Role of Murphy going forward

[huangjimmy108]

If any contact, coordination or even integration between the paranet and the White council is ever going to go anywhere, Elaine surely cannot be the one who does it. In the eyes of the White council incumbant leaders, Elaine is a missing warlock. I do not think Elaine would dare to get in contact with white council in any capacity, let alone coordinating with them on a regulat basis. The more she gtet into contact with the white council the greater chances she will get caught. Unless the paranet is going to be completely isolated from the white council, there must be someone who need to get into contact with the council on a regular basis and develop the relationship between the 2 organizations. This person may not be Murphy, but it can't be Elaine.

Harry, Luccio and Ramirez are high level arcane talents and best use elsewhere. They can be summon to help the paranet in case of a crisis, but it will be a huge waste of talent to let them manage and coordinate with the paranet on a day to day basis. Besides, Harry, Luccio and Ramirez already has their affiliation. They are all White council members. None of them are suitable to held an official leadership role in the paranet unless the paranet is willing to become a vassal organization under the council instead of being an independant ally. It is true that Murphy don't have the magical talent to be considered as a minor practicianer, but many of the paranet talents are so minor it might as well be non existent, so Murphy not having a magical talent is not that much of a deal. From this consideration, making Murphy the official leader is better than say making Luccio or Ramirez the official leader. Harry is even worse. Not only he is member of the white council, he is also the winter knight. The paranet is a loose organization, it don't need a super power to leads it unless the paranet wants to draw fire to itself. Note I say official leader, not spiritual leader. Harry, Ramirez, Luccio, Elaine will always be the spiritual leader of paranet. Their big brothers and big sisters, their behind the scene backer, but putting either one of them on the official seat as the leader of the paranet will cause more harm than good. Well, unless the paranet grow into a real power on it's own. If the paranet can do that, having Elaine or Harry as the leader will be good, but for now the paranet is not a power yet.

As Murphy only coordinating locally in Chicago. Well, It wouldn't surprise me if Chicago become the centre of paranet itself. If the paranet ever going to have a central HQ, it will be either in Chicago or in L.A. where Elaine is currently operating. Chicago is the paranet birthplace after all. In this case, being the local head in Chicago is in fact a good indicator for Murphy if anyone is going to become the official leader of the paranet. I consider Chicago is better than L.A. since Baron Marcone one of the freeholding lord of the unceli accord and Lara Wraith de facto leader of the white court is also stationed in Chicago. Keep your friends close and your enemies Closer so to speak.

For me, Murphy may or may not be the head leader of the paranet, but she is at least the top management. If the paranet is a company and Elaine is the CEO, Murphy is at least head of human resources which in many companies is considered second in command.

[nadia.skylark]

f any contact, coordination or even integration between the paranet and the White council is ever going to go anywhere, Elaine surely cannot be the one who does it. In the eyes of the White council incumbant leaders, Elaine is a missing warlock.

No she isn't. No one except Harry even knows that Justin had another apprentice, much less who it is. In the eyes of the Council, Elaine is a minor talent coordinating other minor talents, who also happens to be more effective than her apparent power level would suggest.

I do not think Elaine would dare to get in contact with white council in any capacity, let alone coordinating with them on a regulat basis. The more she gtet into contact with the white council the greater chances she will get caught. Unless the paranet is going to be completely isolated from the white council, there must be someone who need to get into contact with the council on a regular basis and develop the relationship between the 2 organizations. This person may not be Murphy, but it can't be Elaine.

I would agree with you, except that in Cold Case it is made explicit that she is coordinating with Ramirez. So at this point I figure that Elaine is less afraid of White Council contact, probably figuring that after all this time no one is going to spontaneously realize that she was Justin's apprentice when they don't even know that such a person ever existed.

Harry, Luccio and Ramirez are high level arcane talents and best use elsewhere. They can be summon to help the paranet in case of a crisis, but it will be a huge waste of talent to let them manage and coordinate with the paranet on a day to day basis.

Run the Paranet, maybe, but I think any of them would be reasonably well-suited to being the contact point between the Paranet and the White Council (admittedly, Harry has some problems in this regard, but he also has the strongest claim on the position, so I figure it cancels out).

Besides, Harry, Luccio and Ramirez already has their affiliation. They are all White council members. None of them are suitable to held an official leadership role in the paranet unless the paranet is willing to become a vassal organization under the council instead of being an independant ally.

Okay, now I'm just confused. I keep saying "Elaine is the head of the Paranet already. What they really need is someone to facilitate communication between the two. Murphy is not the right person for that." I'm not sure how Ramirez's, Luccio's, and Harry's affiliation with the White Council would be a problem for that. (Also, Harry is at least as affiliated with the Paranet as the White Council, given that he founded it. Clearly you can have multiple political affiliations, because Harry is affiliated with both the White Council and the Winter Court, and no one's come up to him and said "sorry, you can't do that.")

It is true that Murphy don't have the magical talent to be considered as a minor practicianer, but many of the paranet talents are so minor it might as well be non existent, so Murphy not having a magical talent is not that much of a deal.

Maybe? I don't think so, but I suppose it's possible that Jim feels differently.

From this consideration, making Murphy the official leader is better than say making Luccio or Ramirez the official leader. Harry is even worse. Not only he is member of the white council, he is also the winter knight. The paranet is a loose organization, it don't need a super power to leads it unless the paranet wants to draw fire to itself.

See above about the leader thing. Also, it could certainly use powerful forces supporting it--that's why it coordinates with wizards and the White Court.

Harry, Ramirez, Luccio, Elaine will always be the spiritual leader of paranet.

Ramirez and Luccio aren't spiritual leaders of the Paranet--they're not even part of the Paranet! They are explicitly White Council wizards who feel that the White Council would benefit from working more closely with the Paranet.

Their big brothers and big sisters, their behind the scene backer, but putting either one of them on the official seat as the leader of the paranet will cause more harm than good. Well, unless the paranet grow into a real power on it's own. If the paranet can do that, having Elaine or Harry as the leader will be good, but for now the paranet is not a power yet.

Elaine is already the official leader of the Paranet. I just spend a chunk of my last post explaining that. And it clearly isn't doing more harm than good, because the Paranet seems to be doing quite well for itself.

As Murphy only coordinating locally in Chicago. Well, It wouldn't surprise me if Chicago become the centre of paranet itself. If the paranet ever going to have a central HQ, it will be either in Chicago or in L.A. where Elaine is currently operating. Chicago is the paranet birthplace after all. In this case, being the local head in Chicago is in fact a good indicator for Murphy if anyone is going to become the official leader of the paranet.

I believe that headquarters is in L.A. Harry may be the co-founder and former go-to heavy weight, but Elaine was the one doing most of the day-to-day organization, from what I understood. Also, Ramirez seems to have taken Harry's place at least temporarily as wizard-on-call, and he's based out of L.A.

For me, Murphy may or may not be the head leader of the paranet, but she is at least the top management. If the paranet is a company and Elaine is the CEO, Murphy is at least head of human resources which in many companies is considered second in command.

No. Because if Murphy were part of the Paranet, much less high up in the command structure, then there would not have needed to be a separate Paranet representative at the meeting we saw, and yet there clearly was one. This meeting consisted of: a representative of the White Court, a representative of the Paranet, a representative of Marcone (unless he arrived early and then left before the meeting--I don't have my book to check), other sundry people concerned with Chicago's defense (including Will Borden and Daniel Carpenter), and Murphy. This is also, to my knowledge, the only time we have ever seen Murphy interacting with the Paranet. It provides as much evidence of her being high up in the Paranet's command structure as her being high up in the White Court's command structure--less, actually, since we've at least seen her interacting with the White Court more than once.

[dspringer1]

Because of this, and because of the fact that we have a WoJ that Elaine is the Paranet's CEO, I believe that Elaine is already filling the role that you want Murphy to fill. As such, what I perceive you saying is "Elaine is completely incompetent and must be replaced immediately by Murphy, who is just so much better that she can single-handedly accomplish in months what several other people, who have far more resources and advantages when it comes to solving this issue, have been attempting to do for years." I object to this. It makes several characters incompetent for no good reason, and butchers their characterization in doing so.

