Who really killed Margaret McCoy Dresden

[kbrizzle]

Why Maggie was killed 3-4 years after she left Lord Raith is one of the reasons why I created this WAG about it being Nicodemus instead.

As Mr. Death points out, entropy curses don’t seem to need a location, but a target. When Emma is killed by the curse in BR, there is no way LR could have known that she was getting an Evian in the basement at that precise moment. There is also no way Nic could have known exactly where Harry & Susan were (they were in a car) when his entropy curse strikes.

While Maggie could have protected herself against such curses within thresholds & with wards, there is no way that protection could have been 24/7 - as morriswalters points out, she went to the Lincoln Memorial a few days before Harry’s birth.

However, it is the timing of the death that is important here - she dies right after giving birth to Harry, & she had enough time to level her death curse, meaning that the entropy curse wasn’t all that sudden.

Anduriel could have very easily figured out where & when Maggie was vulnerable, conveying the info to Nic for his entropy curse. Another WAG here - perhaps Nic wanted to kill her before she gave birth & if he was using corporate to juice up his curse, perhaps Uriel was able to make the curse hit after the birth. This would explain why he didn’t try to recruit Harry as a kid.

[kbrizzle]

Devil's advocate again, I've heard a theory that part of the reason Nic was so willing to sacrifice her (without even trying a Squire first) was because he knew she was infected and it was the only way he knew to cure her. (In this theory, her love was too strong for Nemesis to corrupt, but it could have gotten to other things; and Nic is almost certainly planning a rescue mission now that she's free of Nemesis.)

I hadn’t heard that one - it’s very interesting & could add a layer to why Mab wanted Nic to sacrifice his own daughter other than just punishment.

[nadia.skylark]

Another WAG here - perhaps Nic wanted to kill her before she gave birth & if he was using corporate to juice up his curse, perhaps Uriel was able to make the curse hit after the birth.

Uriel might not have needed to interfere directly. The entropy curse basically has the effect of "make catastrophically bad things happen until the target dies" so I can see arranging for the "catastrophic thing" that kills her to be childbirth as well within TWG's coincidence-adjusting powers without need for anything special.

Still leaves the question of why Nic wanted to kill Harry before he was born, though, especially since when he does run into Harry he tries recruiting him.

(On a tangentially related note, have people noticed how much every Denarian except for Dierdre was working at cross purposes with regards to Harry in Death Masks? I mean, Nic wants to keep Harry uninvolved, or if not then to recruit him; Cassius deliberately involves him as a pawn; and Ursiel just tries to kill him apropos of nothing. It really demonstrates how spectacularly bad Denarians are at working together.)

[kbrizzle]

I'm of the opinion that none of the Fallen are Nemfected.  I don't even know if they could be.  I just think that there are two sides in this fight, and some of them have picked the side of the Old Ones, and Outsiders.  Remember Harry was promised by He Who Walks Before that if he joined them that he, and his loved ones would be protected from harm.

My belief is that the Black Council includes some of the Fallen and the idea is that they will be rulers along side the Old Ones in the new world order.

The only nemfected people I can be sure were infected have been Sidhe.  The FBI agents were corrupted but from the Wolf Belts which were just channeling dark magic much the same as a wizard going bad for doing the same thing.  Who besides the Sidhe can we say for certain have been effected by Nemesis?

I had actually made a thread about a WAG I had about this topic a while back. My theory is that Nemesis is most effective on immortals since the greatest benefit it seems to confer in its inhabitants is the ability to deviate from their base nature (which cannot do since they don’t have free will). This would not be a major advantage to mortals who already have free will.

Regarding your second point about who all have been Nfected outside the Sidhe - good question. Here is my list of suspects:

• Ferrovax - a conjecture based on what the athame did to Lea
• Vittorio Malvora - how was he able to throw an enhanced, overpowered despair “spell” without being Nfected? And he was working with/ for Cowl who is known to be passing out Nfected items (athame)
• One of the Ortega’s in the RCV - likely Ariana
• Fomor - likely someone who is #2 or 3 in command but wants to move up

[morriswalters]

Why Maggie was killed 3-4 years after she left Lord Raith is one of the reasons why I created this WAG about it being Nicodemus instead.

As Mr. Death points out, entropy curses don’t seem to need a location, but a target. When Emma is killed by the curse in BR, there is no way LR could have known that she was getting an Evian in the basement at that precise moment. There is also no way Nic could have known exactly where Harry & Susan were (they were in a car) when his entropy curse strikes.

