Who really killed Margaret McCoy Dresden

[morriswalters]

Why wouldn't he? The ability to fight and/or control Outsiders is a pretty big deal.

In every case we have seen to the present, he is interested in some goal unrelated to any battle with the outsiders. Generally involving Holy artifacts.  His move is to put a coin on someone, which he has already tried with Harry.  He did it with Deidre.

Look for the person or persons who shielded Maggie so she could have Harry.  My  WAG is that the protection expired at the live birth of Harry.  Maybe Lea did that, probably not Mab.  Maggie knew she was the walking dead, don't ya think?  She was making ready when she left, she evidently had Thomas prepped.  She bargained with the Sidhe, she gave her map to Lea to hold for Harry, she left messages for both boys.  This is a Winter story line.  Or am I just breathing moon dust?

[nadia.skylark]

This makes little sense to me. Raising Harry from childhood would have been the perfect way to indoctrinate him. Waiting until he's an adult having been raised by other people only makes Nic's supposed goal here harder to obtain.

I mean, consider who is Nic's most trusted and loyal follower -- his actual daughter, who he clearly did raise and allowed to keep her tongue.

Just to play devil's advocate here, he could have needed Harry to develop the obstreperousness that he now has--Nic has said that it is why he can trust that Harry has not been corrupted by the "Black Council."

If you remember what Nic tells Harry about why he didn’t help Cassius after the events of DM - it’s because he didn’t want to “help” Cassius, since that would make Snakeboy a parasite who needs Nic’s largesse to thrive & that would be unfair to Cassius - a truly sociopathic line of reasoning. This is towards someone he has known for at least a few centuries.

I'd always assumed that he was lying. I mean, the situation was that Nic was trying to convince Harry to work with him, and Harry said that Cassius was one reason why he wouldn't. I just thought that Nic just came up with a plausible-sounding reason for Harry rather than say that it was because Cassius betrayed him (Nic knows that Harry would be inclined to work against him at first, and wouldn't want to discourage Harry working for him at least part-time because of it).

I think you're underselling Nic's trust in Deirdre; it seems to me more on the 'trust, but verify' level that he distrusts her, simply because he's asking the ultimate question and so has been unable to really test the waters properly (and as the only sensible bad guy, he rather doesn't pit himself against survival instincts if he can help it but instead prepares to deflect such snags to his plans).

Definitely.

Dunno, there’s no guarantee that raising Harry will make him turn out to be like Deidre - if that were the case, Harry wouldn’t have rebelled as seriously against Justin (Elaine didn’t). Or that Harry would be more drawn the magically talented Tessa (opp of Deedee).

Justin also didn't raise Harry from the moment he was born. And I have no trouble believing that Nic would find it easy to keep Harry away from Tessa, especially since he had his own magic-user in Cassius.

Because if he treated Harry like a son, he could more easily mold and manipulate him.

This.

In every case we have seen to the present, he is interested in some goal unrelated to any battle with the outsiders.

Actually, a good chunk of his interactions with Harry in Small Favor imply that he's working against Outsiders/Nemesis.

[Mr. Death]

In every case we have seen to the present, he is interested in some goal unrelated to any battle with the outsiders. Generally involving Holy artifacts.  His move is to put a coin on someone, which he has already tried with Harry.  He did it with Deidre.

Because, of course, the things we see from Nicodemus are the entirety of his plans, right?

Also, remind me what artifact we've seen that has been the most effective in battle against Outsiders, so effective that the guy wielding it didn't even realize they were supposed to be difficult to fight?

Amoracchius. A holy artifact.

And what did Mab send Harry to get, as weapons to prepare for war with the Outsiders?

A bunch of holy artifacts.

Look for the person or persons who shielded Maggie so she could have Harry.

This sentence in itself is WAG -- we don't know that anybody "shielded" Maggie. By all appearances and the text of the book, Maggie just ran away from everyone and was away from all her prior connections when she conceived and had Harry.

The whole idea that Harry was the result of this massive conspiracy is WAG more than it is text.

Certainly there are hints that Harry's birth was special, and that now people are very interested in Harry, but the idea that half the supernatural world played midwife to it runs contrary to nearly everything we've learned about that part of Maggie Sr.'s life.

Just to play devil's advocate here, he could have needed Harry to develop the obstreperousness that he now has--Nic has said that it is why he can trust that Harry has not been corrupted by the "Black Council."

He also apparently trusted that Deirdre wasn't corrupted.

[morriswalters]

Because, of course, the things we see from Nicodemus are the entirety of his plans, right?

Also, remind me what artifact we've seen that has been the most effective in battle against Outsiders, so effective that the guy wielding it didn't even realize they were supposed to be difficult to fight?

Amoracchius. A holy artifact.

And what did Mab send Harry to get, as weapons to prepare for war with the Outsiders?

A bunch of holy artifacts.