However, it is now apparent that you are not saying this--you're just arguing from a different (wrong) premise. If the Paranet had never been formed, and low-level magic users were still at the level of organization that we saw in White Night (mostly local groups, some communication between them but it's sporadic and unreliable) then I would agree that Murphy would be a good person to organize them. The Murphy we see in Ghost Story and Cold Days would be a very good person to organize something like the Paranet, only with more vanilla mortals in it as well. The problem is, the Paranet has already been formed, and already does the things you thing that Murphy would organize it to do.

I have not seen the WoJ, so cannot speak to what it said.   But your statement above is not consistent with what we saw in the books. 
•   Paranet up to the events in changes is a decentralized help network, providing advice and ability to get assistant from Harry or other key leader
•   Paranet in Ghost Story has evolved into a defensive organization, spreading news of attacks and encouraging people to behave defensively.  Murphy is clearly directing where some of the military forces are being directed, including where to call in Ramirez or white court hit teams. 
•   In no way was the paranet EVER described as some centralized organization.    It has always been described as a series of city/town focused groups with some central coordination.   Remember, the paranet was created on the back of the existing social structure for minor practitioners – aka a lot of local organizations.    You can argue that this structure changed dramatically with the formor. Not sure I buy that, but if you do then you do. 

I am not saying that Murphy is the ONLY one who can lead the paranet.  To be honest, I am not sure the paranet would ever have “one” leader.  The org screams “committee” to me.  But Murphy is the most likely candidate for the “chair” simply because she is very well known, she already has a personal relationship with all the key people, she IS a heroic figure to the lay members of the paranet and is well situated to represent their interests.     

It is true she is not a practitioner, but not sure that is a big deal given the org is likely run by committee.  Given that many practitioners have very little power, I doubt magical power has much bearing in the authority any individual has within the Paranet.   I could easily see the Paranet including a number of individuals that are not practitioners, but are useful/supernaturally aware.  After all, their common interest is awareness of the supernatural and vulnerability to the supernatural.    However, if the organization defines itself as Magical Practitioners, then there is no chance of Murphy being a leader. 

I suspect Elaine can be a highly effective leader as well – and she may very run the Paranet’s national organization.  I do agree that Elaine would not be considered a warlock UNLESS she was associated with Justine.  Not joining the White Council is not against the laws of magic.  But Elaine’s fear of this will keep her from taking a very public role with the White Council. 

What contacts outside of Chicago does Murphy have that Elaine doesn't?

White Court, Marcone, Odin’s people, White Council, Knights of the Cross, Supernatural part of the Church, Winter Lady, Billy Borden and the Alphas – all of which are at least significant players at the power level Paranet operates in.  Most are freaky scary at the level the paranet operates. 

It is not that Elaine cannot find out people’s phone numbers or get an introduction.  My point is that Murphy is well known and respected by these individuals.  Elaine can develop that relationship as well – but I doubt she has that today.   And Chicago seems to be where all the external help is coordinated from – so Chicago is important.    In all fairness, Elaine probably has a lot more contacts with the individual Paranet organizations.   I suspect Elaine has more power within the paranet itself.   But I was not addressing that question, but the question of who would make a good public leader of the paranet. 

[huangjimmy108]

No she isn't. No one except Harry even knows that Justin had another apprentice, much less who it is. In the eyes of the Council, Elaine is a minor talent coordinating other minor talents, who also happens to be more effective than her apparent power level would suggest.

I would agree with you, except that in Cold Case it is made explicit that she is coordinating with Ramirez. So at this point I figure that Elaine is less afraid of White Council contact, probably figuring that after all this time no one is going to spontaneously realize that she was Justin's apprentice when they don't even know that such a person ever existed.

Run the Paranet, maybe, but I think any of them would be reasonably well-suited to being the contact point between the Paranet and the White Council (admittedly, Harry has some problems in this regard, but he also has the strongest claim on the position, so I figure it cancels out).

Okay, now I'm just confused. I keep saying "Elaine is the head of the Paranet already. What they really need is someone to facilitate communication between the two. Murphy is not the right person for that." I'm not sure how Ramirez's, Luccio's, and Harry's affiliation with the White Council would be a problem for that. (Also, Harry is at least as affiliated with the Paranet as the White Council, given that he founded it. Clearly you can have multiple political affiliations, because Harry is affiliated with both the White Council and the Winter Court, and no one's come up to him and said "sorry, you can't do that.")

Maybe? I don't think so, but I suppose it's possible that Jim feels differently.

See above about the leader thing. Also, it could certainly use powerful forces supporting it--that's why it coordinates with wizards and the White Court.

Ramirez and Luccio aren't spiritual leaders of the Paranet--they're not even part of the Paranet! They are explicitly White Council wizards who feel that the White Council would benefit from working more closely with the Paranet.

Elaine is already the official leader of the Paranet. I just spend a chunk of my last post explaining that. And it clearly isn't doing more harm than good, because the Paranet seems to be doing quite well for itself.

I believe that headquarters is in L.A. Harry may be the co-founder and former go-to heavy weight, but Elaine was the one doing most of the day-to-day organization, from what I understood. Also, Ramirez seems to have taken Harry's place at least temporarily as wizard-on-call, and he's based out of L.A.

No. Because if Murphy were part of the Paranet, much less high up in the command structure, then there would not have needed to be a separate Paranet representative at the meeting we saw, and yet there clearly was one. This meeting consisted of: a representative of the White Court, a representative of the Paranet, a representative of Marcone (unless he arrived early and then left before the meeting--I don't have my book to check), other sundry people concerned with Chicago's defense (including Will Borden and Daniel Carpenter), and Murphy. This is also, to my knowledge, the only time we have ever seen Murphy interacting with the Paranet. It provides as much evidence of her being high up in the Paranet's command structure as her being high up in the White Court's command structure--less, actually, since we've at least seen her interacting with the White Court more than once.

Hoping that the council won't ever found out Elaine's little secret is asking a bit too much. The council are wizards after all, and gathering intelligence is one of their main bread and butter.

If Elaine stay ananomous and hide amongst the masses it is one thing, but if she appears as the head honcho of a major organization, the council is bound to dig up her background, especially if this organization is about to engage in an alliance with the council.

Making contact with Ramirez on a personal basis is one thing. Interacting with the council as an organization is another thing entirely. Ramirez is young and rather tolerant, shown by the way he slack off when the order to catch Molly comes up, but if the paranet is going to ally with the council as an organization, Elaine won't be dealing with Ramirez only but with the likes of Morgan and Langtry.

Even her relationship with Ramirez is on shaky ground because their relationship is based on a lie. Elaine is still hiding her powers after all, even if Ramirez has some incling, Elaine and Ramirez has not handle this issue openly and clear the air to my knowledge.

In my opinion, as long as Elaine stay as the head honcho of the paranet, any formal alliance between the paranet and the council is pretty much impossible. Having some contacts and back door dealings with more tolerant individual members of the council is as much as the paranet could go. In such a case, a official contact person aka embassador is rather unnescesary.

Also I want to emphasize that Murphy's vanilla status is very unlikely to effect anything if she wanted to join the paranet, assuming she is not a member already. If we want to be frank about it, when it comes to common ground, the average practicianer on the paranet has a lot more in common with a vanilla mortal compare to a wizard level talent like Ramirez.

With minor practicianers living amongst the common folk and with most of them still young and has their friends and family around, I will be the first to disbelieve if you tell me that there is no vanilla mortals within the  membership of the paranet. Well, As long as the vanilla mortal is not in denial land like Rudolph. I suspect that the paranet has develop from an organization of minor practicianers into an organization of everyone who is clued in on the supernatural world. People like members of SI, Mickey Mallone, Agent Tilly and so on. Charity, Butters, Michael probably is a member as well. It will be stupid not to join the paranet if you are clued in. The information spread on the paranet could save your lives after all, and if I am a minor practicianer I would have recommend my friends and family to join too, so long as they can handle it and not go insane like Rudolph.