Let me clear some brush away.   Either the curse has to follow a link, blood or something on that line, or the caster needs to know where and when. Andurial could have known exactly where Harry and Susan were, assuming they cast shadows. That is established in Skin Game. I'm assuming in the case of Maggie's death that the link was Thomas.  Here is my support for that position.

“Because…” I frowned. “Uh…” I looked up at Charity for a moment. Actually, there was a magical connection between parents and children. A strong one. My mother had worked a spell linked to Thomas and me that would confirm to us that we were brothers. The connection had been established, even though she had been the only common parent between us. The blood connection was the deepest known to magic. “It might work,” I said quietly. I thought about it some more and breathed, “Stars and stones, not just work. Actually, for this spell, it might work better.”

I'm also assuming that the link was how she cursed Raith.  We have also established canon that the Sidhe are able to shield people from tracking spells.  As demonstrated in Turn Coat, Summer hides Morgan in just that fashion.

[Mr. Death]

Another thing to remember -- if Lord Raith was using the HWWB Entropy Curse, he had to do it at specific times.

Maggie doesn't have to protect herself 24/7. She just has to protect herself at about quarter to midnight, or quarter to noon.

And that's assuming that Lord Raith would be casting it every day -- it does not appear to be a persistent, "Hang around until the target dies" curse. It goes off once, causes a singular event that attacks the target, who then lives or dies.

I think it's safe to assume that Lord Raith wasn't casting it every twelve hours. He has other things to do, after all.

[Avernite]

I had actually made a thread about a WAG I had about this topic a while back. My theory is that Nemesis is most effective on immortals since the greatest benefit it seems to confer in its inhabitants is the ability to deviate from their base nature (which cannot do since they don’t have free will). This would not be a major advantage to mortals who already have free will.

Regarding your second point about who all have been Nfected outside the Sidhe - good question. Here is my list of suspects:

• Ferrovax - a conjecture based on what the athame did to Lea
• Vittorio Malvora - how was he able to throw an enhanced, overpowered despair “spell” without being Nfected? And he was working with/ for Cowl who is known to be passing out Nfected items (athame)
• One of the Ortega’s in the RCV - likely Ariana
• Fomor - likely someone who is #2 or 3 in command but wants to move up

I personally believe Nemesis is very much overused; why explain by Nemfection what can be explained otherwise, like by free-willed alignment with the Outsiders?

Ferrovax seems a few steps in power above the known targets - it is not a given he even CAN be Nemfected, but if he can, sure, he'd be a great target.
Malvora was a free-willed individual; he can have been empowered by Cowl without being directly Nemfected - he had perfectly fine reasons to try most of what he did, and carrying the empowerment around may have slowly driven him mad with power to explain the minor discrepancies.
The Ortega's were profiting tremendously from their alliance with Outsiders; the prime reason the Council was getting occasional very painful losses. Alliance, not Nemfection, seems a perfect explanation.
The Fomor #2/3 would have the same incentives as the Ortega's, so eh, why not simply ally?

[kbrizzle]

Uriel might not have needed to interfere directly. The entropy curse basically has the effect of "make catastrophically bad things happen until the target dies" so I can see arranging for the "catastrophic thing" that kills her to be childbirth as well within TWG's coincidence-adjusting powers without need for anything special.

Still leaves the question of why Nic wanted to kill Harry before he was born, though, especially since when he does run into Harry he tries recruiting him.

(On a tangentially related note, have people noticed how much every Denarian except for Dierdre was working at cross purposes with regards to Harry in Death Masks? I mean, Nic wants to keep Harry uninvolved, or if not then to recruit him; Cassius deliberately involves him as a pawn; and Ursiel just tries to kill him apropos of nothing. It really demonstrates how spectacularly bad Denarians are at working together.)

Hmm there are a few reasons I can think of for Nic to kill Maggie. Perhaps  he wanted to kill her so that Harry’s most powerful parent (& source of protection) would be gone & since everyone suspects Raith, he could get away with it. He then circles back to kill Malcolm a few years later to allay the suspicions of Lea & Eb + his allies/ friends who are keeping an eye on Maggie’s kid. However he is unable to get Harry due to an intervention by team UMO, who whisk him away to a mundane orphanage - the last place Nic would think to look for such an important asset to be stashed. It’s even possible that Eb left little Harry at the orphanage, just like how Harry asks for Maggie Jr. to be taken to Father Forthill.
However Simon (Cowl) who is one of Eb’s friends/ allies & included in this plan, lets his former apprentice Justin know that 2 Starborn kids have been stashed in mundane orphanages around the country & that he should go & pick them up.

