Nemesis and Hecate

[Yuillegan]

JB constantly says he is a lazy writer. And it strikes me if he is going to the effort to name something, he has a good reason behind it.

Now Hecate is a MINOR goddess of the Greco-Roman Pantheon. And that is interesting because considering how powerful the Faerie queens are (which are hinted to be/or highly connected to Hecate) that gives us a few options. Option A is it is because Hecate got a lot more powerful over time, or was assisted by multiple other beings (gods). This seems most likely considering a few WOJs about why the Fae became what they are. Option B is that she was also much more than simply Hecate. And then there are a few other options I suppose based on the few theories about what gods are.

But if Nemesis (the Outsider contagion) is actually also the goddess Nemesis (and whatever else that might be) from Greco-Roman tradition that makes things interesting. Nemesis funnily enough is a goddess of balance, specifically Vengeance/Revenge. Eye for and eye may have first come from her.

Jim likes to use parallels a lot - and a nice counter to the Hecate (as the Queens) might be Nemesis. But then - wouldn't it make sense if Nemesis was not one being, but several? And who fits that description better than the Walkers. But even if they are not - Nemesis as an angry greek goddess getting revenge make some sense. Certainly one female vs another female is quite.. poetic (for want of a better word). It has a certain symmetry.

But then if that were true - where are the other gods? Jim has said some have died or faded, and some are asleep. And perhaps that is true. Hades exists but then his power apparently has not the effect it used to to have.

Something bugs me a lot about Hecate being so powerful to split into the queens (originally 3). Hecate in the myths is a powerful yet minor goddess of magic. But she isn't anywhere near on the level of Zeus or Hades etc. So if they are dead or less powerful these days - how did she come to outrank them so massively. 

So I have a theory. It is based on several WOJs - particularly the ones about how the beings don't change, just our understanding of them.

I think the Almighty is the Almighty. But to different cultures he is/was Zeus/Brahma/Ahura Mazda/Odin/Ra etc.

And there must always be a Creator/Almighty.

The Devil then, is the Devil. Angra Mainyu/Ahriman/Surt/Ymir/Apep/Apophis/Lucifer/Set etc.

Then there are the major deities Archangels/Mothers/Thor/Hades/Poseiden/Uriel/Michael/Osiris/Shiva etc. There to help govern reality.

Then there are the minor gods. Angels/Hecate/Bast/Baldr/Agni/Queens. They carry out the orders of governance and maintain smaller parts of reality.

Dragons depending on the Dragon, can be Archangel level or minor god level.

And on and on the tree goes. But I think as powerful as any being is - mortal belief in concert is very very powerful. So it changes them, based on how we mostly perceive them. And they fear that, because it changes how they interact with us. Almighty is always the Almighty, but he can't be Zeus when interacting with us. So what is left of that belief goes on being Zeus (either fading or dying) like a discarded limb it falls off the Tree that is the Creator and becomes it's own tree or it dies. Perhaps someone even picks it up and wears it, trying to gain power or influence. That is what I think Odin is - he isn't AND is the original Odin - now that Odin is not seen as the Creator he cannot be the Almighty but he can still be that mask that interacted with the world. So he can still be Odin, just not Odin (the Almighty) unless belief allows him to be again.

Thoughts?

[nadia.skylark]

But if Nemesis (the Outsider contagion) is actually also the goddess Nemesis (and whatever else that might be) from Greco-Roman tradition that makes things interesting. Nemesis funnily enough is a goddess of balance, specifically Vengeance/Revenge.

I'm pretty sure this doesn't work. Being an Outsider would almost certainly preclude being an Insider minor goddess.

Eye for and eye may have first come from her.

I think this actually came from the Code of Hammurabi.

[Yuillegan]

Perhaps. But you are assuming gods come from Inside in the first place - and we know almost zero about Outside and it's purpose/landscape.

And you may be right about the Code. Which is why I said may. Phrases can be hard to trace, and often come from more than one area (especially if a common idea)

[Hankthemoose]

I really like the starting bit about Nemesis and Hecate, but it gets a bit unsteady when you extrapolate to all the other deities. They just don't share enough qualities or power level to be put into such neat boxes. Even at the height of their respective powers, many of your creator gods were not peers to each other or any monotheistic deity.

[g33k]

I'm pretty sure this doesn't work. Being an Outsider would almost certainly preclude being an Insider minor goddess.

...
Yeah.

Unless of course "Nemesis" (the Outsider problem) has Nemfected "Nemesis" (the Greek goddess of Retribution), and we Insider's are just using "N..." as a convenient name for the Problem.

But otherwise... yeah, I think you're right (but that "unless..." is a pretty big one).
 

[exartiem]

If Hecate is the three winter queens, then what triple goddess makes up the Summer queens?

That would be my guess for Nemesis (the goddess).  If she wanted revenge/balance with Hecate, then she might split herself in three to counter her.

Side thought:  what if the Greek Goddess Nemesis is called that because she was the first deity Nemfected?  What if there is a connection beyond just the name?