As for Harry. He is trusted by the paranet, that is true.  but even though he is a member of the council, he is not trusted by the council's current leadership. He is the winter knight and warden of demonreach. If he acted as the go between the paranet and the council, it could possibly worsen the problem. The council fears him. Which such circumstance,  It won't be clear if the paranet wanted to ally with the council or wanted to intimidate them instead?
Luccio is captain of the wardens. She is practically the council's grand Marshal. Asking her to act as a go between is a bit much.

[nadia.skylark]

But your statement above is not consistent with what we saw in the books. 

It's consistent with what I saw. You appear to have seen something else.

Paranet up to the events in changes is a decentralized help network, providing advice and ability to get assistant from Harry or other key leader

The Paranet, as I understood it, was designed to create a centralized network to coordinate a group of people that have been notably decentralized up until that point.

Paranet in Ghost Story has evolved into a defensive organization, spreading news of attacks and encouraging people to behave defensively.  Murphy is clearly directing where some of the military forces are being directed, including where to call in Ramirez or white court hit teams. 

As I understood it, the Paranet was always a defensive organization, and what changed is their level of coordination with other groups. Murphy was (maybe) directing where Ramirez and White Court hit teams went, but I don't see how that makes her in charge of the Paranet--neither of those people/groups belong to the Paranet.

In no way was the paranet EVER described as some centralized organization.    It has always been described as a series of city/town focused groups with some central coordination.   Remember, the paranet was created on the back of the existing social structure for minor practitioners – aka a lot of local organizations.    You can argue that this structure changed dramatically with the formor. Not sure I buy that, but if you do then you do.

I'm arguing that the point of the Paranet has always been to centralize a bunch of unrelated groups, and that it has been moving toward that continuously.

I am not saying that Murphy is the ONLY one who can lead the paranet.

Oh, good.

To be honest, I am not sure the paranet would ever have “one” leader.  The org screams “committee” to me.

Makes sense to me.

But Murphy is the most likely candidate for the “chair” simply because she is very well known, she already has a personal relationship with all the key people, she IS a heroic figure to the lay members of the paranet and is well situated to represent their interests.

This doesn't make sense to me, because as I understand it, Murphy is in the position of "valued and trusted ally." And allies of an organization, no matter how valued and trusted, don't suddenly end up in charge of that organization without either some sort of takeover, or a lot of people thinking that there's some sort of takeover.

Wasn't someone arguing earlier that no member of the White Council could end up in charge for precisely this reason?

It is true she is not a practitioner, but not sure that is a big deal given the org is likely run by committee.  Given that many practitioners have very little power, I doubt magical power has much bearing in the authority any individual has within the Paranet.   I could easily see the Paranet including a number of individuals that are not practitioners, but are useful/supernaturally aware.  After all, their common interest is awareness of the supernatural and vulnerability to the supernatural.    However, if the organization defines itself as Magical Practitioners, then there is no chance of Murphy being a leader. 

This seems to be another case of different understandings. I have always understood the Paranet to define itself as an organization of magical practitioners. I could see this maybe changing due to the war against the Fomor, but I feel like we'd need to see that change well in advance of Murphy being put in charge.

I suspect Elaine can be a highly effective leader as well – and she may very run the Paranet’s national organization.  I do agree that Elaine would not be considered a warlock UNLESS she was associated with Justine.  Not joining the White Council is not against the laws of magic.  But Elaine’s fear of this will keep her from taking a very public role with the White Council. 

I, on the other hand, see Elaine's fear having waned significantly, since she has at this point been working with Ramirez for years, and seems quite comfortable with it. Also, Harry at least doesn't see this as being a problem, given that he was advocating that the White Council work with the Paranet since sometime before Changes, and he's well aware of Elaine's issues.

White Court, Marcone, Odin’s people, White Council, Knights of the Cross, Supernatural part of the Church, Winter Lady, Billy Borden and the Alphas

No, no, maybe, no, no, no, no, and no. Did I not specifically say that I wasn't counting contacts through Harry and Harry's actions? (Also, we know that Elaine has contacts with at least the White Court and the White Council, because we've seen it in the books. And Molly doesn't have a huge reason to like Murphy--their relationship in Ghost Story was fairly adversarial, and their interaction in Cold Days mostly consisted of her getting politely kicked out of her own apartment so that the person she was in love with could have a conversation with Murphy (who is her rival in that department). She may be polite about working with Murphy at need, but I don't see them having much of a relationship outside of "we're mostly on the same side and both like Harry.")

Also, what does having outside contacts have to do with being the leader of the Paranet? I've been meaning to ask this. At best, it would make one a good ambassador to those organizations, or someone who coordinates between them. And Murphy would be a very bad coordinator/ambassador to the White Council, because her connection to them is extremely tenuous (she's met Luccio all of once and has maybe worked with Ramirez off screen) and explicitly doesn't trust them.

It is not that Elaine cannot find out people’s phone numbers or get an introduction.  My point is that Murphy is well known and respected by these individuals.  Elaine can develop that relationship as well – but I doubt she has that today.

Maybe. But see above regarding what this has to do with running the Paranet. If you're looking for someone with the contacts to coordinate between different powerful groups, then that's Harry way more than it's ever Murphy. Seriously, name one supernatural contact that a) Murphy did not get through Harry and b) does not know/respect Harry as much or more than Murphy. And that's not counting the contacts that Harry has that Murphy doesn't.

And Chicago seems to be where all the external help is coordinated from – so Chicago is important.

Maybe. Or maybe it's just that we only see Chicago, and meetings like this are taking place in a bunch of different cities. We don't know.

In all fairness, Elaine probably has a lot more contacts with the individual Paranet organizations.   I suspect Elaine has more power within the paranet itself.   But I was not addressing that question, but the question of who would make a good public leader of the paranet. 

So what you're saying is that Elaine should be the head of the shadow government of the Paranet, while Murphy serves the purpose of puppet leader/public face for the purposes of working with other organizations. You know, I can actually see that working really well--except that I think Murphy would probably object. She might get talked into it, though, so who knows?

Hoping that the council won't ever found out Elaine's little secret is asking a bit too much. The council are wizards after all, and gathering intelligence is one of their main bread and butter.

If Elaine stay ananomous and hide amongst the masses it is one thing, but if she appears as the head honcho of a major organization, the council is bound to dig up her background, especially if this organization is about to engage in an alliance with the council.

Maybe. On the other hand, the people who actually know about the Justin thing appear to all be either  dead or Harry, so...

(there might be some members of the Summer Court left, but probably not many given how faeries don't share information, and given that they would all have been involved in the battle above Chicago (and some of them we saw die on screen there) and then been involved in a war with the Red Court (even if they didn't fight in too many battles) and then involved in the Demonreach incident, not to mention that they've had more than ten years to get themselves killed in other ways, I feel like "they're all dead" is probably a safer assumption than "they're alive and just waiting to convince the White Council to make a trade for information, even though the White Council has no reason to assume that the Summer Court in particular would have information.")

Making contact with Ramirez on a personal basis is one thing. Interacting with the council as an organization is another thing entirely. Ramirez is young and rather tolerant, shown by the way he slack off when the order to catch Molly comes up, but if the paranet is going to ally with the council as an organization, Elaine won't be dealing with Ramirez only but with the likes of Morgan and Langtry.

Maybe. But not very often, I don't think, and working with someone for years puts one at far greater risk than having a few formal meetings with people. Also, having Ramirez say "this person's on our side. She's had plenty of chances to screw us over and lead us into traps, but instead has been nothing but helpful" is probably going to ratchet down suspicion.

Even her relationship with Ramirez is on shaky ground because their relationship is based on a lie. Elaine is still hiding her powers after all, even if Ramirez has some incling, Elaine and Ramirez has not handle this issue openly and clear the air to my knowledge.

Meh. Even if Ramirez does work out that she's hiding her power, that's hardly going to lead to the assumption that she's a warlock--it's more likely to lead to the assumption that she didn't want to get drafted like Harry did. And as you pointed out, Ramirez is fairly tolerant, and he's had years to see that Elaine is interested in helping rather than working against the White Council.

