Is there anything Mab can't command Harry to do? (Getting out of the WK idea.)

[nadia.skylark]

The effects of iron on the Mantle and the effects of breaking Winter Law are distinct and different.

Yes. And why that is is an interesting question.

And Harry isn't surprised in Cold Days that his legs cease to work when he attempts to break Winter Law..

I read that as him being too busy panicking to be surprised.

Remember that the only weasel in the room is Harry.  Mab has been true to her word.

Mab can be (and demonstrably is) a weasel despite techically always keeping her word. Remember the parasite thing?

I read his experience as a warning to Harry about the trying to weasel out yet again.

How is Harry trying to weasel out of anything? He never agreed to abide by Winter Law--he had only just found out that Winter Law was even a thing.

Possibly the leg repair is an enchantment separate from the Mantle.

Possibly. But if it is a non-permanent fae enchantment, the question remains: why wasn't it affected by iron?

[peregrine]

Someone mentioned that Winter Law may have a way for Harry to get out of the mantel. He didn't agree to a term of service, so, in theory, the two or three years he's been the Winter Knight may have completely satisfied his end of the deal.

It may have satisfied his deal, but that doesn't mean he can get out of it.  There's still the issue of how one becomes an Ex-Winter Knight without dying in the process.

[groinkick]

You may want to think of the mantle as a supernatural exoskeleton.  She didn't fix his back.  Given sufficient time his back will heal itself.  All the better to keep Harry in line.

Jim said she did fix his back.  The deal was for his back to be healed, and she followed through on the deal.  It's not the first time Mab has healed anyone.  I do believe she healed Mac from a gunshot wound. 

[morriswalters]

Yes. And why that is is an interesting question.

Not really.  Since we don't know how the Mantles work, period.  It need be plausible, only in the sense that inflatable tanks were plausible in the run up to D-Day in France. 

However the biggest difference is that one instance paralyzes Harry again and the other doesn't.  Canon would suggest that Harry still carries the Mantle in both cases.  Since the Mantle is quasi sentient it may well be in the case of the nail that the Mantle is hurting and in the case of Winter Law the Mantle knows the law even if Harry doesn't, and reminds him by removing whatever mechanism that keeps Harry functioning.

I read that as him being too busy panicking to be surprised.

He correctly evaluates his mistake, which you can see from how his legs start working again.  And look at my response to peregrine at the end.

Mab can be (and demonstrably is) a weasel despite technically always keeping her word. Remember the parasite thing?

A weasel that keeps her word, which is more than you can say for Harry.  Murphy tells him so.  To answer your second question  In the relevant exchange Toot tells Harry it's Winter law and Harry says he didn't sign on, at which point the Mantle shows him the error of his way.  While Harry may not know Winter Law, the Mantle does.

Possibly. But if it is a non-permanent fae enchantment, the question remains: why wasn't it affected by iron?

Just because the Mantle is having a bad day it doesn't mean that it just quit working, it means it just quits working well.

Jim said she did fix his back.  The deal was for his back to be healed, and she followed through on the deal.  It's not the first time Mab has healed anyone.  I do believe she healed Mac from a gunshot wound. 

It turns out that the book doesn't support that position.

That scared the hell out of me and confirmed one of my worst fears.  When I'd consented to serve Mab, my back had been broken, my spine damaged.  Taking up the mantle had covered what would have probably been a crippling and long terms injury.  But without it, my body was only mortal.  Better than most at recovering over time, but still human.  Without the mantle, I wouldn't have legs, bladder or bowel control, or, most importantly, independence.

[Mira]

Jim said she did fix his back.  The deal was for his back to be healed, and she followed through on the deal.  It's not the first time Mab has healed anyone.  I do believe she healed Mac from a gunshot wound.

  Exactly, she kept her part of the bargain, she also followed through on what she didn't promise.

[nadia.skylark]

A weasel that keeps her word, which is more than you can say for Harry.  Murphy tells him so.