[Yuillegan]

Hank, the tiers are rather broad I grant you - but they had to be as we only have a few distinct cosmic power levels in the Dresdenverse (Creator, Archangel/Major God, Minor God etc). I am not sure what you mean about the Creator gods not being peers to each other or a monotheistic deity...at different times in history, ancient mythologies were the dominant religion of certain regions. I will grant you there has never been the scale of worship to the Abrahamic God, but that is a factor of population growth more than increased levels of worship (indeed, religious belief is shrinking in most parts of the world).

Exartiem, I wasn't really arguing that Hecate was only the three Queens of Unseelie. She was likely a being that was three parts, then split again and became six parts (Summer and Winter). Why she had to split into Summer and Winter is unknown, but I wonder if it was because the fae were already seasonal based, and in order to become a part of them that was required?

I do agree that it is no mere coincidence that Nemesis (the Outsider, the Adversary) shares the name as another minor greek goddess, when Hecate seems to be the ruler of fae. Maybe she was the first infected. Maybe Nemesis and Hecate were powerful Witches who ruled like gods in Atlantis, a la Hellboy. Maybe it will be like the Chronciles of Amber and there is a Prime/Base reality that all the powerful gods etc come from, which is where Hecate and Nemesis come from except Hecate joined the DV version of the Courts of Chaos.

I certainly expect Jim to pull a fast one on us.

[kbrizzle]

I like the central premise of the argument. So if we extrapolate & say that Thor & Indra are the same base thunder god, just different regional/ cultural/ religious avatars, then Hecate is just the Greek avatar of the global goddess of magic.

So while Hecate is a minor goddess in the Greek & Norse (Atropos & Skuld - Norse Fates) pantheons, as the base goddess of magic, she is also simultaneously worshipped as Isis, Kali or the Celtic triple goddess (Eiru being one of them, & whom Ireland is named after), so she is tremendously powerful.

A WAG about Hecate is that some of her avatars can be extrapolated to be the base mother goddess - as MS tells Harry in CD - he hasn’t gotten fundamental enough in guessing their true name. It is likely Mother Nature.

Separately, the goddess Nemesis is the daughter of Oceanus, the ancient Greek god of the river that separates the habitable world from the Underworld & Elysium. He also has the lower body of a serpent or dragon. He is re-branded as a river god Titan in Classical Greek mythology & made a son of Uranus (Zeus’ grandfather) & Gaia. Perhaps he is the progenitor of the Fomor? I like the idea of Nemesis being Nfected as well.

[segaily]

I do not find it hard to believe that Hecate could have grown greatly in power while so many more major old gods faded away.  We know that belief has a lot of power.  People stopped believing in Zeus so he faded.  Maybe Hecate had an advantage in that all she needed was for people to believe in magic not her directly for her to gain in power or it could be that wizards know she was around and respected her more then the other old gods and it was enough for her power to continue to grow as all the others faded.       

[kbrizzle]

@segaily
I’m not sure if belief in magic in general would empower Hecate much - if that were the case, Mab now would be much weaker than she was a few hundred years ago. I think the belief has to focused towards one of Hecate’s avatars like Isis or Kali.

[exartiem]

I don't think Mab or the other queens rely on belief the way the gods did/do.  They draw power from human nature more than worship.  Summer draws from the emotions that have to do with renewal, birth/rebirth, growth.  Winter more from endurance, despair, survival.  All humans feel these things and thus empower the queens even if no one knows their names.

The old gods, however, needed people to attach their names to various aspects of nature in order to draw that power.

Hecate could have anticipated the decline of the old gods worshipers and created this shift into a new dynamic, becoming the mantles of the three winter queens.  Nemesis could have gone with her to balance her as the summer queens.

[Bad Alias]

I'm not sure if they require belief, but I'm fairly sure they require human awareness at the very least. That's why Mab had the Grimms publish their collection of fairy tales.

[kbrizzle]

One of my WAGs is that the creation of the Fae is supposed to to supplant the old gods. The Fae do not require belief, but awareness as Bad Alias points out - this is easier to accomplish than belief, especially in an increasingly technological world. As long as people are aware the Fae exist, they will remain powerful enough to guard the Gates.

If an old god was created by the beliefs of its followers, we know (from WoJ) that the Fae were created out of a Darkhallow-like ritual. Therefore the Fae do not need to channel the choices/ beliefs of mortals into power - their power is from a different source.

Additionally, one of the other names Harry calls MW (which she agrees are true) is Skuld - the youngest of the 3 chief Norns (Norse Fates) who also functions as a Valkyrie. Here is an interesting bit about the 3 chief Norns from Wikipedia:

It appears from Völuspá and Vafţrúđnismál that the three main norns were not originally goddesses but giantesses (Jotuns), and that their arrival ended the early days of bliss for the gods, but that they come for the good of mankind.
Völuspá relates that three giantesses of huge might are reported to have arrived to the gods from Jotunheim

Since we know the Jotun were the previous guardians at the gate, this creates some interesting connections between the Fae & Odin.

I’ve also recently read an article on classical antiquity that describes the Greek goddess Themis - a Titan older than Zeus as a goddess of judgement & balancer of scales (seems like a good guess as to the Mother’s name). She is sometimes known as the mother of the Greek Fates (Atropos is one of them) with Zeus as the father.

Additionally, there were 3 aspects to Themis (like a proto-triple goddess):

• Themis: goddess of justice
• Nemesis: goddess of retribution
• Eleos: goddess of redemption