In my opinion, as long as Elaine stay as the head honcho of the paranet, any formal alliance between the paranet and the council is pretty much impossible. Having some contacts and back door dealings with more tolerant individual members of the council is as much as the paranet could go. In such a case, a official contact person aka embassador is rather unnescesary.

So what you're saying is that Elaine needs to be thrown out of her position. Personally, I feel that this is a disservice to her character, but I suppose I can get behind the Paranet not formally working with the White Council until after Elaine is proven to be a bad guy, if that's what ends up happening to her. So long as she's not thrown out for incompetence/inability to get over her issues.

Also I want to emphasize that Murphy's vanilla status is very unlikely to effect anything if she wanted to join the paranet, assuming she is not a member already. If we want to be frank about it, when it comes to common ground, the average practicianer on the paranet has a lot more in common with a vanilla mortal compare to a wizard level talent like Ramirez.

Her vanilla status is important to the Paranet insomuch as she really ought to be a member before she ends up running it, and to my knowledge the Paranet is an organization of magical practitioner.

Her vanilla status is more relevant to her interactions with the White Council, however, because as you pointed out, someone who wants to get the Paranet to work with the White Council is going to have to deal with Langtry and people like him, and those people are far less likely to respect/work with her due to her lack of magical talent.

With minor practicianers living amongst the common folk and with most of them still young and has their friends and family around, I will be the first to disbelieve if you tell me that there is no vanilla mortals within the  membership of the paranet. Well, As long as the vanilla mortal is not in denial land like Rudolph. I suspect that the paranet has develop from an organization of minor practicianers into an organization of everyone who is clued in on the supernatural world. People like members of SI, Mickey Mallone, Agent Tilly and so on. Charity, Butters, Michael probably is a member as well. It will be stupid not to join the paranet if you are clued in. The information spread on the paranet could save your lives after all, and if I am a minor practicianer I would have recommend my friends and family to join too, so long as they can handle it and not go insane like Rudolph.

You may suspect and disbelieve all you like. The fact is, canon has stated that the Paranet is an organization of magical practitioners, and while that might have changed, we need to see that in the books before we accept it as incontrovertible truth.

Also, are you forgetting the Venatory Umbrorum? That's another organization of clued-in people, and one that explicitly accepts vanilla mortals. Furthermore, it's better connected than the Paranet because it's already an acknowledged ally of the White Council. Why should everyone and their cousin suddenly be part of the Paranet when nobody has felt the need to join the Venatori Umbrorum in all this time?

As for Harry. He is trusted by the paranet, that is true.  but even though he is a member of the council, he is not trusted by the council's current leadership. He is the winter knight and warden of demonreach. If he acted as the go between the paranet and the council, it could possibly worsen the problem. The council fears him. Which such circumstance,  It won't be clear if the paranet wanted to ally with the council or wanted to intimidate them instead?
Luccio is captain of the wardens. She is practically the council's grand Marshal. Asking her to act as a go between is a bit much.

Okay. This shows a fundamental misunderstanding with what I am trying to say, which I will now attempt to clear up.

For the Paranet to start officially working with the White Council, you need people in three positions:

1) You need the head/one of the people running the Paranet to be in favor of the idea.

2) You need someone who can effectively lobby the White Council into agreeing.

3) You need someone who knows both these people and can act as a go-between/support for both sides.

For position 1, I have been advocating for Elaine. She is one of the founders, she is in the position of CEO, and she's in favor of working with the White Council (as seen by her working with Ramirez and based on the fact that the Paranet was formed in response to a failure of minor practitioners to work with the White Council resulting in far too many deaths).

For position 2, I feel that Luccio would be best, since we know she's in favor of the idea, she's lobbying for it already, and she's the captain of the Wardens. Ramirez could also work or help Luccio with this. A distant third would be McCoy, if Harry convinces him to do so.

For position 3, either Harry or Ramirez could work. I feel that Harry would be better, except that he is generally mistrusted by a bunch of people in the White Council. I think that this will change, though, and based on the people claiming that Harry will end up as the Blackstaff or the Merlin, I'm not alone in that.

I do not feel that any one person can do all three jobs, and frankly it's better if no one tries to do two. And yet people keep arguing either as if I'm advocating one person for three/two jobs or as if they think one person should do it all. I just don't get it.

[huangjimmy108]

It's consistent with what I saw. You appear to have seen something else.

The Paranet, as I understood it, was designed to create a centralized network to coordinate a group of people that have been notably decentralized up until that point.

As I understood it, the Paranet was [/I]always[/I] a defensive organization, and what changed is their level of coordination with other groups. Murphy was (maybe) directing where Ramirez and White Court hit teams went, but I don't see how that makes her in charge of the Paranet--neither of those people/groups belong to the Paranet.

I'm arguing that the point of the Paranet has always been to centralize a bunch of unrelated groups, and that it has been moving toward that continuously.

Oh, good.

Makes sense to me.

This doesn't make sense to me, because as I understand it, Murphy is in the position of "valued and trusted ally." And allies of an organization, no matter how valued and trusted, don't suddenly end up in charge of that organization without either some sort of takeover, or a lot of people thinking that there's some sort of takeover.

Wasn't someone arguing earlier that no member of the White Council could end up in charge for precisely this reason?

This seems to be another case of different understandings. I have always understood the Paranet to define itself as an organization of magical practitioners. I could see this maybe changing due to the war against the Fomor, but I feel like we'd need to see that change well in advance of Murphy being put in charge.

I, on the other hand, see Elaine's fear having waned significantly, since she has at this point been working with Ramirez for years, and seems quite comfortable with it. Also, Harry at least doesn't see this as being a problem, given that he was advocating that the White Council work with the Paranet since sometime before Changes, and he's well aware of Elaine's issues.

No, no, maybe, no, no, no, no, and no. Did I not specifically say that I wasn't counting contacts through Harry and Harry's actions? (Also, we know that Elaine has contacts with at least the White Court and the White Council, because we've seen it in the books. And Molly doesn't have a huge reason to like Murphy--their relationship in Ghost Story was fairly adversarial, and their interaction in Cold Days mostly consisted of her getting politely kicked out of her own apartment so that the person she was in love with could have a conversation with Murphy (who is her rival in that department). She may be polite about working with Murphy at need, but I don't see them having much of a relationship outside of "we're mostly on the same side and both like Harry.")

Also, what does having outside contacts have to do with being the leader of the Paranet? I've been meaning to ask this. At best, it would make one a good ambassador to those organizations, or someone who coordinates between them. And Murphy would be a very bad coordinator/ambassador to the White Council, because her connection to them is extremely tenuous (she's met Luccio all of once and has maybe worked with Ramirez off screen) and explicitly doesn't trust them.

Maybe. But see above regarding what this has to do with running the Paranet. If you're looking for someone with the contacts to coordinate between different powerful groups, then that's Harry way more than it's ever Murphy. Seriously, name one supernatural contact that a) Murphy did not get through Harry and b) does not know/respect Harry as much or more than Murphy. And that's not counting the contacts that Harry has that Murphy doesn't.

Maybe. Or maybe it's just that we only see Chicago, and meetings like this are taking place in a bunch of different cities. We don't know.

So what you're saying is that Elaine should be the head of the shadow government of the Paranet, while Murphy serves the purpose of puppet leader/public face for the purposes of working with other organizations. You know, I can actually see that working really well--except that I think Murphy would probably object. She might get talked into it, though, so who knows?

Maybe. On the other hand, the people who actually know about the Justin thing appear to all be either  dead or Harry, so...

(there might be some members of the Summer Court left, but probably not many given how faeries don't share information, and given that they would all have been involved in the battle above Chicago (and some of them we saw die on screen there) and then been involved in a war with the Red Court (even if they didn't fight in too many battles) and then involved in the Demonreach incident, not to mention that they've had more than ten years to get themselves killed in other ways, I feel like "they're all dead" is probably a safer assumption than "they're alive and just waiting to convince the White Council to make a trade for information, even though the White Council has no reason to assume that the Summer Court in particular would have information.")