He's broken one promise. Admittedly, he broke that multiple times, but so far as I can remember he hasn't broken a promise since Grave Peril. These days, I would say that he's more a weasel in Mab's style.

To answer your second question  In the relevant exchange Toot tells Harry it's Winter law and Harry says he didn't sign on, at which point the Mantle shows him the error of his way.  While Harry may not know Winter Law, the Mantle does.

This doesn't answer my second question. Harry doesn't know what Winter Law is. Sure, it sounds important, but for all he knows it is part of the bindings on Winter faeries and it's part of his purpose as Winter Knight that he is not bound by it. After all, Harry can still lie despite having signed on as Winter Knight and iron doesn't bother him unless he's stabbed with it, so there's no reason for him to assume that just because Toot subject to a restriction he would be as well.

Just because the Mantle is having a bad day it doesn't mean that it just quit working, it means it just quits working well.

...is there any evidence that the mantle is working apart from Harry's back being broken? Because I thought all the evidence pointed to the opposite.

It turns out that the book doesn't support that position.

There's a WoJ somewhere saying that this point is deliberately unclear, and Harry doesn't know everything about what's going on. As such, I feel fairly confident that Harry contradicting my does not prove my position wrong.

[groinkick]

It turns out that the book doesn't support that position.

The deal was that Mab would heal Harry if he became her Winter Knight.  When Harry was going to break the laws of Winter, Mab reminded him of the deal.  If he breaks his end of the bargain, Mab would return him to the state she found him in when they made their bargain.

Also Harry has been wrong in the books before.  It wouldn't be unlike Mab to make him think that by giving up the Mantle he'd be paralyzed again.  Just like Leah convinced Harry she gave him the ability to beat his former mentor when in reality she just gave his confidence a boost.

[morriswalters]

He's broken one promise. Admittedly, he broke that multiple times, but so far as I can remember he hasn't broken a promise since Grave Peril. These days, I would say that he's more a weasel in Mab's style.

He lies in Changes.  Which leads to Ghost Story.

This doesn't answer my second question. Harry doesn't know what Winter Law is. Sure, it sounds important, but for all he knows it is part of the bindings on Winter faeries and it's part of his purpose as Winter Knight that he is not bound by it. After all, Harry can still lie despite having signed on as Winter Knight and iron doesn't bother him unless he's stabbed with it, so there's no reason for him to assume that just because Toot subject to a restriction he would be as well.

Harry doesn't, the Mantle does.  There is an existing legal mechanism in the real world which says ignorance of the law is no excuse.  And in point of fact, this appears to be true in Winter.  There is no Winter Law that says Harry can't lie.

...is there any evidence that the mantle is working apart from Harry's back being broken? Because I thought all the evidence pointed to the opposite.

So you want to ignore the broken back, because why?  The text points to the Mantle being disrupted, which is different to it being broken.  If you break your collar bone I'm pretty sure your whole day is gonna be shot, but your heart won't stop beating.

There's a WoJ somewhere saying that this point is deliberately unclear, and Harry doesn't know everything about what's going on. As such, I feel fairly confident that Harry contradicting my does not prove my position wrong.

Well maybe, I haven't seen it, but I acknowledge that it might exist.  However it is pretty clear during the attack in the car Harry never loses his legs. And when Harry attempts to break Winter law by interrogating  Lacuna his legs quit working.

@groinkick
Why would Mab heal Harry if she can use the Mantle to achieve the same results?  By not healing him she retains leverage to manipulate him in the future as needed.  She has a history of that kind of thing.

[peregrine]

Let's not forget that Harry outright and knowingly lied to Susan when talking about how the armor would protect her in Chichen Itza.  He knew steel would go through fae enchantment like hot knife through butter, and was Winter Knight at that point.

[nadia.skylark]

He lies in Changes.  Which leads to Ghost Story.

Fair enough.

