If the Council had tried to execute Molly in Proven Guilty...

[nadia.skylark]

Would Harry have called Lasciel's coin to keep her (or Michael) safe?

[DonBugen]

No. Harry's proven several times that he would rather die than succumb to that power, and especially in Proven Guilty. Besides, if Dresden suddenly had to fight all the assembled White Council at the end of Proven Guilty, I'm not sure that even Lasciel would have been able to save anyone. Presumably, Lash knows this, which is why she doesn't use it as an opportunity.

[peregrine]

If he had, I doubt it would have worked. 

[nadia.skylark]

No. Harry's proven several times that he would rather die than succumb to that power, and especially in Proven Guilty.

He'd rather die, yes. But would he rather allow innocents to die? That's why he started working with Lasciel's shadow in the first place, after all--it was the only way to save innocent lives.

Besides, if Dresden suddenly had to fight all the assembled White Council at the end of Proven Guilty, I'm not sure that even Lasciel would have been able to save anyone.

If he had, I doubt it would have worked.

I don't believe it would be enough to let him win, no. But it might have been enough to, for example, shield him and Molly well enough to open a Way to the Nevernever and make a run for it, or create illusions of him and Molly good enough to fool the assembled wizards, veil them, and sneak out the back.

Presumably, Lash knows this, which is why she doesn't use it as an opportunity.

Personally, I think that Lash doesn't make that offer here because she's not particularly well integrated into the story in this book. Proven Guilty was supposed to be before Dead Beat, after all, and in my opinion the Lash storyline shows it. (Except for the end conversation with Michael. That was excellent.)

[Cozarkian]

No. Let's presume Harry could be persuaded that Lasciel's knowledge would enable him to save Molly and escape. What is life like after that? He's on the run from the White Council with an untrained apprentice. He would recognize is only chance of surviving long term would be to sign up with the Denarians. That means he would be joining the bad guys and bringing Molly over to the bad guys. He would not sacrifice Molly's soul in order to save her life.

The difference in Changes is that Maggie was being held by bad guys. Thus, Maggie wouldn't have to spend her life running from the good guys and wouldn't have to turn evil to stay alive. For Dresden, innocents' souls > innocents' lives > his soul > his life.

[nadia.skylark]

No. Let's presume Harry could be persuaded that Lasciel's knowledge would enable him to save Molly and escape. What is life like after that? He's on the run from the White Council with an untrained apprentice. He would recognize is only chance of surviving long term would be to sign up with the Denarians. That means he would be joining the bad guys and bringing Molly over to the bad guys. He would not sacrifice Molly's soul in order to save her life.

He could also get out of there, then give Molly to Father Forthill/Michael to hide.

[Cozarkian]

He could also get out of there, then give Molly to Father Forthill/Michael to hide.

And leave an untrained magically active kid to learn on her own? Harry is wise enough to know that if she doesn't get proper training she is likely to become corrupted by the power - especially given that she had already started down a particular road that is paved with good intentions. Molly's only good chance was to be trained by Harry, Eb, or someone similar. 

[DonBugen]

He'd rather die, yes. But would he rather allow innocents to die? That's why he started working with Lasciel's shadow in the first place, after all--it was the only way to save innocent lives.

Yes. That's exactly why Harry doesn't take up the coin when Lash offers it before running Little Chicago. She poses the same exact dilemma you're doing now, and Harry refuses.

Personally, I think that Lash doesn't make that offer here because she's not particularly well integrated into the story in this book. Proven Guilty was supposed to be before Dead Beat, after all, and in my opinion the Lash storyline shows it. (Except for the end conversation with Michael. That was excellent.)

This is poor reasoning. You're saying that Jim left a huge gaping hole in his story because he was originally planning on a different order, and just didn't make the continuity work out. No. He clearly established why Harry wasn't using Lash to do any death-defying feats.

[nadia.skylark]

And leave an untrained magically active kid to learn on her own? Harry is wise enough to know that if she doesn't get proper training she is likely to become corrupted by the power - especially given that she had already started down a particular road that is paved with good intentions. Molly's only good chance was to be trained by Harry, Eb, or someone similar.

Well, I agree it's not ideal, but neither is Molly having her head cut off.

Yes. That's exactly why Harry doesn't take up the coin when Lash offers it before running Little Chicago. She poses the same exact dilemma you're doing now, and Harry refuses.

Fair enough. I usually try to pretend that this scene doesn't exist, because it feels so OoC for Lash.

This is poor reasoning. You're saying that Jim left a huge gaping hole in his story because he was originally planning on a different order, and just didn't make the continuity work out. No. He clearly established why Harry wasn't using Lash to do any death-defying feats.