Maybe. But not very often, I don't think, and working with someone for years puts one at far greater risk than having a few formal meetings with people. Also, having Ramirez say "this person's on our side. She's had plenty of chances to screw us over and lead us into traps, but instead has been nothing but helpful" is probably going to ratchet down suspicion.

Meh. Even if Ramirez does work out that she's hiding her power, that's hardly going to lead to the assumption that she's a warlock--it's more likely to lead to the assumption that she didn't want to get drafted like Harry did. And as you pointed out, Ramirez is fairly tolerant, and he's had years to see that Elaine is interested in helping rather than working against the White Council.

So what you're saying is that Elaine needs to be thrown out of her position. Personally, I feel that this is a disservice to her character, but I suppose I can get behind the Paranet not formally working with the White Council until after Elaine is proven to be a bad guy, if that's what ends up happening to her. So long as she's not thrown out for incompetence/inability to get over her issues.

Her vanilla status is important to the Paranet insomuch as she really ought to be a member before she ends up running it, and to my knowledge the Paranet is an organization of magical practitioner.

Her vanilla status is more relevant to her interactions with the White Council, however, because as you pointed out, someone who wants to get the Paranet to work with the White Council is going to have to deal with Langtry and people like him, and those people are far less likely to respect/work with her due to her lack of magical talent.

You may suspect and disbelieve all you like. The fact is, canon has stated that the Paranet is an organization of magical practitioners, and while that might have changed, we need to see that in the books before we accept it as incontrovertible truth.

Also, are you forgetting the Venatory Umbrorum? That's another organization of clued-in people, and one that explicitly accepts vanilla mortals. Furthermore, it's better connected than the Paranet because it's already an acknowledged ally of the White Council. Why should everyone and their cousin suddenly be part of the Paranet when nobody has felt the need to join the Venatori Umbrorum in all this time?

Okay. This shows a fundamental misunderstanding with what I am trying to say, which I will now attempt to clear up.

For the Paranet to start officially working with the White Council, you need people in three positions:

1) You need the head/one of the people running the Paranet to be in favor of the idea.

2) You need someone who can effectively lobby the White Council into agreeing.

3) You need someone who knows both these people and can act as a go-between/support for both sides.

For position 1, I have been advocating for Elaine. She is one of the founders, she is in the position of CEO, and she's in favor of working with the White Council (as seen by her working with Ramirez and based on the fact that the Paranet was formed in response to a failure of minor practitioners to work with the White Council resulting in far too many deaths).

For position 2, I feel that Luccio would be best, since we know she's in favor of the idea, she's lobbying for it already, and she's the captain of the Wardens. Ramirez could also work or help Luccio with this. A distant third would be McCoy, if Harry convinces him to do so.

For position 3, either Harry or Ramirez could work. I feel that Harry would be better, except that he is generally mistrusted by a bunch of people in the White Council. I think that this will change, though, and based on the people claiming that Harry will end up as the Blackstaff or the Merlin, I'm not alone in that.

I do not feel that any one person can do all three jobs, and frankly it's better if no one tries to do two. And yet people keep arguing either as if I'm advocating one person for three/two jobs or as if they think one person should do it all. I just don't get it.

For one thing, I don't think Elaine is in favor of having anything to do with the white council. Yes, she has contact with Ramirez, but that is rather unavoidable. Ramirez is the local warden after all, and Elaine can't be seen purposely avoiding Ramirez less she'll raise suspicion.

Another point is the fact that Elaine is hiding her wizard level talent is a big problem in itself, even if her ascociation with Harry and Justin was never discovered. The council let those below wizard level go relatively free, but anyone with wizard level talents is never allow to be non member of the council else there would have been several wizard organizations aside from the council by now.

Also, having wizard level talent is one thing, but having the skill and knowledge of a qualified wizard is another thing entirely. Maybe Elaine can hide that she studies magic under Justin, though I doubt even that is possible. But if the fact that she lied about her talent levels is discovered, finding out that she is also skilled and knowledgable won't be too far of a stretch, and then the question: "Who is her teacher?" will come up. Things will go downhill from there.

Elaine could hide her power level from Ramirez because she is older and more expirience, but hiding her power levels from senior wizards like EB or Langtry will be nai impossible. Heck, I doubt Elaine could fooled Luccio for that matter.

In a world where magic exist, hoping that your secrets will stay save by assuming all witnesses is dead is not feasible. There are spirits that lived in multiple dimensions of time, There are powers with intelectus that could know everything about you if they just think about it. Who knows what else is there?

Note I do not say that Elaine can't be leader of paranet. I am just saying that if Elaine is the leader, the strategy to build a formal alliance with the white council cannot be done, which may not be a bad thing.

BTW: where exactly it is specified that the paranet is a practicianer only organization? Or where exactly it is specified that Murphy is an ally of the paranet instead of a member? I seem not to remember any of that.

[KurtinStGeorge]

I find this conversation about the Paranet and whether Murphy could be considered one of its leaders and the differences between Elaine and Murphy to be a very interesting one with good points made on both sides.  However, I have problems trying to figure out either Murphy or Elaine's path going forward. 

Murphy's future is difficult to predict because her injuries left her in limbo at the end of Skin Game.  Long-term, she has enough inside supernatural knowledge and information sources to act as some kind of coordinator or possibly even a spymaster.  She may be associated with the paranet, but I see any future role Murphy might play going forward as being wider and perhaps more freelance. 

More importantly, I don't feel I have a solid grasp on Murphy's character like I did before Changes.  In Ghost Story Murphy was pretty hard core.  Without hesitation she was ready to kill people she saw as a threat.  Granted, Murphy thought Harry had been murdered and she was a leader of a faction fighting a nasty street war against the Fomor, but she had gone from upholder of the law to hardcore vigilante in a matter of months.  All of that seemed to change in Cold Days.  What, Harry being alive suddenly takes Murphy from being Tank Girl psycho back to being regular Murphy again?  I don't want to get into her actions in Skin Game.  Too much ink has already been spilled over whether Murphy made a mistake anyone could have been suckered into vs her own arrogance and self-importance led her to fall for Nicodemus' trap.  The point is, I think Jim has some "splainin to do" in regards to where Murphy is psychologically.  I think her personal issues have to be worked through before I could see her as as a leader, ambassador (No she's not ambassador material.  Throw that idea out the window now.) or consultant for the paranet or anyone else.  I got the impression that Murphy went through an arc that brought her back to sanity prior to Harry's return in Cold Days.  If that's the case I really think Jim needs to tell us about that so we can better understand this character.

The problem I have with Elaine is much simpler.  She not just hiding her abilities and history from the Ramirez and White Council.  She's hiding things from Harry.  This was clearly hinted at in White Night.  I'm not saying Elaine has gone full "Red lightsaber" because I don't have enough information to make that call yet, but it's a possibility that she was responsible for Nemfecting Aurora and has been lying to Harry about Justin and how she was enthralled by him since Summer Knight.

Those suspicions aside, Elaine is clearly in a better position than Murphy to be considered a leader or one of the key leaders of the paranet.  However, she is not in any position to openly meet with or negotiate with higher ups in the White Council.  I seriously doubt she would want to even meet with Luccio.

The paranet itself is not a centralized organization.  There's no HQ.  There's no hierarchy or clearly defined chain of command.  It's more like an underground resistance movement or even a loosely affiliated terrorist organization.  There are cells within different cities.  Different people may be seen as a leader to a particular cell or within a particular city.  At one time Murphy may have even been thought of as one of those leaders.  It's not like someone in Houston, Texas is going to know that Murphy is a vanilla mortal.  Another more likely possibility that when Murphy sends information to a member of the paranet in Houston, the recipient doesn't know the exact identity of the sender, they would just know if the information came from a trusted source.  So how could anyone hold Murphy's vanilla mortal status against her if they don't know exactly who was helping them?  Should the paranet ever become more formalized and structured, then Murphy being seen as a full member might become problematic, but she could still be some type of consultant.  However, I don't see how the paranet ever reaches that level of organization except in a time of peace and safety, in which case would Murphy even want to be involved with it?  There's no reliable way to answer that question.