Or perhaps he, like Lord Raith wanted revenge for something she might have done in the past (like trying to leave the Starborn conspiracy, or something else) & he got her when she was most vulnerable- at childbirth.

Or perhaps he didn’t want a Starborn around before as it would be detrimental to his apocalyptic plans but now that there is one, & Nemesis seems to be in the middle of another sortie, he decides to use the tools he’s got.

Regarding your final point about Deidre not being cross purposes with Harry in DM - she basically does what Nic wants since she seems to love & respect him the most, so I would regard her as Nic’s lackey in that book.

[kbrizzle]

Another thing to remember -- if Lord Raith was using the HWWB Entropy Curse, he had to do it at specific times.

Maggie doesn't have to protect herself 24/7. She just has to protect herself at about quarter to midnight, or quarter to noon.

And that's assuming that Lord Raith would be casting it every day -- it does not appear to be a persistent, "Hang around until the target dies" curse. It goes off once, causes a singular event that attacks the target, who then lives or dies.

I think it's safe to assume that Lord Raith wasn't casting it every twelve hours. He has other things to do, after all.

Agreed, & maybe she was so focused on protecting herself from Lord Raith, that Nic was able to sneak up on her?

Just to be contrary - Raith Sr. is supposed to have quite the magical library & is known for his use of entropy curses. I wouldn't be surprised if he had rituals that called out to other entities than just HWWB, so the time of the day issue may be a non-issue.

@Avernite
Agreed, it is overplayed. I was only listing suspects since we don’t have any textual evidence so far of non-Fae being Nfected. I also believe that Nemesis can only infect a certain number of people at any given time - 3/5/7 (there have to be some limits to its power).

@morriswalters
The spell being referenced is not an entropy curse - it’s a long term spell, so it has to be rooted in something that will last a while (like a WCV or wizard). The only entropy curse we see being performed is the one with Thomas as the target at the end of BR & his location is not mentioned, at least in the English-speaking parts of the ritual.

[morriswalters]

At the confrontation in the Raith Deeps, Thomas is the sacrifice, Harry is the target.

[kbrizzle]

@morriswalters
My mistake - you’re right about Harry being target & Thomas being the fuel

[Mr. Death]

Did Lord Raith's HWWB entropy curse always need a human sacrifice?

If so, that's another reason he took so long to get Maggie -- even he probably can't get away with sacrificing a person a day for that. Eventually someone would notice, and the logical conclusion would be that the White King has lost control of his feeding and is now weak; and if they actually did know why, they'd find out that A. he's obsessed with revenge and B. he's been totally ineffective at it.

Ergo, if the spell needs a human sacrifice, I think that makes it more likely he held it in reserve until he was sure he had a good shot at her.

[kbrizzle]

@Mr. Death
I started this thread with the thought that it could be Nic who kills Maggie with his entropy curse, but just to play devil’s advocate, you’re assuming that Lord Raith had just the one entropy curse up his sleeve. Also as the King of a nation of vampires, I’m sure through his Court he could get as many mortals to sacrifice as he needs. I mean people like Madeline seem to drain a person every day or couple of days. Can you imagine what the entire WCV goes through daily?

[Mr. Death]

@Mr. Death
I started this thread with the thought that it could be Nic who kills Maggie with his entropy curse, but just to play devil’s advocate, you’re assuming that Lord Raith had just the one entropy curse up his sleeve. Also as the King of a nation of vampires, I’m sure through his Court he could get as many mortals to sacrifice as he needs. I mean people like Madeline seem to drain a person every day or couple of days. Can you imagine what the entire WCV goes through daily?

I think it's the main one we've seen and it's a very powerful curse, the kind of thing that he'd need/want to get to a powerful wizard. Plus, the HWWB connection is too good to pass up.

Madeline is noted as being something of an out-of-control loose cannon. Others, like Lord Raith and Lara, tend to drag it out for weeks or even months, based on their dialog, and they disapprove of how Madeline treats her prey based on White Night.

But for the White King to go through a person a day, that'd be up there with the Red King's near-junky tendencies. It'd be a sign of weakness.

And if he sacrifices that person a day to try and kill another person -- and keeps failing to do so -- that's yet more weakness.

And while I'll agree that Nic could have killed Maggie, I just don't see him wanting to, or a good motive for it.

[nadia.skylark]

And while I'll agree that Nic could have killed Maggie, I just don't see him wanting to, or a good motive for it.

This is my issue as well. I can think of many reasons for Nic to be potentially upset at Margaret, or to want to influence Harry, but none of them would make killing Margaret Nic's best plan.