Author Topic: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why  (Read 41141 times)

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« Reply #90 on: May 31, 2019, 11:22:12 PM »
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Harry also could have just asked to borrow Bob instead of kidnap him..  It might even have helped to have brought Butters along, if that was allowed.

Harry specifically told Andi that he was stealing Bob rather than asking to borrow him in an attempt to keep Butters safe.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« Reply #91 on: May 31, 2019, 11:32:05 PM »
Only wizards can soul gaze. 





Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« Reply #92 on: June 01, 2019, 12:11:00 AM »
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Only wizards can soul gaze.

But a soulgaze goes two ways, and you only need one person to be a wizard. Anyone with a soul can soulgaze Harry (providing, obviously, that he doesn't close his eyes or something) because Harry is a wizard. This is how Susan, Michael, Marcone, that werewolf FBI guy, Ursiel (well, technically his host, I think), Thomas, Helen Beckitt, and that woman lawyer who Madeline had enthralled were all able to soulgaze Harry, even though none of them were wizards. This is also how Thomas soulgazed Molly and Butters soulgazed Grevane.

Offline Mira

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Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« Reply #93 on: June 01, 2019, 04:55:52 AM »
Harry specifically told Andi that he was stealing Bob rather than asking to borrow him in an attempt to keep Butters safe.

  As they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions...  Harry has good intentions when he tries to keep his friends safe because he knowsstuff they don't but almost always it backfires on him.

Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« Reply #94 on: June 01, 2019, 06:39:35 AM »
  As they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions...  Harry has good intentions when he tries to keep his friends safe because he knowsstuff they don't but almost always it backfires on him.

In my opinion, Harry stealing Bob in book 14 and claiming that it is for the protection of Andy is purely just an excuse. Harry himself don't buy that excuse inside because under Bob's intense scrutiny and questioning when they are talking in the car, Harry totally can't defend himself. Harry don't have a clear concience, how do you expect others to trust him?
But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil, damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness . . .
    . . . which could obviously be redeemed only by passing through the fiery, cleansing inferno of a wizardly digestive tract.

Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« Reply #95 on: June 01, 2019, 07:00:59 AM »
Murphy didn't just violate the tenets of good policing; she feloniously violated the Constitution.

Here is Murphy's evidence that Dresden was involved in the murders:
1. He knew a member of a tight knit community he was a prominent, maybe the most prominent, member of.
2. The victim was angry with him, maybe about the circle.
3. The circle was in the home.
4. Harry said to hold off on an APB until Murphy was ready to go to war with Tera.
5. There was a photo of Tera in the home.

Reason number one is the reason she hires him in the first place.
Reason number three is that there was an occult symbol associated with one of the murders and Harry, an expert in the occult. That's like a Christian symbol being associated with a theologian and a murder in a monastery.
Reason number four was just a warning to act with caution.

Murphy has reason to be suspicious of Dresden and even to take him in for questioning. Maybe enough to charge him with something. As long as he doesn't get a bad lawyer, she doesn't have nearly enough to convict him. Since she doesn't have enough to convict him, she should let him talk. That's how she gets more evidence; even if he just lies to her. A bunch of lies that can be proven false would help in a prosecution.

Twice in this book, Murphy gets enough evidence to satisfy her that someone, who isn't guilty, is guilty of a crime, so the investigation should stop. While police actually do this all the time, it's terrible police work.

As Mira points out, Murphy does this because she is guilty of the sin of pride. She substitutes her judgment for standard police practices and the Constitution. (In Skin Game she substitutes her judgment for that of the WG, which is the first sin recorded in the Bible).

And this is why I believe Murphy is in S.I. to begin with. I don't think she made enemies just by being a woman competent in a "man's" field. I think she made enemies by indulging in her pride and anger. Murphy probably felt entitled to a promotion and reacted with anger when she didn't get it. Then the opening in S.I. happened, so her superiors gave her the promotion. And much like Butters' behavior in Skin Game, I think this should be better explained in the text, or it doesn't really make sense without a lot of back filling of motivation/character by the audience.