P.S.  Now that I think about it, there really is no such thing as "a full member of the paranet."  There's no sign up sheet with rules and stated group objectives.  There's no tests to take to prove one is worthy to join.  Finally, there's no organization to judge a person's merit to join it.  Take the guy who sends Butters information that he claims help track supernatural activity through statistics he gathered on the internet.  Just because he's aware of supernatural activity doesn't mean he has anymore magical ability than Murphy does.  Some people may participate in the paranet as a matter of survival while others just want to help because they see it as the right thing to do.   

   

[ClintACK]

KSG- Great points on Murphy and Elaine.

I'd only add that whatever we discover about each of them, it will be something that will hit Harry like a ton of bricks, right where it hurts.

[nadia.skylark]

For one thing, I don't think Elaine is in favor of having anything to do with the white council. Yes, she has contact with Ramirez, but that is rather unavoidable. Ramirez is the local warden after all, and Elaine can't be seen purposely avoiding Ramirez less she'll raise suspicion.

I'm reasonably confident that Elaine would greatly prefer not to have anything to do with the White Court, also. But Elaine has demonstrated repeatedly that she is far more practical than Harry, so I don't see this being an actual impediment given the state of things (if the Fomor weren't around, it would be a different story).

Another point is the fact that Elaine is hiding her wizard level talent is a big problem in itself, even if her ascociation with Harry and Justin was never discovered. The council let those below wizard level go relatively free, but anyone with wizard level talents is never allow to be non member of the council else there would have been several wizard organizations aside from the council by now.

Also, having wizard level talent is one thing, but having the skill and knowledge of a qualified wizard is another thing entirely. Maybe Elaine can hide that she studies magic under Justin, though I doubt even that is possible. But if the fact that she lied about her talent levels is discovered, finding out that she is also skilled and knowledgable won't be too far of a stretch, and then the question: "Who is her teacher?" will come up. Things will go downhill from there.

Elaine could hide her power level from Ramirez because she is older and more expirience, but hiding her power levels from senior wizards like EB or Langtry will be nai impossible. Heck, I doubt Elaine could fooled Luccio for that matter.

In a world where magic exist, hoping that your secrets will stay save by assuming all witnesses is dead is not feasible. There are spirits that lived in multiple dimensions of time, There are powers with intelectus that could know everything about you if they just think about it. Who knows what else is there?

I think the real issue here is "how much effort is anyone going to put toward digging up her secrets?" If Elaine's story is "I got chased/targeted by a nastybad thing, ran into Aurora, and she agreed to protect and teach me in exchange for getting her own pet wizard" and then tells (most of) the truth from Summer Knight onward, then it may technically be possible to disprove it...but I don't think anyone's going to expend that amount of effort when there are so many bigger and more urgent issues to deal with. Elaine has spent years proving herself to a trusted and respected member of the Council (Ramirez). In the presence of far higher priorities and the absence of overtly suspicious behavior, my contention is that the White Council is not going to waste too many resources digging into her story.

BTW: where exactly it is specified that the paranet is a practicianer only organization? Or where exactly it is specified that Murphy is an ally of the paranet instead of a member? I seem not to remember any of that.

I had been operating under the impression that it was specified at the end of White Night, when the Paranet was formed. It rather belatedly occurs to me, however, that since I haven't had access to this book in nearly a year, I may be misremembering. There is supporting evidence, however, in that every Paranet incident we've heard of outside of information-gathering (which they seem to do for their allies in return for other help, as well as for themselves) involves a minor practitioner.

And if the Paranet is specifically a group of magical practitioners, which I believe it is, then Murphy by definition not a member.

Actually, why do you think that Murphy is a member of the Paranet? Does she actually have any connection to them besides a single meeting, at which members of several other factions were present? If any vanilla mortal was going to be a member of the Paranet, I would think that it would be Butters rather than Murphy (and if I did not hate Butters with a fierce and burning passion, I'd say that he's probably a good candidate to lobby for the Paranet as a strong and valuable organization).

Murphy's future is difficult to predict because her injuries left her in limbo at the end of Skin Game.  Long-term, she has enough inside supernatural knowledge and information sources to act as some kind of coordinator or possibly even a spymaster.  She may be associated with the paranet, but I see any future role Murphy might play going forward as being wider and perhaps more freelance. 

More importantly, I don't feel I have a solid grasp on Murphy's character like I did before Changes.  In Ghost Story Murphy was pretty hard core.  Without hesitation she was ready to kill people she saw as a threat.  Granted, Murphy thought Harry had been murdered and she was a leader of a faction fighting a nasty street war against the Fomor, but she had gone from upholder of the law to hardcore vigilante in a matter of months.  All of that seemed to change in Cold Days.  What, Harry being alive suddenly takes Murphy from being Tank Girl psycho back to being regular Murphy again?  I don't want to get into her actions in Skin Game.  Too much ink has already been spilled over whether Murphy made a mistake anyone could have been suckered into vs her own arrogance and self-importance led her to fall for Nicodemus' trap.  The point is, I think Jim has some "splainin to do" in regards to where Murphy is psychologically.  I think her personal issues have to be worked through before I could see her as as a leader, ambassador (No she's not ambassador material.  Throw that idea out the window now.) or consultant for the paranet or anyone else.  I got the impression that Murphy went through an arc that brought her back to sanity prior to Harry's return in Cold Days.  If that's the case I really think Jim needs to tell us about that so we can better understand this character.

Yeah, Murphy is in a weird place as a character. I think that's probably why it's so easy to argue over her--she's reacting psychologically in ways that feel slightly off, and trying to interpret that results in wildly different understandings of her.

The problem I have with Elaine is much simpler.  She not just hiding her abilities and history from the Ramirez and White Council.  She's hiding things from Harry.  This was clearly hinted at in White Night.  I'm not saying Elaine has gone full "Red lightsaber" because I don't have enough information to make that call yet, but it's a possibility that she was responsible for Nemfecting Aurora and has been lying to Harry about Justin and how she was enthralled by him since Summer Knight.

Yeah, this is the real problem with Elaine. However, since I really love her character and the way she and Harry interact, I'm going to go back to being in denial until I have incontrovertible evidence of Elaine's betrayal.

Those suspicions aside, Elaine is clearly in a better position than Murphy to be considered a leader or one of the key leaders of the paranet.  However, she is not in any position to openly meet with or negotiate with higher ups in the White Council.  I seriously doubt she would want to even meet with Luccio.

I think that she could manage a couple of meetings, but I agree with you that it wouldn't work as a regular thing. That's why I've proposed Harry or Ramirez as a go-between.

The paranet itself is not a centralized organization.  There's no HQ.  There's no hierarchy or clearly defined chain of command.  It's more like an underground resistance movement or even a loosely affiliated terrorist organization.  There are cells within different cities.  Different people may be seen as a leader to a particular cell or within a particular city.  At one time Murphy may have even been thought of as one of those leaders.  It's not like someone in Houston, Texas is going to know that Murphy is a vanilla mortal.  Another more likely possibility that when Murphy sends information to a member of the paranet in Houston, the recipient doesn't know the exact identity of the sender, they would just know if the information came from a trusted source.  So how could anyone hold Murphy's vanilla mortal status against her if they don't know exactly who was helping them?  Should the paranet ever become more formalized and structured, then Murphy being seen as a full member might become problematic, but she could still be some type of consultant.  However, I don't see how the paranet ever reaches that level of organization except in a time of peace and safety, in which case would Murphy even want to be involved with it?  There's no reliable way to answer that question.

P.S.  Now that I think about it, there really is no such thing as "a full member of the paranet."  There's no sign up sheet with rules and stated group objectives.  There's no tests to take to prove one is worthy to join.  Finally, there's no organization to judge a person's merit to join it.

This is definitely what we see in the books. I tend to think of it as being more organized based on the WoJ about Elaine being the Paranet's CEO, since in my opinion an organization with a CEO-type leader has to have a fair amount of central organization--but I may be reading too much into it.

Take the guy who sends Butters information that he claims help track supernatural activity through statistics he gathered on the internet.  Just because he's aware of supernatural activity doesn't mean he has anymore magical ability than Murphy does.

