy playing politics, she's making the most aggressive play that's guaranteed to piss people off who she might need in the future. Then there's her plot arc of trusting and not trusting Harry in Ghost Story/Cold Days/Skin Game. (The part of that arc that really annoy's me is Butters doing the same thing). It's rational in Ghost Story, at first. Then it's not but still understandable. Her hesitance to trust Harry in Cold Days makes sense, too. Her approach is still overly aggressive, as always. And then in Skin Game, she just completely trusts Harry even though he is being super secretive and working with a guy the Devil keeps at arms length. For reasons?

Murphy might lead the Bolshevik Muppet branch of a national organization, but she doesn't have the right temperament to lead any diverse national organization or deal successfully with an arrogant, stodgy, and powerful organization like the White Council, at least not in the long-term.

That doesn't mean that she won't lead the Paranet (which is a PARAnormal NETwork and therefore a loosely affiliated collection of disparate people and groups that isn't likely to have centralized leadership?) because people with skills handling one kind of situation are often thought to be competent in another completely different situation. "He's a war hero, of course he should lead us in a time of peace where economic policy should be our primary focus!"

[huangjimmy108]

I came to the conclusion that Murphy has some issues Harry isn't really aware of because sometimes he misses the obvious thing staring him in the face. There's a reason she landed in Special Investigations, and I don't think it's just because she's a girl in a boys' club, and the boys got mad. She probably did something that wasn't quite a fireable offense.

Her character always drove me nuts until I realized that. Her antagonistic relationship with Harry in Storm Front makes sense. It doesn't in Fool Moon, at all. After that, Murphy's pretty level for a while, but every time we see Murphy playing politics, she's making the most aggressive play that's guaranteed to piss people off who she might need in the future. Then there's her plot arc of trusting and not trusting Harry in Ghost Story/Cold Days/Skin Game. (The part of that arc that really annoy's me is Butters doing the same thing). It's rational in Ghost Story, at first. Then it's not but still understandable. Her hesitance to trust Harry in Cold Days makes sense, too. Her approach is still overly aggressive, as always. And then in Skin Game, she just completely trusts Harry even though he is being super secretive and working with a guy the Devil keeps at arms length. For reasons?

Murphy might lead the Bolshevik Muppet branch of a national organization, but she doesn't have the right temperament to lead any diverse national organization or deal successfully with an arrogant, stodgy, and powerful organization like the White Council, at least not in the long-term.

That doesn't mean that she won't lead the Paranet (which is a PARAnormal NETwork and therefore a loosely affiliated collection of disparate people and groups that isn't likely to have centralized leadership?) because people with skills handling one kind of situation are often thought to be competent in another completely different situation. "He's a war hero, of course he should lead us in a time of peace where economic policy should be our primary focus!"

Because it is easier to believe something if it is something you wanted to be true in the firstplace.
Murphy probably wanted harry not to be dead very much. So much so that she could not trust her own judgement. This could explain why her innitial reaction upon meeting is the way it is. It is such a good news, it is almost too good to be true.

Fortunately, harry truely return. Once the surprise effect is over, adapting to such a good and happy news, something murphy originally wanted to begin with, should be simple and ought to happened quickly. This should explain why by skin game murphy is willing to trust harry that much. Tyr

[Mira]

Why be confuse on where her path may lead? End of skin game has show us exactly where her path may lead. Well, at least in regards to her psycological and emotional health the signs are all good and clear. If we are talking about this issue at the end of book 13 or end of book 14, then yes, I must agree with you that Murphy is still in a bad place. End of skin game however, put an end to this issue. Unless future books show otherwise, I see no reason to assume negatively about Murphy's psycological condition.

Are they?   I don't think we can assume anything,  last time we saw her she was in a hospital bed on pain meds..  Yes, Harry kissed her and gave her a small fortune in  diamonds, so yeah, at that moment she was in a happy place... But we've heard nothing one way or the other since then...

Her character always drove me nuts until I realized that. Her antagonistic relationship with Harry in Storm Front makes sense. It doesn't in Fool Moon, at all. After that, Murphy's pretty level for a while, but every time we see Murphy playing politics, she's making the most aggressive play that's guaranteed to piss people off who she might need in the future. Then there's her plot arc of trusting and not trusting Harry in Ghost Story/Cold Days/Skin Game. (The part of that arc that really annoy's me is Butters doing the same thing). It's rational in Ghost Story, at first. Then it's not but still understandable. Her hesitance to trust Harry in Cold Days makes sense, too. Her approach is still overly aggressive, as always. And then in Skin Game, she just completely trusts Harry even though he is being super secretive and working with a guy the Devil keeps at arms length. For reasons?

Did she?   Like KurtinStGeorge I won't go down that rabbit hole again... Suffice it to say that her actions got a Holy Sword broken that day..   To quote Measter Aemon, "love is the death of duty.."
Bad for a man of the Night's Watch, and for a career policewomen as well, she might be retired or fired from the force but she still is one, in her heart..  It could have ramifications later on... Just saying..