No, I'm saying that Jim left out a couple of sentences wherein Lash offers to help if needed and Harry refuses, but is left uneasy, wondering what he would do if the Council refused to listen. If he actually took up the coin, it would have been in the middle of the pitched battle that didn't happen. Lash would have done her slowing-down-subjective-time trick and hit Harry over the head with the fact that Molly was going to die, he promised he would do everything he could to save her, what was it going to do to Michael to come back and find his daughter dead, was Harry really going to fail him, etc. And it might not have worked, but it also might have, I think.

[peregrine]

Fair enough. I usually try to pretend that this scene doesn't exist, because it feels so OoC for Lash.

Why?

[nadia.skylark]

Why?

It's just so sloppy. I mean, she lives inside his head. She must know that pain is not enough to stop him, and that he'd rather die than abandon an innocent person in danger.

What she ought to have done, if she was acting in a manner consistent with her characterization in other places, is point out the problem with using Molly's baby hair, and optionally offer to teach him how to examine Little Chicago for mistakes to make sure it wouldn't blow him up. This would encourage him to trust her and rely on her for advice, which is what she's been doing in nearly every other scene in which she appears.

Also, I take back what I said about Lash not being well-integrated into this book. She is, mostly. On attempting to enumerate all the scenes in which she appears in this book, I remembered all the really good scenes. It's just this scene and the one at the beginning that stand out to me as being problematic.

[DonBugen]

I disagree with this "what Lash should have done" routine.  If Harry was any other moral - ANY other mortal that Lasciel had seduced in the past - this would have been the knockout blow.  Lasciel is presumably intelligent enough to have deduced where this trip is ending up.  Running Little Chicago is possibly the least dangerous of all the things Harry is about to attempt, and it's going to get his head blown to pieces.  Lash *knows* that she's not going to get anywhere with the "let me slowly guide you" routine - she NEEDS to offer him the coin.  She does his best attempt, and he refuses - and by doing so, accepts that he may die by his decision.  There's nothing else that she can offer.

If Harry didn't accept Lasciel when Molly was being tortured to death in Faerie, I don't see him suddenly changing his mind because everything's suddenly immediate.  That would imply a decision that was only half-heartedly thought out.  Harry is 100% behind his decision.

The situation you pose is if suddenly there was a battle that broke out in the middle, when the Merlin declared Molly guilty.  Yet I don't see this as being any more hopeless of a situation than storming Arctus Tor, or fighting Eldest Fetch - in that they are completely hopeless, save for information that Harry doesn't have - that he has Summer Fire, or that all of Winter is away.

Lastly...  I feel like you're completely forgetting about Harry's last gambit - that this is, in itself, a leap of faith.  Harry places his faith in TWG, even if he isn't willing to really admit it to himself, that either he had the power to bring Molly back or that Michael was somehow involved and would appear.  When every situation got grimmer - learning that the Merlin had all the votes, that his defense of Molly was over-reaching, that the Merlin pronounced Molly's death - he got more resilient and audacious. 

I mean - there's absolutely NO reason AT ALL to demand that everyone must wait while the Gatekeeper makes his last vote.  The chances against something suddenly changing in the few minutes it would take would be trillions to one.  Yet Dresden DOES demand this, and they DO wait...  not because this is the only option available to him, but because Dresden actually has faith that TWG will pull through.

To think that things might suddenly get a bit spicy, and look dire, and Lash might do her time slowy thing, and Dresden might think, "You know, screw it, this faith thing seemed like a good idea, but I might as well turn into a monster after all to rescue this kid who CERTAINLY will turn into a monster without proper guidance, which I can't provide anymore - THAT is contrary to his character.  Because the more dire things look, the more certain Dresden is that those doors are going to burst open and salvation is on the other side.

[nadia.skylark]

I disagree with this "what Lash should have done" routine.  If Harry was any other moral - ANY other mortal that Lasciel had seduced in the past - this would have been the knockout blow.  Lasciel is presumably intelligent enough to have deduced where this trip is ending up.  Running Little Chicago is possibly the least dangerous of all the things Harry is about to attempt, and it's going to get his head blown to pieces.  Lash *knows* that she's not going to get anywhere with the "let me slowly guide you" routine - she NEEDS to offer him the coin.  She does his best attempt, and he refuses - and by doing so, accepts that he may die by his decision.  There's nothing else that she can offer.

The issue isn't that she offers him the coin--it's that she thinks hurting him is going to get her anything.

The situation you pose is if suddenly there was a battle that broke out in the middle, when the Merlin declared Molly guilty.  Yet I don't see this as being any more hopeless of a situation than storming Arctus Tor, or fighting Eldest Fetch - in that they are completely hopeless, save for information that Harry doesn't have - that he has Summer Fire, or that all of Winter is away.

I'm not sure if it would be more hopeless or not, but I think Harry does. Harry specifically thinks that he's got no chance if a fight breaks out when he's talking to Charity beforehand.