Maybe, but it's explicitly noted that minor talents can use cell phones and other technology--wizards are just too strong.

I'd only add that whatever we discover about each of them, it will be something that will hit Harry like a ton of bricks, right where it hurts.

True. I'm just hoping that we find out Murphy is the traitor, and Elaine gets to stay a good guy.

PS: While writing this post, I've realized that my tone in earlier posts might have been slightly more confrontational than necessary. Sorry about that. I find that I'm much more willing to admit that opposing viewpoints might be right when I don't feel like one of my favorite characters is being attacked in favor of a character I dislike--but that's no reason to disregard the possibility that other people might have legitimate reasons/evidence for their claims.

[huangjimmy108]

I find this conversation about the Paranet and whether Murphy could be considered one of its leaders and the differences between Elaine and Murphy to be a very interesting one with good points made on both sides.  However, I have problems trying to figure out either Murphy or Elaine's path going forward. 

Murphy's future is difficult to predict because her injuries left her in limbo at the end of Skin Game.  Long-term, she has enough inside supernatural knowledge and information sources to act as some kind of coordinator or possibly even a spymaster.  She may be associated with the paranet, but I see any future role Murphy might play going forward as being wider and perhaps more freelance. 

More importantly, I don't feel I have a solid grasp on Murphy's character like I did before Changes.  In Ghost Story Murphy was pretty hard core.  Without hesitation she was ready to kill people she saw as a threat.  Granted, Murphy thought Harry had been murdered and she was a leader of a faction fighting a nasty street war against the Fomor, but she had gone from upholder of the law to hardcore vigilante in a matter of months.  All of that seemed to change in Cold Days.  What, Harry being alive suddenly takes Murphy from being Tank Girl psycho back to being regular Murphy again?  I don't want to get into her actions in Skin Game.  Too much ink has already been spilled over whether Murphy made a mistake anyone could have been suckered into vs her own arrogance and self-importance led her to fall for Nicodemus' trap.  The point is, I think Jim has some "splainin to do" in regards to where Murphy is psychologically.  I think her personal issues have to be worked through before I could see her as as a leader, ambassador (No she's not ambassador material.  Throw that idea out the window now.) or consultant for the paranet or anyone else.  I got the impression that Murphy went through an arc that brought her back to sanity prior to Harry's return in Cold Days.  If that's the case I really think Jim needs to tell us about that so we can better understand this character.

The problem I have with Elaine is much simpler.  She not just hiding her abilities and history from the Ramirez and White Council.  She's hiding things from Harry.  This was clearly hinted at in White Night.  I'm not saying Elaine has gone full "Red lightsaber" because I don't have enough information to make that call yet, but it's a possibility that she was responsible for Nemfecting Aurora and has been lying to Harry about Justin and how she was enthralled by him since Summer Knight.

Those suspicions aside, Elaine is clearly in a better position than Murphy to be considered a leader or one of the key leaders of the paranet.  However, she is not in any position to openly meet with or negotiate with higher ups in the White Council.  I seriously doubt she would want to even meet with Luccio.

The paranet itself is not a centralized organization.  There's no HQ.  There's no hierarchy or clearly defined chain of command.  It's more like an underground resistance movement or even a loosely affiliated terrorist organization.  There are cells within different cities.  Different people may be seen as a leader to a particular cell or within a particular city.  At one time Murphy may have even been thought of as one of those leaders.  It's not like someone in Houston, Texas is going to know that Murphy is a vanilla mortal.  Another more likely possibility that when Murphy sends information to a member of the paranet in Houston, the recipient doesn't know the exact identity of the sender, they would just know if the information came from a trusted source.  So how could anyone hold Murphy's vanilla mortal status against her if they don't know exactly who was helping them?  Should the paranet ever become more formalized and structured, then Murphy being seen as a full member might become problematic, but she could still be some type of consultant.  However, I don't see how the paranet ever reaches that level of organization except in a time of peace and safety, in which case would Murphy even want to be involved with it?  There's no reliable way to answer that question.

P.S.  Now that I think about it, there really is no such thing as "a full member of the paranet."  There's no sign up sheet with rules and stated group objectives.  There's no tests to take to prove one is worthy to join.  Finally, there's no organization to judge a person's merit to join it.  Take the guy who sends Butters information that he claims help track supernatural activity through statistics he gathered on the internet.  Just because he's aware of supernatural activity doesn't mean he has anymore magical ability than Murphy does.  Some people may participate in the paranet as a matter of survival while others just want to help because they see it as the right thing to do.   

 

In my opinion, Murphy's character and it's changes from 12 up to book 15 are quite explainable.

After Harry's presume'd death in book 12, Murphy got hit hard. More importantly, in her opinion Harry is not dead because his body is not found. At that point Murphy is like a family of a soldier missing in action. Harry is missing, presumed dead but there is no body. There is no closure. She is hoping Harry is still alive, afraid he is truely dead and in denial. Unlik.All that plus all other external factors must have strain her badly. This would explain her hard line methods when Harry first appear in book 13. Murphy's condition is different from Molly. Molly knows what exactly happened to Harry. She knows Harry is dead because she help arrange it. Molly suffers from guilt. Murphy however, suffers from regret and uncertainty.

By the end of book 13, Murphy must have healled somewhat. By facing Harry's ghost and gaining the confirmation that Harry is truely dead, Murphy has gotten her closure. She is devastated, but she can now continue with her life. The end of GS, where Mortimer shielded Murphy while she is crying is the sign of her emotional recovery.

Just after Murphy accepted Harry's death and start to go on with her life, Harry returns from the dead. Molly has warning from Lea, Murphy get the full surprise package. From this alone, her innitial rather cold reception to Harry's return is understandable. It is hard enough for her to shift from believing Harry is still alive when Harry first died in book 12 into accepting that Harry is truely dead after she meet Harry's ghost in book 13. Now in book 14, she has to shift back from accepting Harry is dead to Harry is still alive again. It is a major emotional upheaval for her.

A shock though it was, it is after all a good news in the end. Once the shock is over, the fact that Harry is indeed not dead must be a major boon for Murphy emotionally which would explain why she gotten a lot better once book 15comes around.

In terms of character, all seems to be in order.

[nadia.skylark]

In my opinion, Murphy's character and it's changes from 12 up to book 15 are quite explainable.

After Harry's presume'd death in book 12, Murphy got hit hard. More importantly, in her opinion Harry is not dead because his body is not found. At that point Murphy is like a family of a soldier missing in action. Harry is missing, presumed dead but there is no body. There is no closure. She is hoping Harry is still alive, afraid he is truely dead and in denial. Unlik.All that plus all other external factors must have strain her badly. This would explain her hard line methods when Harry first appear in book 13. Murphy's condition is different from Molly. Molly knows what exactly happened to Harry. She knows Harry is dead because she help arrange it. Molly suffers from guilt. Murphy however, suffers from regret and uncertainty.

By the end of book 13, Murphy must have healled somewhat. By facing Harry's ghost and gaining the confirmation that Harry is truely dead, Murphy has gotten her closure. She is devastated, but she can now continue with her life. The end of GS, where Mortimer shielded Murphy while she is crying is the sign of her emotional recovery.

Just after Murphy accepted Harry's death and start to go on with her life, Harry returns from the dead. Molly has warning from Lea, Murphy get the full surprise package. From this alone, her innitial rather cold reception to Harry's return is understandable. It is hard enough for her to shift from believing Harry is still alive when Harry first died in book 12 into accepting that Harry is truely dead after she meet Harry's ghost in book 13. Now in book 14, she has to shift back from accepting Harry is dead to Harry is still alive again. It is a major emotional upheaval for her.

A shock though it was, it is after all a good news in the end. Once the shock is over, the fact that Harry is indeed not dead must be a major boon for Murphy emotionally which would explain why she gotten a lot better once book 15comes around.

In terms of character, all seems to be in order.