And what was Nic after?  I don't know what his plan is, I just know what he does, and it hasn't been chasing Starborns.  If Nic had wanted Harry he would have had him.

This sentence in itself is WAG -- we don't know that anybody "shielded" Maggie. By all appearances and the text of the book, Maggie just ran away from everyone and was away from all her prior connections when she conceived and had Harry.

The whole idea that Harry was the result of this massive conspiracy is WAG more than it is text.

Certainly there are hints that Harry's birth was special, and that now people are very interested in Harry, but the idea that half the supernatural world played midwife to it runs contrary to nearly everything we've learned about that part of Maggie Sr.'s life.
He also apparently trusted that Deirdre wasn't corrupted.

We know Raith attempted to enthrall her, and at least partially succeeded if only for a while.  Certainly she was around long enough to have him acquire enough of whatever he needed to track her.  If it was Raith, why did he wait?  When she ran with whatever secrets she had, why not then, rather than later.  More specifically right after she delivers.  Not before or later but right during the act.  And she didn't hide in Faerie but in the human world.  Here is the relevant part of the semi official timeline.

26 BSF, some time between August and October – Malcolm Dresden and his heavily-pregnant wife Margaret visit the Lincoln Memorial.

26 BSF, October 31: Harry is born. Harry’s mother, now Margaret Gwendolyn Dresden, dies in childbirth. She is murdered by a ritual entropy curse, courtesy of Lord Raith.

And why in the hell did she go to the Lincoln Memorial?  She was Lincoln's contemporary.

[Mr. Death]

And what was Nic after?  I don't know what his plan is, I just know what he does, and it hasn't been chasing Starborns.  If Nic had wanted Harry he would have had him.

Are you forgetting that Nic has tried to recruit Harry like three times by then?

Nic obviously wants Harry on his side.

We know Raith attempted to enthrall her, and at least partially succeeded if only for a while.  Certainly she was around long enough to have him acquire enough of whatever he needed to track her.  If it was Raith, why did he wait?  When she ran with whatever secrets she had, why not then, rather than later.  More specifically right after she delivers.  Not before or later but right during the act.  And she didn't hide in Faerie but in the human world.

Who said he waited? Remember that Maggie was a powerful wizard in her own right who knew Lord Raith well enough to truly hurt him with her death curse. I can very much believe that she was simply able to defend herself and evade him until something big -- like, you know, giving birth -- made it impossible for her to keep up those defenses.

A character taking an action a certain way does not mean that they deliberately intended to do it that way.

Here is the relevant part of the semi official timeline.And why in the hell did she go to the Lincoln Memorial?  She was Lincoln's contemporary.

And that bit tells us absolutely nothing about the meantime.

Again, don't assume any one character is in such total control that everything they do is deliberately, purposefully timed. Lord Raith is no more immune to someone throwing a wrench in his plans than Harry is.

[nadia.skylark]

He also apparently trusted that Deirdre wasn't corrupted.

Devil's advocate again, I've heard a theory that part of the reason Nic was so willing to sacrifice her (without even trying a Squire first) was because he knew she was infected and it was the only way he knew to cure her. (In this theory, her love was too strong for Nemesis to corrupt, but it could have gotten to other things; and Nic is almost certainly planning a rescue mission now that she's free of Nemesis.)

And why in the hell did she go to the Lincoln Memorial?  She was Lincoln's contemporary.

When and where did we find out that Margaret went to the Lincoln Memorial?

[groinkick]

I'm of the opinion that none of the Fallen are Nemfected.  I don't even know if they could be.  I just think that there are two sides in this fight, and some of them have picked the side of the Old Ones, and Outsiders.  Remember Harry was promised by He Who Walks Before that if he joined them that he, and his loved ones would be protected from harm.

My belief is that the Black Council includes some of the Fallen and the idea is that they will be rulers along side the Old Ones in the new world order.

The only nemfected people I can be sure were infected have been Sidhe.  The FBI agents were corrupted but from the Wolf Belts which were just channeling dark magic much the same as a wizard going bad for doing the same thing.  Who besides the Sidhe can we say for certain have been effected by Nemesis?

[nadia.skylark]

I'm of the opinion that none of the Fallen are Nemfected.  I don't even know if they could be.

The Fallen, sure, but what about their hosts?

[morriswalters]

When and where did we find out that Margaret went to the Lincoln Memorial?

I got it from the series timeline hosted on Jim's site.  Maintained by Priscellie.

Are you forgetting that Nic has tried to recruit Harry like three times by then?

Nic obviously wants Harry on his side.

Each time by offering the coin.  It's what he does.

Who said he waited? Remember that Maggie was a powerful wizard in her own right who knew Lord Raith well enough to truly hurt him with her death curse. I can very much believe that she was simply able to defend herself and evade him until something big -- like, you know, giving birth -- made it impossible for her to keep up those defenses.

A character taking an action a certain way does not mean that they deliberately intended to do it that way.
And that bit tells us absolutely nothing about the meantime.