Lastly...  I feel like you're completely forgetting about Harry's last gambit - that this is, in itself, a leap of faith.  Harry places his faith in TWG, even if he isn't willing to really admit it to himself, that either he had the power to bring Molly back or that Michael was somehow involved and would appear.  When every situation got grimmer - learning that the Merlin had all the votes, that his defense of Molly was over-reaching, that the Merlin pronounced Molly's death - he got more resilient and audacious. 

I mean - there's absolutely NO reason AT ALL to demand that everyone must wait while the Gatekeeper makes his last vote.  The chances against something suddenly changing in the few minutes it would take would be trillions to one.  Yet Dresden DOES demand this, and they DO wait...  not because this is the only option available to him, but because Dresden actually has faith that TWG will pull through.

To think that things might suddenly get a bit spicy, and look dire, and Lash might do her time slowy thing, and Dresden might think, "You know, screw it, this faith thing seemed like a good idea, but I might as well turn into a monster after all to rescue this kid who CERTAINLY will turn into a monster without proper guidance, which I can't provide anymore - THAT is contrary to his character.  Because the more dire things look, the more certain Dresden is that those doors are going to burst open and salvation is on the other side.

You mean, like it was contrary to Harry's character in Dead Beat, where he explicitly said he was going to do the faith thing when he was being tortured by Cassius, only to turn around the moment he was freed and agree to work with Lasciel's shadow for the first time ever because he couldn't stand by while innocents were killed?

[DonBugen]

The issue isn't that she offers him the coin--it's that she thinks hurting him is going to get her anything.

  My point is that I don't think there's any tactic Lash could take at this point that would result any differently - either being a source of aid or a source of danger.

I'm not sure if it would be more hopeless or not, but I think Harry does. Harry specifically thinks that he's got no chance if a fight breaks out when he's talking to Charity beforehand.

Yup.  Completely hopeless.  That's kind of the idea.  The greater the odds are stacked against, the more likely that TWG would be stepping in.

You mean, like it was contrary to Harry's character in Dead Beat, where he explicitly said he was going to do the faith thing when he was being tortured by Cassius, only to turn around the moment he was freed and agree to work with Lasciel's shadow for the first time ever because he couldn't stand by while innocents were killed?

  Yup.  Because here, he's taking Michael's leap, by proxy.  He's rules-lawyered himself into believing that the Almighty will interject, not on his behalf, but on Molly and Michael's.

And... he's not wrong.  That's exactly what happens.  Lash knows it, too.  Lash typically doesn't interact when she knows that rescue is just around the corner (for example, she could have done the exact same thing when Morgan was going to kill Harry in Dead Beat, and Harry decided to die.)  So the only way your proposition would work is if TWG is on vacation or something, and NO help is coming.  Even then, no dice - because even at the height of her influence at the end of White Night, Harry was fine being destroyed and letting his loved ones die rather than take up the coin.

The only reason it's even an option in Changes - and not an option he ever chose - is not because it's just "an innocent."  It's because it's his daughter.  His hurt, scared, vulnerable daughter, and he swore to himself that he would never, ever, EVER let any child of his suffer.  Half-warlock darkling path teen Molly who would turn herself into a monster anyways doesn't get that same consideration.  Not by a long shot.

[nadia.skylark]

My point is that I don't think there's any tactic Lash could take at this point that would result any differently - either being a source of aid or a source of danger.

I agree--I just still think that she was OoC.

Yup.  Completely hopeless.  That's kind of the idea.  The greater the odds are stacked against, the more likely that TWG would be stepping in.

But given that my premise is essentially "but what if He didn't step in" this isn't really relevant.

Yup.  Because here, he's taking Michael's leap, by proxy.  He's rules-lawyered himself into believing that the Almighty will interject, not on his behalf, but on Molly and Michael's.

And... he's not wrong.  That's exactly what happens.  Lash knows it, too.  Lash typically doesn't interact when she knows that rescue is just around the corner (for example, she could have done the exact same thing when Morgan was going to kill Harry in Dead Beat, and Harry decided to die.)  So the only way your proposition would work is if TWG is on vacation or something, and NO help is coming.

So your actual argument is not that Harry would never pick up a coin in the circumstances stated in my premise--it is that my premise is ludicrous and invalid.

Even then, no dice - because even at the height of her influence at the end of White Night, Harry was fine being destroyed and letting his loved ones die rather than take up the coin.

Well, all the people he cared about had already escaped, and also he thought he did have a way out if he could convince Lash to take it.

The only reason it's even an option in Changes - and not an option he ever chose - is not because it's just "an innocent."  It's because it's his daughter.  His hurt, scared, vulnerable daughter, and he swore to himself that he would never, ever, EVER let any child of his suffer.  Half-warlock darkling path teen Molly who would turn herself into a monster anyways doesn't get that same consideration.  Not by a long shot.

Point, although I wonder how much Harry might be influenced by not failing Michael--though that's admittedly a two-edged sword.