I don't have an issue with her character transition from books 13 to 15, but I think there are major problems with her character transition from books 13 to 14. In book 13, she comes off as like the worst of her Fool Moon self, only without the law to rein her in. She also spends the whole book in denial about Harry's death, to the point where her entire character arc in that book is accepting that Harry's really dead. And then, in book 14 she goes from that to "oh, of course explosions mean Harry" (even though he's dead, and she spent the entire last book learning to accept that, and we have no reason to believe she has any information to the contrary) and being perfectly reasonable and accepting about everything (except for the scene where she blatantly and viciously emotionally manipulates Harry, but I accept that Jim didn't mean it to come off that way) and being fine with Harry explicitly keeping secrets? And all of this, without us ever seeing the transition stage? No, just no. The transition from books 12-13 worked. The transition from books 14-15 worked. The transition from books 13-15 worked. The transition from books 13-14...either we missed 1-3 books worth of character development from Murphy, or she's been gotten to badly.

[Mira]

I don't have an issue with her character transition from books 13 to 15, but I think there are major problems with her character transition from books 13 to 14. In book 13, she comes off as like the worst of her Fool Moon self, only without the law to rein her in. She also spends the whole book in denial about Harry's death, to the point where her entire character arc in that book is accepting that Harry's really dead. And then, in book 14 she goes from that to "oh, of course explosions mean Harry" (even though he's dead, and she spent the entire last book learning to accept that, and we have no reason to believe she has any information to the contrary) and being perfectly reasonable and accepting about everything (except for the scene where she blatantly and viciously emotionally manipulates Harry, but I accept that Jim didn't mean it to come off that way) and being fine with Harry explicitly keeping secrets? And all of this, without us ever seeing the transition stage? No, just no. The transition from books 12-13 worked. The transition from books 14-15 worked. The transition from books 13-15 worked. The transition from books 13-14...either we missed 1-3 books worth of character development from Murphy, or she's been gotten to badly.

Truth is, until we see how it goes in Peace Talks we haven't a clue.  Murphy has taken two severe blows, one to her body and another to her mind at the hands of Nic..  Both are recoverable..  Her body most likely will recover pretty well, she is healthy and in good condition..  True, she may never be 100%, but she can learn to deal with that..  Her mind and confidence might be another matter or rather a more difficult matter to calculate..  She was very confident of herself and how she felt about things going into her fight with Nic, first he goaded her into breaking a Holy Sword, then he proceeded to take her apart physically all the while whispering in her ear all kinds of things.. Now I know it turned out okay in the end..  She loves Harry and vice versa last we saw, and the Holy Sword got remade again and a new Knight named..  However the last time we saw Murphy she still was in her hospital bed and on pain meds....  She has rolled with a lot of bunches it is true, but has she taken one too many?  Don't think we will know until she is up and around again..  So Murphy going forward?  Anyone's guess.

[morriswalters]

Jim needs to resolve exactly what he wants of Murphy.  She seems to be a punching bag.  Need some cheap sympathy, beat up Murphy.  What I expect is that they will have sex and that Murphy will rather quickly get whacked.  I'd love to be pleasantly surprised, but I'm not hopeful.

[g33k]

BTW: where exactly it is specified that the paranet is a practicianer only organization? Or where exactly it is specified that Murphy is an ally of the paranet instead of a member? I seem not to remember any of that.

"The Paranet" is pretty loosely-defined.  Furthermore, it's an ad-hoc association of very-very-many disparate groups.  Every group was originally invited because it was a Talent-centric and/or magic-facing group, and each group defines its own membership.

In later stories, we see that the Paranet has grown beyond the original vision.  It's not clear, for example, that Marcone's organization (at least the Accorded part(s) of it)  IS "part of" the Paranet... but it's not clear that they are NOT, either.

But with such a disparate membership I can only expect (at least some) individuals without any magic; by the same token, I can imagine a member of the White Council who decides to work with a group of lower-level talents... and thus the WC Wizard becomes a member of the Paranet!

Rather than people being "allies of the Paranet" I would expect a group that joins to consist of Talents-and-their-allies.  Those "allies" are defined by the group as part of the group, and thus they are part of the Paranet.

At least, mostly.  Given the loose definitions, I don't expect ANY hard-and-fast universal rules apply...  But "almost entirely" magical members seems fair, to me.

Elaine, as one of the founders of the Paranet, and NOT a WC wizard, is clearly eligible to be the boss, but might "delegate" most of the interface-with-the-WC duties to someone else, so as to avoid most of the contact with more-powerful wizards.  She may be able to bat her eyes and get Ramirez to blink; she might even be able to get Arthur Langtry to presume she's weak, because he DOES tend toward arrogant assumptions.  But I cannot see her pulling the wool over Eb's eyes.  Eb, for example, will have heard a LOT about her in the process of reclaiming Harry and setting his feet on the right path...

Murphy, known to the Chicago coven, may well be "part" of their group, for purposes of joining the Paranet.  And as a clued-in Mundane, with contacts on both the Straight and Spooky sides of the street, may be an ideal person to act as the de facto "VP of Operations" under the auspices of "CEO Elaine".

Last but not least... I expect there's Other Shit lurking in unexamined parts of the Paranet.  White Council wizards?  As noted above, yup.  Sponsored magicians?  Oh, yeah... with Faerie and Old God sponsors... sponsors from Hell (likely not Denarians, but who knows?) and maybe even Outsider sponsors (n.b. "sponsored magic" is kind of a DF RPG term, but it reflects ideas from the book -- someone with no/little/lesser talent who gets their magic (or their more potent magic) from a non-human "sponsor").

[nadia.skylark]

"The Paranet" is pretty loosely-defined.  Furthermore, it's an ad-hoc association of very-very-many disparate groups.  Every group was originally invited because it was a Talent-centric and/or magic-facing group, and each group defines its own membership.

This.

It's not clear, for example, that Marcone's organization (at least the Accorded part(s) of it)  IS "part of" the Paranet... but it's not clear that they are NOT, either.

I'd thought that they were shown as separate-but-allied pretty clearly, if only because I don't see Marcone being part of such an organization and not running it, and it's pretty clear that Marcone isn't running the Paranet.

But with such a disparate membership I can only expect (at least some) individuals without any magic; by the same token, I can imagine a member of the White Council who decides to work with a group of lower-level talents... and thus the WC Wizard becomes a member of the Paranet!

Rather than people being "allies of the Paranet" I would expect a group that joins to consist of Talents-and-their-allies.  Those "allies" are defined by the group as part of the group, and thus they are part of the Paranet.

At least, mostly.  Given the loose definitions, I don't expect ANY hard-and-fast universal rules apply...  But "almost entirely" magical members seems fair, to me.

This makes sense. I'd probably divide allies vs ad-hoc members by saying that anyone part of their own distinct and separate group, with the exception of the White Council (exception made because Harry was one of the founders, and founded it partially to get rid of the "us-vs-them" mentality that minor practitioners had regarding the White Council) is an ally, whereas anyone without strong ties to a distinct group could be absorbed.

Eb, for example, will have heard a LOT about her in the process of reclaiming Harry and setting his feet on the right path...

I'm not convinced of that. One of the first things we hear about Elaine, even before we meet her, is Harry saying, "I don't talk about Elaine." And certainly, neither Elaine nor Harry act as if having her name heard by the wrong people in the White Council would blow her cover.

Actually, I'm not convinced that Harry talked to McCoy much about what happened at all, because I'm not convinced that McCoy ever thought that Harry was innocent. That is, I don't know if he ever really bought the self-defense thing. I think it's more likely that McCoy thought that Harry was in the same position as Molly was, in that he screwed up but was redeemable, and stepped in because Harry was his grandson. He probably wouldn't have said this to Harry, but probably would have given enough of a subconscious impression of distrust to discourage Harry (who already doesn't share things and dislikes talking about his emotions) from talking about it too much. This would also explain his initial hostility to McCoy when they meet in Summer Knight.

Murphy, known to the Chicago coven, may well be "part" of their group, for purposes of joining the Paranet.  And as a clued-in Mundane, with contacts on both the Straight and Spooky sides of the street, may be an ideal person to act as the de facto "VP of Operations" under the auspices of "CEO Elaine".

This I can see. Murphy would make an awful ambassador/negotiator, but "VP of Operations" would be perfect for her.