I think we can come up with explanations for why both of them are behaving the way they are, but I think we have to stretch the texts to do it. I think that is bad writing (unless it was done on purpose with an explanation meant to come later).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what Morris is saying is that it makes thematic sense for Butters to behave this way. I agree with that. Where I disagree is that it doesn't make sense for his character to be behaving this way at this point in the series without more.

Butters has access to more information than any other character, except maybe Michael, to trust that Harry didn't come back wrong because Bob was the one who first figured out what happened to Harry in Ghost Story. I.e. that Harry wasn't even dead, and that Uriel, Archangel of the Lord, is behind it. That should be enough to convince Butters that Harry didn't come back "wrong."

I doubt anyone knows that Uriel is involve in book 13. Harry told Thomas that Ghost him was there, but he never mention Uriel. Up until now, what happened to Harry when he is playing casper is mostly private. Not even his closest and most trusted friends and love ones has clear details about that part of Harry's journey. Harry don't talk to Karrin about her father for example.

As for Murphy in FM. Of course Murphy intend to talk to Harry about it. She is going to listen to him. She is just going to do it in the police station, not in Mcfinn's home. the current evidence, though not enough to convict Harry, is enough to make him a suspect. A suspect is supposed to be arrested. 

She is a police woman, not a court judge. She can arrest him, but she can't convict him in the firstplace. Since all the circumstancial evidence show that Harry is involve, apprehending Harry is a logical decision. She can listen to Harry's explanation after she arrest him and if Harry is truly innocent the law will sort things out. There is nothing wrong about that. Arresting Harry is completely all right in my opinion, punching Harry and chipping his tooth however is probably a bit accessive. So Murphy has a bad temper, well, nobody's perfect.

The fact that Murphy's police duties conflict with Harry's circumstances at the time is a rather regrettable situation. It can't be help.
But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil, damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness . . .
    . . . which could obviously be redeemed only by passing through the fiery, cleansing inferno of a wizardly digestive tract.

Offline Mira

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Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« Reply #96 on: June 01, 2019, 11:19:09 AM »
In my opinion, Harry stealing Bob in book 14 and claiming that it is for the protection of Andy is purely just an excuse. Harry himself don't buy that excuse inside because under Bob's intense scrutiny and questioning when they are talking in the car, Harry totally can't defend himself. Harry don't have a clear concience, how do you expect others to trust him?

  But he did bring him back,  Harry could have left him in the tunnel on the island and what could any of the really do?  Bob might not like it, but he'd obey and do Harry's bidding because he had the skull back.   

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« Reply #97 on: June 01, 2019, 02:52:01 PM »
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In my opinion, Harry stealing Bob in book 14 and claiming that it is for the protection of Andy is purely just an excuse.

An excuse for what?

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I doubt anyone knows that Uriel is involve in book 13.

Bob knows--he and Harry talk about it during Ghost Story.

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As for Murphy in FM. Of course Murphy intend to talk to Harry about it. She is going to listen to him. She is just going to do it in the police station, not in Mcfinn's home. the current evidence, though not enough to convict Harry, is enough to make him a suspect. A suspect is supposed to be arrested. 

She is a police woman, not a court judge. She can arrest him, but she can't convict him in the firstplace. Since all the circumstancial evidence show that Harry is involve, apprehending Harry is a logical decision. She can listen to Harry's explanation after she arrest him and if Harry is truly innocent the law will sort things out. There is nothing wrong about that. Arresting Harry is completely all right in my opinion, punching Harry and chipping his tooth however is probably a bit accessive. So Murphy has a bad temper, well, nobody's perfect.