Harry doesn't, the Mantle does.  There is an existing legal mechanism in the real world which says ignorance of the law is no excuse.  And in point of fact, this appears to be true in Winter.  There is no Winter Law that says Harry can't lie.

This is all completely true. None of it refutes my point that Harry is not trying to weasel out of anything in that scene.

So you want to ignore the broken back, because why?

Because I believe that Mab stuck an illusion in his head that it was broken, and that his back is separate from the mantle. If there is other evidence that the mantle is still active when Harry is stuck with iron, it would be evidence against this belief.

Why would Mab heal Harry if she can use the Mantle to achieve the same results?

Because her deal required her to heal Harry before he became her Knight.

Let's not forget that Harry outright and knowingly lied to Susan when talking about how the armor would protect her in Chichen Itza.  He knew steel would go through fae enchantment like hot knife through butter, and was Winter Knight at that point.

Absolutely, but that wasn't breaking a promise.

[Mira]

The deal was that Mab would heal Harry if he became her Winter Knight.  When Harry was going to break the laws of Winter, Mab reminded him of the deal.  If he breaks his end of the bargain, Mab would return him to the state she found him in when they made their bargain.

Also Harry has been wrong in the books before.  It wouldn't be unlike Mab to make him think that by giving up the Mantle he'd be paralyzed again.  Just like Leah convinced Harry she gave him the ability to beat his former mentor when in reality she just gave his confidence a boost.

Exactly, when you bargain with the Fae, especially with Mab you need an iron clad written contract and a electron microscope for reading the fine print and a bevy of lawyers and more than likely you'd still lose...

[morriswalters]

Because her deal required her to heal Harry before he became her Knight.

No. I quoted the relevant passage before, the term was restore to health.

“That before my service begins, you restore my body to health. That you grant me time enough to rescue my daughter and take her to safety, and strength and knowledge enough to succeed. And you give me your word that you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love.”

Being how he says in Cold Days that he can bench press 400 kg I'll call that in good health.  This is Mab following the letter of her word.  She has never asked Harry to do anything that she didn't have a way of coercing his cooperation.

This is all completely true. None of it refutes my point that Harry is not trying to weasel out of anything in that scene.

I'll grant that.  This is Harry doing what he always does, denying that any rules can bind him.

Because I believe that Mab stuck an illusion in his head that it was broken, and that his back is separate from the mantle. If there is other evidence that the mantle is still active when Harry is stuck with iron, it would be evidence against this belief.

I give you evidence in the form of the books text and you tell me that other than that what else can I show you.  I don't think it works that way.

[nadia.skylark]

No. I quoted the relevant passage before, the term was restore to health.

It's debatable what "before my service begins" means. It could go either way.

I give you evidence in the form of the books text and you tell me that other than that what else can I show you.  I don't think it works that way.

Normally I'd agree with you, but in this case I'm citing a WoJ which specifically says that the characters' perceptions are not reliable. (I'll try to find the exact wording when I'm not so busy--give me a day or two.)

[Mira]

    “That before my service begins, you restore my body to health. That you grant me time enough to rescue my daughter and take her to safety, and strength and knowledge enough to succeed. And you give me your word that you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love.”

   He officially became Winter Knight after Slate's throat was cut and he had sex with Mab..  However just beforehe became her knight, his back was healed otherwise he could do neither.  Then he asks permission to go and save his daughter since he'd then be her knight. 

[groinkick]

Let's not forget that Harry outright and knowingly lied to Susan when talking about how the armor would protect her in Chichen Itza.  He knew steel would go through fae enchantment like hot knife through butter, and was Winter Knight at that point.

Harry could lie his butt off as Winter Knight.  What he couldn't do was break the laws of hospitality.

   He officially became Winter Knight after Slate's throat was cut and he had sex with Mab..  However just beforehe became her knight, his back was healed otherwise he could do neither.  Then he asks permission to go and save his daughter since he'd then be her knight.

Great point!