Again, don't assume any one character is in such total control that everything they do is deliberately, purposefully timed. Lord Raith is no more immune to someone throwing a wrench in his plans than Harry is.

I'm all for giving random chance latitude.  So I'm left to reconcile some facts which make no sense.  She was tagged somehow, since they found her to kill her, whoever they is.  And she never planned for the time when she wouldn't be able to shield.

[Mr. Death]

Each time by offering the coin.  It's what he does.

I fail to see how him offering Dresden a coin at all counters the idea that he wants Dresden at least in part because he's a Starborn. Him offering the coin now in no way whatsoever reflects on how he would have done things 30 years earlier in a completely different situation.

I mean, seriously -- letting Harry be raised by anyone else has resulted in Harry wrecking three of Nicodemus's plans, nearly killing him three times, and utterly ruining him.

And you think that's the way Nicodemus preferred to do things, as opposed to raising a Harry that was loyal to him?

I'm all for giving random chance latitude.  So I'm left to reconcile some facts which make no sense.  She was tagged somehow, since they found her to kill her, whoever they is.  And she never planned for the time when she wouldn't be able to shield.

We don't know that they found her. The entropy curse that we see doesn't seem to require a location, just a target. If Lord Raith had known where she is, he wouldn't have been surprised 30 years later when he found out Harry existed.

And, yeah? Giving birth can be a very sudden thing that tends to throw plans out the window, especially if, for instance, it involved her being taken to a hospital without a threshold, and without any wards she might have been relying on.

[morriswalters]

I fail to see how him offering Dresden a coin at all counters the idea that he wants Dresden at least in part because he's a Starborn. Him offering the coin now in no way whatsoever reflects on how he would have done things 30 years earlier in a completely different situation.

I mean, seriously -- letting Harry be raised by anyone else has resulted in Harry wrecking three of Nicodemus's plans, nearly killing him three times, and utterly ruining him.

And you think that's the way Nicodemus preferred to do things, as opposed to raising a Harry that was loyal to him?

I don't know what he prefers, I only know what he did.  Hid didn't adopt Harry.

We don't know that they found her. The entropy curse that we see doesn't seem to require a location, just a target.

The problem I'm having here is why then?  Was the curse just hanging out for a couple of years.

[Mr. Death]

I don't know what he prefers, I only know what he did.  Hid didn't adopt Harry.

And people appear to be positing he didn't do this because he didn't want to do this, and in fact purposefully let Harry be raised by someone else.

When the simpler, far more logical explanation is that Nicodemus simply had no say in the matter.

The fact remains that IF Nicodemus knew what Harry's significance was that early, IF he wanted Harry under his thumb and IF he knew where and how to find him, adopting Harry as a child so he could shape Harry's entire outlook from the start is an infinitely smarter thing to do than letting him be raised partly by a man whose values are directly and completely opposed to Nicodemus and his plans, and then trying to tempt him when he's already a grown man set in his ways.

Just because something ended up happening a certain way is not evidence that Nicodemus intended it to work out that way 30 years ago.

The problem I'm having here is why then?  Was the curse just hanging out for a couple of years.

Who knows? Maybe he was trying constantly, but she knew how to protect herself. Maybe he only got in touch with HWWB right before he killed her with it. Maybe he thought she was just dead because he couldn't find her.

There are numerous explanations. That we don't know which specific one applies does not amount to evidence that he did it on purpose.

[morriswalters]

On the first point we appear to be on the same page.  On the second point I don't think I can't carry the thought any further, and as such we'll just have to leave it as, we'll see.

[kbrizzle]

And people appear to be positing he didn't do this because he didn't want to do this, and in fact purposefully let Harry be raised by someone else.

When the simpler, far more logical explanation is that Nicodemus simply had no say in the matter.

The fact remains that IF Nicodemus knew what Harry's significance was that early, IF he wanted Harry under his thumb and IF he knew where and how to find him, adopting Harry as a child so he could shape Harry's entire outlook from the start is an infinitely smarter thing to do than letting him be raised partly by a man whose values are directly and completely opposed to Nicodemus and his plans, and then trying to tempt him when he's already a grown man set in his ways.

Completely agree with this - my point before about him not caring enough to raise Harry is based on the fact that he didn’t know Harry’s significance at the time. Or perhaps while he was able to direct the Barrabas curse to kill Maggie, he was not able to trace Harry, like the the rest of Maggie’s enemies (& even some allies).

[nadia.skylark]

Or perhaps while he was able to direct the Barrabas curse to kill Maggie, he was not able to trace Harry, like the the rest of Maggie’s enemies (& even some allies).

I'm still not sure why Nic would want to kill Margaret. Malcolm, yes, but what would he accomplish killing Margaret that would not be better accomplished by killing her husband, telling her other enemies where she is, or both? Remember, Jim has said that the Barbarras curse requires a lot of set up, so Nic must have a good reason to use it on the target he chooses.