"A bit excessive"? It's a clear-cut case of police brutality! It would be bad enough if Murphy did that to someone she didn't know, and that she does it to someone we're supposed to believe she cares about says a lot about her as a person. A suspect is supposed to be arrested, yes, not assaulted when they aren't trying to fight back. And Murphy specifically punches Harry again when he tries to say something, and says "no more talking," so I do not believe she was going to listen to him when they got to the police station--more likely, given her behavior in this scene, she would have just punched him again when he tried to say that he was innocent.

Offline Mira

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Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« Reply #98 on: June 01, 2019, 03:46:21 PM »
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"A bit excessive"? It's a clear-cut case of police brutality! It would be bad enough if Murphy did that to someone she didn't know, and that she does it to someone we're supposed to believe she cares about says a lot about her as a person. A suspect is supposed to be arrested, yes, not assaulted when they aren't trying to fight back. And Murphy specifically punches Harry again when he tries to say something, and says "no more talking," so I do not believe she was going to listen to him when they got to the police station--more likely, given her behavior in this scene, she would have just punched him again when he tried to say that he was innocent.

The tragic part about it is a lot of good people died because she was closed minded about the Loop.

Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« Reply #99 on: June 02, 2019, 12:13:21 AM »
  But he did bring him back,  Harry could have left him in the tunnel on the island and what could any of the really do?  Bob might not like it, but he'd obey and do Harry's bidding because he had the skull back.

If you steal money while knowing that you did something rong . Even if you return the money afterwards to the last penny, it does not change the fact that you did a crime. It just show that you are remorseful. especially since you only return it after you are asked to do it or even pressured to do it. We may argue that Harry will return Bob voluntarily at the end, but since the text is as it is, we will never know.
But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil, damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness . . .
    . . . which could obviously be redeemed only by passing through the fiery, cleansing inferno of a wizardly digestive tract.

Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« Reply #100 on: June 02, 2019, 12:27:24 AM »
An excuse for what?

Bob knows--he and Harry talk about it during Ghost Story.

"A bit excessive"? It's a clear-cut case of police brutality! It would be bad enough if Murphy did that to someone she didn't know, and that she does it to someone we're supposed to believe she cares about says a lot about her as a person. A suspect is supposed to be arrested, yes, not assaulted when they aren't trying to fight back. And Murphy specifically punches Harry again when he tries to say something, and says "no more talking," so I do not believe she was going to listen to him when they got to the police station--more likely, given her behavior in this scene, she would have just punched him again when he tried to say that he was innocent.

An excuse to comfort his own conscience. A self denial of a sort.

As for Murphy, I think it precisely because she and Harry has a close partnership at the time which make Murphy so angry and punch him. You see, Murphy is going out on a limb by involving Harry in the investigations, due to those rumors spread at the end of SF. At the start of the investigation, Murphy has requested that Harry tell her everything and grant her full disclosure and Harry agreed. Though from Harry's PoV we as readers can see that Harry is not really trying to hide anything, from Murphy's PoV it sure look a lot like Harry is doing exactly that. In truth, Harry is indeed hiding a lot of things. Harry has not yet clued Murphy in on the supernatural like he did in book 4. Though Harry has a reason for it, it is undeniable that it is a violation of the full disclosure agreement she and Harry consented at the start of the investigations. In a way, it is a kind of betrayal on Harry's part. This is exactly what ID Harry is saying to Harry when he is unconscious.

Harry has his own reasons to do what he did. Murphy has her own reason to blew her top too. I am not saying that it is right for her to punch Harry. I am just saying that it is not out of character for her to do so. She is human after all. She can misunderstand and make a mistake like anyone else.

And of course she is going to listen to Harry. It is due process of the law after all. No matter how angry she was, FM Murphy will never use public power to avenge private wrongs. 
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 12:35:11 AM by huangjimmy108 »
But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil, damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness . . .
    . . . which could obviously be redeemed only by passing through the fiery, cleansing inferno of a wizardly digestive tract.

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« Reply #101 on: June 02, 2019, 06:50:39 AM »
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If you steal money while knowing that you did something rong . Even if you return the money afterwards to the last penny, it does not change the fact that you did a crime. It just show that you are remorseful. especially since you only return it after you are asked to do it or even pressured to do it. We may argue that Harry will return Bob voluntarily at the end, but since the text is as it is, we will never know.

I'm confused as to what you are saying here. Are you saying that it was wrong for Harry to steal Bob in the first place regardless of the fact that he returned him, or that returning him didn't count because Murphy pressured him into doing it, or that you don't think Harry returned Bob at all?

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An excuse to comfort his own conscience. A self denial of a sort.

...Then why did he do it? He specifically told Andi that she couldn't be seen to help him, even after she found out that he needed Bob and said that he could take him; however, when he ran into Molly and Thomas, he was just fine with both of them helping--to me, this shows that Harry was trying to protect his lower-powered friends by keeping them out of it; he was fine getting help from people who could protect themselves.

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As for Murphy, I think it precisely because she and Harry has a close partnership at the time which make Murphy so angry and punch him. You see, Murphy is going out on a limb by involving Harry in the investigations, due to those rumors spread at the end of SF. At the start of the investigation, Murphy has requested that Harry tell her everything and grant her full disclosure and Harry agreed. Though from Harry's PoV we as readers can see that Harry is not really trying to hide anything, from Murphy's PoV it sure look a lot like Harry is doing exactly that. In truth, Harry is indeed hiding a lot of things. Harry has not yet clued Murphy in on the supernatural like he did in book 4. Though Harry has a reason for it, it is undeniable that it is a violation of the full disclosure agreement she and Harry consented at the start of the investigations. In a way, it is a kind of betrayal on Harry's part. This is exactly what ID Harry is saying to Harry when he is unconscious.

When do we see this close partnership? Their relationship in Storm Front is basically Murphy not really trusting Harry but trying to get his help regardless, then we're told that Murphy hasn't talked to Harry between Storm Front and Fool Moon, then in Fool Moon their relationship starts as Murphy not really trusting Harry but trying to get his help regardless and degenerates from there.

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Harry has his own reasons to do what he did. Murphy has her own reason to blew her top too. I am not saying that it is right for her to punch Harry. I am just saying that it is not out of character for her to do so. She is human after all. She can misunderstand and make a mistake like anyone else.

And I'm saying that if that scene in Fool Moon is not out of character for Murphy, then Murphy is a character whom I do not like and do not think is a particularly decent person.

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And of course she is going to listen to Harry. It is due process of the law after all. No matter how angry she was, FM Murphy will never use public power to avenge private wrongs.

Assaulting suspects is not due process of the law, yet Murphy had no problem with that. I fail to see how, after a scene in which Murphy clearly disregards the law, and in which you say that she is not out of character, you can then turn around and claim that it is obvious Murphy would not do something outside the law and that always following the law is an intrinsic part of her character at that time.

Also, you did not respond to my reasons for not believing that Murphy would listen to Harry: namely, that when Harry tried to say something, she punched him in the face and said, "no more talking." That sends a pretty clear message.

Offline Mira

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Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« Reply #102 on: June 02, 2019, 11:13:23 AM »
If you steal money while knowing that you did something rong . Even if you return the money afterwards to the last penny, it does not change the fact that you did a crime. It just show that you are remorseful. especially since you only return it after you are asked to do it or even pressured to do it. We may argue that Harry will return Bob voluntarily at the end, but since the text is as it is, we will never know.

I cannot remember, did Harry actually give the skull to Harry?  Or did Murphy because she was executor of his will?  And even if she did, since Harry never died, isn't the skull technically still his?

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« Reply #103 on: June 02, 2019, 08:22:19 PM »
I doubt anyone knows that Uriel is involve in book 13.
Bob does. Butters has Bob and is concerned Harry came back wrong. Butters should know because he should have talked to Bob about it.

As for Murphy in FM. Of course Murphy intend to talk to Harry about it. She is going to listen to him. She is just going to do it in the police station, not in Mcfinn's home.
I don't believe that for a second. She's furious with him. He keeps trying to talk to her and she keeps stopping him. Then she reads him his rights. Interrogation is all about getting and keeping the witness/suspect talking. If you do that long enough, you will get all the evidence you need. At this point, she has serious legal restrictions preventing an effective interrogation from taking place. Before that, she had a talking suspect with little in the way of legal rights protecting him from questioning. Murphy had no intention of questioning or listening to Dresden at this point.

So Murphy has a bad temper, well, nobody's perfect.
She committed a federal felony when she started beating on him. It's a really, really big deal. Under the law, she should go to prison for several years, permanently lose several rights, and never be allowed in law enforcement again.

[Edit]
[1.]She is human after all. She can misunderstand and make a mistake like anyone else.

[2.]And of course she is going to listen to Harry. [3.]It is due process of the law after all. [4.]No matter how angry she was, FM Murphy will never use public power to avenge private wrongs.

1. I've never gotten so mad I committed a felony. I think you're underestimating the weight of what Murphy did here. 2. Already addressed. 3. No. Due process is many things, but it has nothing to do with being able to make your case to the arresting officer, lead investigator, or even prosecutor. 4. That's exactly what she is doing. The private wrong is a betrayal of trust, which didn't actually happen. The abuse of public power was the previously mentioned felony.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 08:34:46 PM by Bad Alias »

Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« Reply #104 on: June 03, 2019, 03:22:38 AM »
Bob does. Butters has Bob and is concerned Harry came back wrong. Butters should know because he should have talked to Bob about it.
I don't believe that for a second. She's furious with him. He keeps trying to talk to her and she keeps stopping him. Then she reads him his rights. Interrogation is all about getting and keeping the witness/suspect talking. If you do that long enough, you will get all the evidence you need. At this point, she has serious legal restrictions preventing an effective interrogation from taking place. Before that, she had a talking suspect with little in the way of legal rights protecting him from questioning. Murphy had no intention of questioning or listening to Dresden at this point.
She committed a federal felony when she started beating on him. It's a really, really big deal. Under the law, she should go to prison for several years, permanently lose several rights, and never be allowed in law enforcement again.

[Edit]
1. I've never gotten so mad I committed a felony. I think you're underestimating the weight of what Murphy did here. 2. Already addressed. 3. No. Due process is many things, but it has nothing to do with being able to make your case to the arresting officer, lead investigator, or even prosecutor. 4. That's exactly what she is doing. The private wrong is a betrayal of trust, which didn't actually happen. The abuse of public power was the previously mentioned felony.

First thing, it is exactly due process not to listen too much to a suspect words during the time of arrest. There is a better time to do that kind of thing. You have the right to remain silent is not a joke. A suspect is treated differently than a witness, and Murphy acted as such. If Murphy stay and listen, she could be accuse with colluding with a felon, especially since this a serial murder case which is very sensitive. Murphy herself already landed half way into hot water by allowing someone who is rumored to be working for Marcone into the investigations at the time when it is known that Mcfinn and Marcone has a conflict of interest.

As for police vilence, well, you know yourself that this kind of thing happened quite often. Furthermore, Murphy know more than most what Harry is capable of. It is actually not a bad idea to incapacitate Harry with a punch just in case. Harry is a powerful and dangerous man after all. It might not be legal or ethical, but it is practical to put the guy down to reduce the chance of complication. In the case of FM, Harry is innocent and he probably won't escape the police, but nobody knows that and Murphy can no longer depend on the trust between her and Harry.

Harry is a good guy, but in case he is the bad guy, he need to be treated seriously considering his power. It is the same reason why the white council is so wary of him. The same reason why Murphy is harsh on him in book 14. The same principle applies. It is the side effect of having great power which is probably why the council emphasize secrecy.
But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil, damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness . . .
    . . . which could obviously be redeemed only by passing through the fiery, cleansing inferno of a wizardly digestive tract.